SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DEPARTMENT NO. 57

HON. PAUL G. BRECKENRIDGE, JR., JUDGE

REPORTER'S DAILY TRANSCRIPT

Monday, May 21, 1984

VOLUME 16

Pages 2521 - 2661, incl.

I

INDEX FOR VOLUME [16] Pages 2521 - 2661, incl.

WITNESS

EXHIBITS

II

EXHIBITS

2521

---0---

THE COURT: Very well, we are back in session.

Mr. Armstrong, you may retake the stand.

GERALD ARMSTRONG,

THE COURT: Just state your name again for the record, sir. You are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: Gerald Armstrong.

THE COURT: You may continue, Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: Yes, thank you, Your Honor.

First, I'd like to straighten up something in the daily transcript. I happened to be looking through over the weekend Friday's transcript, page 2495.

I was asking Mr. Armstrong about periods of time -- about talking to Laurel Sullivan about periods of time when she could be openly a Scientologist and periods of times when she couldn't, and I am referring to lines 20 through 22 in particular. Mr. Flynn says out of the blue, "This is out of Laurel Sullivan's PC files, Your Honor?"

And I am purported to answer, "Partly, Mr. Flynn."

In truth and in fact, I said, "Hardly, Mr. Flynn."

2522

THE COURT: I think that is correct.

MR. FLYNN: I think that is correct, too.

THE COURT: We will order that it be corrected.

2523

MR. FLYNN: No; it is correct that Mr. Harris said what he said, not --

MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, I have an exhibit which is entitled "Sea Organization Contract of Employment. Confidential."

May it be marked Plaintiff's next in order? I believe it would be 40.

THE COURT: 40 for identification.

CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

BY MR. HARRIS:

Q Mr. Armstrong, I'm going to show you what has been marked exhibit 40 for identification; the names have been blocked out, but does that appear to be the form of the Sea Org contract that you signed?

A It appears to be.

Q Now, while you were on board the ship you indicated that you received what was called orders of the day which was the daily news letter and orders in respect to the ship; is that correct?

A Yes.

MR. HARRIS: I have a document entitled "Sea Organization” dated 3 May, 1971; Your Honor, may that be marked exhibit 41?

THE COURT: Yes, it may.

MR. HARRIS: And similarly, I have one dated 10 August, 1971; may that be marked exhibit 42?

THE COURT: Yes.

2524

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Now, Mr. Armstrong, I gave your counsel all of these items this morning; have you had a chance to look at these?

A I have seen that they are there. I have not had a chance to go through them in any detail.

Q By the way, while you have been on cross-examination have you been conferring with Mr. Flynn about your cross-examination?

A Do you mean while I am sitting up here?

Q No; on breaks, like on the weekend, at nights, coffee breaks and the like.

A Mr. Flynn and I do talk.

Q About your cross-examination?

A I think even that has come up.

Q would you look at exhibit 41 and exhibit 42 and tell me if you recognize those as items that you received aboard the ship?

A Yes.

Q And in each of them you are mentioned as doing very well; is that correct?

A In each of these documents?

Q Yes, exhibits 41 and 42.

A Let me just check here.

Q Well, let's do it this way --

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, this is symptomatic of the entire problem. They have taken two days out of four years.

THE COURT: Let them do their two days. I don't want to get into the other 1,500 days. Let's see what happens

2525

on these two days.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Look on exhibit 41 on the sixth page, item No. 15; do you see that?

A Yes.

Q Commendable to you, the ship's driver?

A Yes.

Q On exhibit 42, page 5, item 16?

A Yes.

2526

Q And on page 6 of exhibit 42 at item 23, you are telling people what your schedule is and so on?

A Yeah.

Q Now, it says, "mission firings"; what is that?

A Is it in this --

Q Yes, "mission firings, Telex runs" et cetera.

A Okay.

Q I what is a "firing"?

A Missionaires were briefed on board the ship and sent out to various ports internationally from the ship, and the sending off was called the firing.

Q Please turn to page 4 of exhibit 42 under "ethics" and directing your attention to paragraphs 10 and ll; you see those?

A Yes.

Q The first one, "Bob Prior, having successfully applied the liability formula is upgraded to nonexistence."

Did you understand that when you read it on the ship?

A Yes.

Q And do you understand it now?

A To some degree, yes.

Q And No. 11, "Morton Smithberg, having applied the treason formula, is upgraded to enemy."

A Yes.

Q These are conditions in the Scientology ethic system; is that correct?

A Yes.

2527

Q Treason being below enemy?

A It depends where you are.

MR. HARRIS: I have a package of documents, Your Honor affixed with a paper clip entitled "Operation and Transport Corporation, Limited." May that be marked exhibit 43?

THE COURT: Yes, exhibit 43.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: would you look at that and see if you can identify your handwriting on that.

Have you looked at that exhibit now?

A Yes.

Q Do you recognize the exhibit?

A I have seen such documents before. Appears to be my initials at various points on it authorizing payment.

I couldn't tell you the particular incident, but I do recognize this type of document, yes.

2528

Q The second from the last item in the packet is a bill from a marine surveyor: do you note that?

A Yes.

Q As ship's rep, did you have responsibility for assuring that the surveyor inspected the ship for safety?

Yes or no.

MR. FLYNN: As a yacht, or as a passenger vessel?

THE COURT: If you know, you can so state, if you don't you can so state.

THE WITNESS: I don't recall if I had this particular one or if it was my job at that time.

There was one done that was arranged by Norman Starkey who was then the captain of the ship. We did meet regarding getting such a thing done.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: In fact, you knew more than one inspection, did you not?

A Yes.

Q And in your ship's rep function, one of the things that you needed to present to the port authorities was a SOLAS Inspection; right?

A No.

Q when you went on mission to secure safe ports, wasn't it a fact that you took the latest SOLAS Inspection report with you into those ports? Yes or no.

A I took it. It was not a necessary thing. It was a PR gimmick.

Q A PR gimmick?

A Yes.

2529

Q You didn't show it to anybody for the purpose of assuring that the ship was in safe condition in their port; is You didn't show it to anybody for the purpose of, that correct? Yes or no, Mr. Armstrong?

A Well, then, no.

Q It was the case, was it not, Mr. Armstrong, that you were a crew member of the ship?

A Yes.

Q And you learned various posts aboard the ship that had to do with sailing the ship?

A Yes.

Q And you were listed as crew aboard the ship?

A When you say "you," you mean everyone?

Q You, Mr. Armstrong.

A Yes.

Q were you aware, Mr. Armstrong, that the Church of Scientology of California was paying the bills incurred by OTC?

A I heard something to that effect many years later, approximately about ll years later.

MR. HARRIS: I have a document, Your Honor; may it be marked exhibit 44? It is from the Republic of Panama, the Provincial Court of Panama.

THE COURT: Yes. It will be marked 44.

Did you want this original back, Mr. Harris, or did you want this marked?

MR. HARRIS: We can substitute it, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I'll return it to you, then.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: In the port captain's --

2530

let me give Your Honor this one. It is already marked with a "43."

Q In the port captain's office or in the ship's rep's office were the Articles of Incorporation of OTC, I believe you said, Mr. Armstrong.

A Yes.

Q Do you recognize exhibit 44 as the articles that you saw when you were in that office?

A Yes.

Q Do you recognize exhibit 44 as the articles that you saw when you were in that office?

A I believe so.

Q Now, you also st[a]ted, as I recall, that there was some information on shares that were kept in the port captain's office file that you saw; right?

A Yes.

Q Shares of OTC?

A Well, there were some stock certificates there. And I don't recall if they were OTS or OTC.

I do recall this note here on whatever page this is of the 98 1 and l stocks.

Q And I take it while you were observing these corporate documents in the port captain's office, that you were doing this for a reason; right?

A That I was doing which with them there?

Q Observing these items.

A I don't recall if there was a particular reason other than the fact that I saw the documents; they were in the

2531

files; they predated my time there.

I was not sent there to look at them for some particular reason, but I did see them.

Q Did you take the articles of incorportation of OTC with you as ship's rep or port captain to assure safe ports?

A I don't know if we ever took the articles. We may have.

But it would have been the registration of the ship, I believe, that -— if we took a document representing the legality of the ship or who owned it.

This type of information was not given out mainly because it showed that Mr. Hubbard had control.

Q Now, Mr. Armstrong, you saw some share certificates in the name of Mr. Hubbard; did you?

A I --

Q Yes or no.

A I can't tell you that for sure.

Q I'm going to show you some original documents -- Your Honor, may they be marked exhibit 45?

THE COURT: All right. 45.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: I am actually marking a certified copy, but I want to show you, Mr. Armstrong, the certified copy, but I want to show you, Mr. Armstrong, the originals.

Did you see the OTC stock book and stock register in the port captain's office?

A I don't know if I saw these. It may have been the OTS ones; it could have been if it was there.

Q In other words, you don't know if you saw it or

2532

not?

If I could substitute the originals for a copy, Your Honor, this has been collectively marked exhibit 45 and contains the stock register and it contains the whole book of stock certificates.

2533

THE COURT: As long as Mr. Flynn will have an opportunity to review it.

MR. HARRIS: Sure. He has a whole copy and he is welcome to look at the original if he chooses.

Q Mr. Armstrong, were you involved in any of the accounting for Operation Transport Corporation?

A Not on the level like with the people involved in the tax case. As you can see, I did my individual accounting.

Q Right.

A For individual disbursements which I obtained or purchases which I made. I was not part of what was called the audit project, no.

Q were you part of the treasury at any time?

A No.

Q Did you see, Mr. Armstrong, any dividends going to the shareholders of RTC —- strike that -— OTC in your position?

A No.

MR. HARRIS: I have a document, Your Honor, entitled "Sea Organization Flag Administration Organization." May that be marked exhibit 46?

THE COURT: All right, so marked for identification.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: I ask you, Mr. Armstrong, if you recognize that item?

A Okay.

Q Does that mean yes?

A Yes.

Q And the last few pages contain your handwriting;

2534

do they?

A Yes.

Q Now, directing your attention to the second paragraph which says "Sea Org Success"; do you note that?

A Okay.

Q And down at the bottom --

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, it is my understanding that this comes from Mr. Armstrong's PC files.

MR. HARRIS: That is totally false, Mr. Flynn.

MR. FLYNN: Why don't you ask Mr. Armstrong, Mr. Harris? He was there at the time.

THE COURT: Well, we will go on and see what develops.

BY MR. HARRIS: Do you see the Sea Org success page, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

Q And down at the bottom you give your permission to publish this letter in any of the publications of the Church of Scientology of California or Operations and Transport Corporation?

A Yes.

Q And you have already indicated to us that aboard the ship you received HCOPL's, HCOB and other issues; is that correct?

A Yes.

MR. HARRIS: All right; I have a document, Your Honor with the title "Understanding Corporate Integrity"; may this be marked exhibit 47?

2535

THE COURT: Yes.

Q BY MR HARRIS: Is that one of the items that you received aboard the ship, Mr Armstrong?

A It very well may be.

Q At the time being somone who was fearful of not making it in the Sea Org, it was your habit to read all of the items that came into your in basket; right?

A I don't follow your equation.

Q You didn't understand my question, sir?

A The equation that you strung together, an equation there as someone fearful, I read everything. That didn't make sense to me.

Q You testified on direct examination, as I recall, that the dominant emotion that you had aboard the ship was fear, isn't that right?

A Yes.

Q And when Mr Litt asked you on cross-examination, you said you had a fear of failure; that is, not doing a good job as a Sea Org member; right?

A I had a fear of a lot of things.

Q Was one of you fears not doing well as a Sea Org member, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yeah; fear of being RPF'd, fear of being thrown off the ship, fear of doing something wrong, fear of incurring Mr. Hubbard's wroth, a lot of fears.

Q Wrath, you mean?

A Wrath.

Q Was one of your fears among all those fears,

2536

Mr. Armstrong, that you would not do well as a Sea Org member?

A Well, that wasn't quite the way it was articulated in my mind. It was more like I was going to be an SP and cause the destruction of the universe by not shouldering my load to help Mr. Hubbard save everyone.

Q So you shouldered your load to help Mr. Hubbard save everyone?

A I would have killed for the man.

Q Did you do that, Mr. Armstrong?

THE COURT: Which?

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Killed for the man.

A I never killed any individuals.

Q Is it your state of mind as now that you would have killed somebody while you were aboard the ship?

A Yes.

Q Is that what you meant in exhibit HH written to the CO of the CMO:

"It is an area which I keep scrupuloulsy legal." -- referring to the archives -- "This has been my modus operandi for all my Sea Org years and on many posts closely connected with legal situations. I have always resisted attempts to get me involved in shady actions for short-range products and opted for legality with long-range return."

Is that what you meant when you said, Mr. Armstrong?

A That is what I tried to do.

Q Yes. Did you do that, Mr. Armstrong?

2537

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, may I see exhibit 7-A under seal while this is going on?

MR. HARRIS: I have a document, Your Honor, entitled "Affidavit." May that be marked exhibit 48?

THE COURT: Yes 48 for identification.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Would you take a look at exhibit 48, Mr. Armstrong.

2538

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Do you recognize it, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

Q On the last page, is that your signature?

A Yes.

Q was it signed on the 12th of April, 1980?

A I don't know if it was or not.

Q Well, is that your writing that says "12 April, 1980"?

A Yes.

Q And, of course -- well, strike the "of course."

This was at a time when you were on the archives project; isn't that correct?

A That is correct.

Q And beginning the biography project?

A That's correct.

Q And you, having seen a newspaper article in the Clearwater Press, volunteered to do something in respect to what was being stated; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And you stated in the first paragraph that you were employed by the Church of Scientology of California; is that right?

A Yes: whoever -— I don't believe I typed this. A lot of it is not my words. So that would have been chosen for me, but, in any case, I signed this document.

Q And you initialed each page?

A Yes.

2539

Q Including the first page that contains that document?

A That is correct.

Q And you indicated that from July, 1976 to December, 1977 you were working in the RPF at the Church of Scientology of California in Clearwater; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q You were not under any duress at the time you executed this affidavit, were you?

A I think I was under a great deal of duress.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Flynn, the deposition of Mr. Armstrong of August l7, 1982, volume l, page ll3.

MR. FLYNN: In this case, Mr. Harris?

MR.HARRIS: Yes, it is.

Beginning on line 10:

(Reading:)

"Q were you under duress of any sort at the time you executed these affidavits?

"By 'duress' I mean were you without sleep? was food being withheld from you? Had you worked long hours? Were you under medication, mental or psychiatric care or were you under the influence of alcohol?

"A I don't believe so."

Q were you under any threats at the time you signed the affidavit, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

MR. HARRIS: Page 115, same deposition, Mr. Flynn;

2540

line 18:

(Reading:)

"Q were you under any threats at the time you executed this affidavit, Mr. Armstrong?

"A There were no verbal threats directly on this that I recall."

Do you recall that?

A Yes.

Q In fact, you had an interview with someone prior to this affidavit being prepared; correct?

A Yes.

Q And you looked at it and were told that you could make changes if you wished; isn't that correct?

A I may have.

Q Yes or no.

A Possibly was.

Q But you don't recall?

A I don't recall that specific thing, no.

MR. HARRIS: The same deposition, Mr. Flynn, at page 116, starting at line 12:

(Reading):

"Q Did they come with a typed affidavit prior to the interview and tell you to sign it, or was the affidavit prepared after the interview?

"A It was prepared after the interview.

2541

"Q Did that person tell you that you could make corrections if you found errors in the typed copy?

"A Yes, certainly."

Did you find any errors in it at the time that you looked it over and signed it, Mr. Armstrong?

2542

MR. FLYNN: You are asking for his state of mind at the time?

MR. HARRIS: I asked a simple question. Is that an objection?

MR. FLYNN: It is an objection.

I am not sure what the question means, Your Honor. If he asking for the witness' state of mind at the time the document was signed?

THE COURT: Well I assume that is what you are referring to: is that right, Mr. Harris?

MR. HARRIS: I suppose so.

Q Answer?

A I knew that it had errors in it. I was going to sign whatever they had put in front of me. As I say, there was a lot of duress.

Q I see. Page ll6, same deposition, Mr. Flynn, line 19:

"Q Did you find any errors?

"A I didn't think so at the time.

"Q So, in other words, your signature was freely given without threat or coercion at that point and after you had some time to review the contents of this affidavit?

"A Yes.”

Mr. Armstrong, on page 2, paragraphs 10 and ll you make reference to what Miss Burden claimed in her affidavit and what the truth was about the E meter; is that correct?

2543

A This was —— this is not my statement. I didn't make it.

Q You did initial it at the bottom; didn'tyou?

A Well, as I say, I was willing to sign anything.

Q Did you initial it at the bottom, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

Q Miss Burden, according to what is here which you signed, swore that the E-meter "is a lie detector used during auditing."

And you swore that you personally knew that the E meter was not a lie detector but a religious artifact; isn't that correct?

A What is stated here is what was prepared in the document.

Q Is that what you signed under oath, Mr. Armstrong?

A I believe so.

Q By the way, Miss Burden is represented by Mr. Flynn; is that right?

MR. FLYNN: I will stipulate to that, Your Honor.

MR. HARRIS: I will accept the stipulation.

Q And you testified on direct examination about taking Miss Burden back to the church in Los Angeles from Las Vegas; did you not?

A I took her to the Cedars Complex and turned her over to the RPF.

Q And she agreed to return to Los Angeles

2544

and route out of the church honestly; right?

A She agreed to come back.

Q Well you signed under oath, "Tanya then agreed with this and agreed to return to Los Angeles and route out of the church honestly"; isn't that correct?

Paragraph 4 about 6 lines up from the bottom, 5 actually; do you see that?

A Yes.

Q And in paragraph 15 of the affidavit you are again making reference to Tanya Burden's affidavit and you swore that she swore that "In Los Angeles I was locked in a room and forced to undergo a security check on the E Meter."

And you under oath said, "I personally know that while in Los Angeles, Tanya Burden was never locked in any room or otherwise confined in any manner."

That is what you swore to; isn't it?

Yes, that is what I said there.

Q (Reading):

"I also know that Tanya was never forced to undergo a security check on the E meter."

You swore to that, too; didn't you?

A Yes.

Q Directing your attention, Mr. Armstrong, to what has been previously marked exhibit X, when did you first see all of the contents of exhibit X as they are now put together?

A Do you mean in this order?

2545

Q Yes.

A I believe here in this trial.

Q You mean you didn't see that put together like that in Mr. Flynn's office?

A I have never been to Mr. Flynn's office.

Q Ms. Dragojevic's office, did you see it there?

A I don't recall it.

Q Did you put it together, Mr. Armstrong?

A No.

Q Somebody else did?

A Well, must have because I didn't.

Q And do you know who?

A No.

Q Now the first page which is the HCO Bulletin of 3 February, 1960, did you study that when you took the course on sec checking, Mr. Armstrong? Just the first page, we will get to the rest later.

A I probably saw it back much earlier on the ship.

Q So the answer is no, you didn't study that when you took the sec checking course?

A No. I believe it was included in the —- one of the courses in the RPF.

Q Which one, Mr. Armstrong?

A Well, I did a couple on sec checking, one right at the outset, one much later on when it got kind of changed over to become -- what was called --integrity

2546

processing.

Q And what was the name of the course that is the first one that you took, Mr. Armstrong, which allegedly contained the first page of exhibit X?

A I don't know if we actually had a check sheet at that time because this was at the beginning of the RPF when all we were to do at that point was sec checking.

2547

So there was a great number of packs put together. And I don't know if we got a check sheet either approved or in use.

Q Now, you are telling us that when you first went on the RPF you did a course without a check sheet; is that correct? Yes or no.

A Yes. We never had any check sheets.

Q Now, looking at page 2 of the exhibit X, was that page 2 with page 1 of exhibit X when you saw it in this no check sheet course?

A I don't recall this picture.

Q Well, did you try when you were identifying exhibit X to give the court the impression that exhibit X was all one package, Mr. Armstrong?

A I don't know if I tried to give the court that impression at all.

Q Well, in fact, it isn't any such package; isn't that correct?"

A Well, they are not one consecutive -- they are not, apparently, from the same document or anything.

Q Right.

A Some of them are really well known.

This one, at least, is in the green volume which I have read.

Q Is page 2, Mr. Armstrong, a part of page 1?

A I really don't Know. It may be. What it says, "Page 23" And the other one says "Page 33."

Q And also, it says ——

2548

A I frankly don't know.

Q -- it says on it "For use with HCO bulletin of February 10, 1960”; is that right?

A Okay. So --

Q "0kay" means "yes"?

A Yes; I read that. So I don't get the significance yet.

Q It is your exhibit, Mr. Armstrong; does it say that, or doesn't it?

A It says what it says.

Q It says, "For use with HCO bulletin of February 10, 1960"; that is what it says; right?

A Yes.

Q And the first bulletin is a bulletin of 3 February, 1960; right?

A Okay.

Q Now, where does page 2 of exhibit X come from, Mr. Armstrong?

A I really don't know. It is a picture of an E meter. Maybe it is from the same volume. I really don't know.

MR. HARRIS: I have a HCO bulletin of 10 February, 1960, Your Honor; may that be marked plaintiff's exhibit 49?

THE COURT: So marked.

MR. FLYNN: What have you got there, Mr. Harris?

MR. HARRIS: HCO bulletin of 10 February.

Q Now, Mr. Armstrong, looking at exhibit 49,

2549

was this document in the course where you didn't have a check sheet?

MR. FLYNN: What are you talking about, just the diagram, Mr. Harris?

MR. HARRIS: Is that an objection, Mr. Flynn?

MR. FLYNN: I am trying to identify what you are talking about with the witness. I am wondering if you are talking about just the diagram now.

Is that what you are referring to?

MR. HARRIS: Is that an objection?

THE COURT: Let's avoid this. Let's have the question read back.

(The question was read:)

THE COURT: If he knows.

If you don't know --

MR. FLYNN: I am just wondering which document --

THE COURT: He has two pages: I assume he means both are within one document.

MR. HARRIS: That is correct, Your Honor. That appears to be by the reference on page 2.

THE WITNESS: It may have been.

I have read this document before. I cannot tell you right now where exactly I have read it, but I have read it.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Up on the left-hand side, Mr. Armstrong, there appears to be something called "CENOCON; Place one in each; British E meter;" what is that?

A This would be designations as to who in

2550

the original mimeographed edition would get it. And the last one meant place one in each British E meter. So when the British E meters were being sold, each one of these went in the package.

Q Directing your attention back to exhibit 47, up at the top it says, "Remimeo all staff hats basic SO member hat"; again, is this the routing that this would have gone?

A Well, in a sense, it is routing because each person would have received that particular thing.

"Re—mimeo" meant that other organizations would have picked up the same document and re—mimeoed it themselves. And the hats refer to packs of material which people kept.

Q What does on exhibit X, page l, ”STHIL" mean?

A St. Hill.

Q That was the distribution of that so far as you could tell from the routing? Yes or no?

A At the time.

Q Yes.

A Not subsequently.

Q Do you mean subsequently somebody reissued it and put different routing on it? Yes or no.

A Yes. Right. Hubbard had moved from St. Hill. The headquarters moved from St. Hill. So the documents would be remimeoed somewhere else, anywhere else.

Q By the way, "CENOCON," with your experience

2551

with Scientology history, perhaps you can tell us what that was.

A No. I am not sure right now.

Q And looking at page 3 of exhibit X did you mean, when you presented this document to the court, to --

THE COURT: He didn't present it, Counsel; his lawyer presented it. He identified it. There was testimony about it. Let's move on.

Q By Mr. Harris: Did you see in this checksheet -- strike that -- this course that had no checksheet the item called "Interrogation" which is page 3, Mr. Armstrong?

A Very likely.

2552

Q You feel as you sit there now that you saw this?

A Yes, earlier and then -- we collected up everything we could find on the subject of sec checking.

Q What is the routing on the top of the page 3 of exhibit X?

A (Reading):

"All auditors in South Africa and Cen OCon."

Q Which you don't know what it was?

A No. We could figure it out, but we don't know right now.

Q And Johannesburg security check which appears on page 4 of this, did you see that in your course with no checksheet?

A I don't know. I definitely saw it later during the sec check course which did have a sec check or did have a checksheet, so I saw it then definitely.

Q Now, again, exhibit --

A I saw it 30 times in Scientology.

Q Thirty times?

A Yes.

Q And as you sit there now, Mr. Armstrong, do you know if any of the items in the package exhibit X have been cancelled?

A I don't know.

MR. HARRIS: Does Your Honor have 49 which I think was the last one that was marked?

THE COURT: Yes.

2553

MR. HARRIS: I have a document, Your Honor, entitled "Sea Organization RPF OW and sec checking course." May that be marked exhibit 50?

THE COURT: Very well.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Do you recognize exhibit 50, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

Q And do those appear to be your initials on the right-hand side in part?

A Yes, in part.

Q And on page 2 appear to be your initials as well down the right~hand side?

A Yes.

Q Was a little date next to the initials?

A Yes.

Q And on the third page there is somebody else's initials; do you recognize those?

A No.

Q You don't recognize those as your twin's at the time?

A No.

Q All right, and on the last page is it signed by you as the student?

A Yes.

Q Now, looking through that checksheet, Mr. Armstrong, do you see any of the items that are in the package which is exhibit X?

A No.

2554

Q Are you telling us, Mr. Armstrong, that you took two sec checking courses while you were in the RPF?

A There may be a third group. I recall that all the sec checking I did was probably in 19- -- late in '77, some time in '77.

Q At a time when you were on the RPF?

A Yes, but there is another pack of materials which predated this, and there is another, I believe, another pack later on.

Q So now you are saying you took three sec checks courses while you were in the RPF, Mr. Armstrong?

A I think you are misinterpreting the first one and I am not sure about the last one except that I did when I was auditing my twin or sec checking my twin, it was a great deal of time after this, at least when the bulk of the sec checking was done, I believe that there was a change and a bunch of other materials was added which I don't recall here.

Q And did you do a sec sheet on that little pack, Mr. Armstrong?

A I probably did.

Q And you believe that the third course that you did on sec checking -— I take it that is what we are talking about, a third one right after this one?

A It would have been this one revised, and there was a shift around 1977 when we started to get into evil purposes and evil intentions and would have postdated this.

2555

Q So is this the third one is my question, the third sec checking course that you took?

A Let me explain the first one. You are not understanding what I have said.

Q The first one, you have already told me there was no checksheet; the second one --

A The past --

Q Excuse me.

The second one is the one that you have in your hand which has been marked exhibit 50; is that correct?

A Right. My recollection --

Q And then there was the third one; right?

That is a revision of the one that you have in your hand?

A That is correct. At least there was a great deal of sec checking information which came out in that period and was added in at some point.

Q And that is the course that you did with a checksheet; is that correct?

A I assume there would have been a checksheet. I don't r[e]call, but it would have been standard.

Q And, indeed, it have been non—standard in respect to your first course not to have a checksheet; is that right?

A Right. We didn't have anything at the beginning. We put it all together.

Q Including HCOB's and that sort of stuff; you didn't have any of that; you put it all together yourself?

2556

A We went to mimeo and pulled everything having to do with sec checking.

MR. HARRIS: I have a document --

THE COURT: We'll take a 10-minute recess at this time.

(Recess.)

2557

THE COURT: All right, we are back in session.

Just state your name again for the record, Mr. Armstrong. You are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: Gerald Armstrong.

THE COURT: You may continue, Counsel.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Your Honor.

I have a document "Success", Your Honor. May this be marked exhibit 52?

THE COURT: Very well, 51.

MR. HARRIS: I am sorry, my apologies. Let me go back and change that and I have something else which I want to mark exhibit 51.

THE COURT: All right. 51, whatever it is.

MR. HARRIS: It is the Auditor's Code, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right, Auditor's Code exhibit 51.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Now, Mr. Armstrong, on exhibit 50, first page, item 5, you initialed the Auditor's Code AD 18.

A Okay.

Q Okay means yes?

A Yes.

Q And I'm going to show you now exhibit 51 and ask you if that is the Auditor's Code AD 18 that you read and initialed at the time?

A It may have been, but I doubt it.

Q Well, let's see. It says, "HCOPL 14 October, 68R."

A R.

2558

Q That is something different than the one you have before you; is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q well, what were the revisions? That R means revision; right?

A Yes.

Q What were the revisions that you now recall, if any?

A I don't recall specifically what they were.

MR. HARRIS: Now, I have a document "Success", Your Honor. May that be marked exhbit 52?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Showing you exhibit 52, Mr. Armstrong, I ask you if that is in your handwriting?

A Yes.

Q And that was the success story you wrote after having completed the RPF OW and sec check course; is that correct?

A It may be. I can't read the date on the copy I have here.

THE COURT: Well this appears to be the original, sir.

THE WITNESS: Probably is the one, yes.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Directing your attention to exhibit 50, the date when you completed the course appears to be 9 November, '76; is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q And did you make out the date on the Success

2559

story, exhibit 52?

A Yes, same date.

MR. FLYNN: Let me make an objection to that for the record. That is from the PC file.

MR. HARRIS: That is false, too.

THE COURT: Well, not knowing one way or another, I will just pass.

I don't know that that would be a legal objection anyway. It may be something that goes to the merits of this lawsuit.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Mr. Armstrong, after all those months in RPF at Flag -- is that where it was that you were in RPF when you tok this course?

A Which course?

Q The OW and sec checking course.

A Yes.

2560

Q Flag was in Clearwater?

THE COURT: Flag in Navy parlance is wherever the commodore is.

THE WITNESS: That's right. At that point we -- they were pretending that international management was occurring from Flag land base. But in fact, it wasn't.

But as far as a cover was concerned, that was called the Flag Land Base.

Q That is, that became a referent to Clearwater?

A That is correct.

Q And by "they were pretending," do you mean all of the Scientologists that were in Clearwater?

A I don't think that --

Q Yes or no.

A I don't think I can answer it with a yes or no as you worded it.

Q Very well.

At the conclusion of your RPF did you write a success story?

A Undoubtedly.

MR. HARRIS: I have something called "Success Story RPF Completion", Your Honor. May that be marked exhibit 53?

THE COURT: Yes, so marked.

MR. FLYNN: I would agree that that can go into evidence at this time, Your Honor.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Does that appear to be your signature at the bottom, Mr. Armstrong?

2561

A It appears to be.

Q And in the first --

By the way, you wrote this yourself; right?

A Yes.

Q Nobody typed it up for your signature; right?

A I don't believe so.

Q And you stated that you were -— in the first sentence -— fortunate to have been given this opportunity by LRH to become redeemed; your words, right?

A Really degraded; isn't it?

Q Pardon me?

A I am acknowledging that it is really degraded, isn't it?

Q No. It is really redeemed, r—e-d-e-e-m-e-d; isn't that what it says, "redeemed”?

A I know. That is degrading.

Q And " ... to have been given my sanity"; your words, right?

A Sanity?

Q "Sanity"; that is what it says, "and to have been given my sanity," Mr. Armstrong?

A That is what it says, yes.

Q "And I was always, because of the nature of the RPF, progressing toward the goal of full honesty and redemption"; your words, Mr. Armstrong?

THE COURT: Where are you going, Counsel?

MR. HARRIS: The second paragraph, Your Honor:

"It was a long haul, 17 months to the day.

2562

But it is not one minute of that time regretted because I was always, because of the nature of the RPF, progressing toward the goal of full honesty and redemption."

Your words, right, Mr. Armstrong?

A I probably borrowed some of them from Mr. Hubbard, but they are my words here.

Q And the sixth paragraph down, you noted " ... I became an auditor, a goal every Scientologist has had."

These are your words, right?

A Sure.

Q " ... I audited almost 1,000 hours of my twin in the RPF."

That was true, wasn't it?

A What was true?

Q That you audited almost 1,000 hours on your twin in the RPF?

A Yes.

Q And your twin was Andre Clavel; right?

A That is correct.

Q "The education was priceless;" your words, right, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

Q Then you said, " ... I became a Scientologist, for I wasn't one before"; your words, right, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

Q And continuing down about five paragraphs,

2563

you say, " ... I am ready to again become a Flag staff member and share the burden of clearing this planet with other staff”; your words, right, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

Q And then the last paragraph, Mr. Armstrong, " ... and to LRH, who has given me my sanity and given me the tech with which to help him in his goals for man, sir, I am a good investment. And I will be able some time to repay you."

Q Your words, right, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

Q By the way, Mr. Amrstrong, in 1977 you testified that —-

THE COURT: Do you mean he testified in 1977, or testified now?

MR. HARRIS: My error, Your Honor.

Q You testified in this case that in 1977 while you were on the RPF that there were no wage vouchers that said "The Church of Scientology of California" on them; right?

A I don't know whether I testified to that or not.

2564

Q 10 May, 1984, page 1467, Mr. Flynn, line 17:

"Q And do you recall receiving any amounts of cash in 1977?

A Everything was cash.

Q Were there any wage vouchers that said the Church of Scientology of California on them?

"A No.

I have a package, Your Honor, of vouchers which say "Church of Scientology of California" on them. May that be marked collectively exhibit 54?

THE COURT: Very well.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: I show you the originals, Mr. Armstrong, so you can take a look at them.

MR. FLYNN: These cover the disbursement vouchers for all the years that you have that bear at the top "Church of Scientology of California," Mr. Harris, just for this period in 1977?

MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, maybe Mr. Flynn could direct his questions to Your Honor.

I have been going all weekend gathering up little items. This is one such, and it has been given to Mr. Flynn.

Q Do you recognize the vouchers in exhibit 54, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

Q Do you recognize your then-wife's signature, Terry Armstrong?

A On some of them, yes.

2565

Q And it was not unusual for you in 1977 to authorize someone else to pick up your pay?

A I guess not. She has signed for a couple of them.

Q in any event, those with your signature are your signature; is that correct?

A Yes.

MR. HARRIS: I'm going to be referring to exhibit RR, Your Honor, previously marked.

Q Directing your attention to the document marked exhibit RR, Mr. Armstrong, the last paragraph of which talks about SP order and Fair Game; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And as I understand your testimony over about four and a half days, it was your opinion that Fair Game was as set forth in that paragraph; is that correct?

A This is a pretty good description of it.

Q And your claim, I take it, is that you, fearing that you would be subjected to what that paragraph says, took the documents and gave them to your attorney?

A I was already the subject of it.

Q Now, before you took the documents and sent them to Mr. Flynn, you hadn't been sued; right?

A That is correct.

Q Harking back to the Flag orders of the day where I pointed out to you in exhibit 42 under ethics someone being upgraded from treason to enemy; do you recall that?

A Yes.

2566

Q On the left side of exhibit RR, Mr. Armstrong, appears to be the conditions within the ethics system of Scientology, at least some of them; is that correct?

A This is one part of them, yes.

Q And a condition is something that one is in; is that correct?

A Okay. Yes.

Q "Okay" means yes; right?

And there are higher conditions than liabilities; is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q There is power; correct?

A Yes.

Q Affluence; correct?

A Yes.

Q Normal?

A Yes.

Q Nonexistent?

A Yes.

Q And the conditions in which one is in can apply to any dynamic in Scientology terms; is that correct?

A I imagine that it can be applied in that manner, yes.

Q Well, you imagine it; even before you got into Scientology, you read a book about the Scientology ethics system; did you not?

A Yes.

Q And the first dynamic is self; is that correct?

2567

A Yes.

Q So ethically, within Scientology one's self can be in a condition; is that correct?

A You an either be in a condition or be put in a condition or have that condition relative to the organization or perceived by the organization.

The perception of the organization has little bearing on the actual condition that the person is in.

But go ahead.

Q Well, you yourself, Mr. Armstrong, had during the course of your stay in Scientology assigned yourself a condition; isn't that correct?

A One always did that, yes.

Q And on other occasions you would be assigned a condition by a senior; correct?

A One was always instructed to assign oneself a condition or one was assigned.

Q Or one was assigned.

And the second dynamic, family, sex; you could assign yourself a condition on that dynamic too; right?

A Yes.

Q Or have it assigned; right?

A Yes.

Q And the third dynamic, the group, the people you were among, the Scientologists you were among, you could put yourself in a condition in respect to that group; is that correct?

A It is possible.

2568

Q Or you could have a condition assigned?

A Yes.

Q Now, were you ever, while in Scientology, put in the condition of enemy?

A Which condition of enemy are you referring to?

Q Were you assigned by someone the condition of enemy? Yes or no.

A There are two conditions of enemy.

Q Were you assigned either of them while you were in Scientology?

A Yes; both.

Q All right. By the way, the second condition that you are talking about on enemy, is that written someplace?

A Yes.

Q Where?

A That is contained in all the Guardian's office information on enemies.

Q And the Guardian's office information on enemies, do you have some writing from that with you?

MR. FLYNN: Does his lawyer, or does he?

Q BY MR. HARRIS: You.

THE COURT: Do either you or your lawyer, to your knowledge, have any such writing?

THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. My lawyer has a wealth of such information.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: And this wealth of such information, did you see it in your lawyer's office, Mr. Armstrong?

2569

A I have never been to my lawyer's office.

Q You haven't been to --

I have a hard time with her name. I'm not going to do it.

How about the offices of Contos and Bunch; did you see such items there?

A I have seen some such items there, yes.

Q Now, Mr. Armstrong, the —- when you are in a condition, you do something in the Scientology ethic system called "a formula"; is that right?

A It depends which condition you are in.

Q In the condition of enemy, it is the formula, find out who you are; is that right?

A You are thinking of the internal condition of enemy; correct, or whatever.

Q Did you do the enemy formula when you were assigned the condition of enemy while you were in the group?

A Yes.

Q And did you write down "find out who you are"?

A Yes.

Q And then you were elevated to the next higher condition; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q Treason is below enemy, is it not, Mr. Armstrong?

A In certain Scientology doctrines, yes.

Q And, again, referring you to 42-ll, Morton Smithburg, having applied the treason formula, is upgraded to enemy; that is the way it worked internally in Scientology;

2570

is that correct, Mr. Armstrong?

A To some degree, yes.

Q And the formula for treason was to find out that you are; isn't that correct?

A Yes.

Q Moving from treason to enemy, one moves up into doubt; is that correct?

A Again, you're talking about only the internal policies, not referring to the Guardian's office conditions of enemy and traitor and doubt.

Q Let me ask you this, Mr. Armstrong: during the time before you got into Scientology when you read this introduction to Scientology ethics did you understand what you were reading at the time?

A I believed that I understood it, yes.

Q And when you were at this alleged franchise in Canada did you have the ethics conditions in the franchise?

A No.

2571

Q Was not ethics in that franchise; is that correct?

A No, I think that the level of ethics there was extremely high and it degenerated the closer you got to the man. So I think ethics did exist there. Ethics did not exist later on, at least with Hubbard.

Q When you joined the Sea Organization, Mr. Armstrong, did you take any kind of course in Scientology ethics?

A When you say when I joined, what time period are you talking about?

Q Well, let's put it this way: Within the first three years of joining the Sea Org, did you take any kind of a course on Scientology ethics?

A There was probably something included in the Volume 0 checksheet. I don't know if I took a specific course in ethics at that time separate from that.

Q Just so I understand it. All the time that you were in the group; that is, in the group of Scientologists who were staff members, who were Sea Org members, the condition of enemy you are talking about is the internal condition of enemy; right?

A During all the time?

Q Yes.

A Well, I knew of the existence of the other one.

Q You knew of the existence of it at the time you were on the ship; is that correct?

A Well --

2572

Q Yes or no.

A When you say the time that I was on the ship, do you mean the whole time?

Q The whole time that you were on the ship, Mr. Armstrong.

A I did not know it the whole time I was on the ship. By "whole time" you mean the 4 1/2, 4.6 years?

I learned of it on the ship.

Q That is when you first heard of Fair Game; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And you saw something in a PR briefing pack about Fair Game; right?

A Yes.

Q And the question never came up to you in port; did it?

A No.

Q And at the time that you were on the ship you had in your PR pack that Fair Game was cancelled; is that correct?

A That was the answer we were to use when asked about Fair Game.

MR. HARRIS: I have a document, Your Honor, entitled "The Conditions, Awards and Penances." May that be marked exhibit 55?

THE COURT: Yes, so marked for identification 55.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: I ask you, Mr. Armstrong, if you have ever seen exhibit 55?

2573

A I don't believe I ever saw this.

Q While on staff in January, 1981 you did receive HCOPL's; right, policy letters?

A No. I didn't have a communications basket in the organization during that period that received any of the standard issues. Sometimes I came across them, but I did not get issues as a rule throughout that period.

Q In fact, Mr. Armstrong, in the archives area, you had a package which contained issues that you received; did you not?

A There may have been some in there, but it was not of my recollection.

Do you have the package?

Q Yes.

A Great.

Q But you don't recall this being in the pack Mr. Armstrong?

A No. If it was I am sure I didn't read it at the time.

Q And you haven't seen it since; is that correct?

A No.

Q If I understand you correctly then, there were internal among the group, there was an ethic system that did not involve suing, lying, tricking, destroying, anything like that; is that correct?

A Well there was an ethic system on board in the organization which involved trickery and deception and cheating, but the people being tricked and cheated

2574

didn't know about it.

But outside the organization, especially with the Guardian's office and the other enforcement arms of Scientology and Mr. Hubbard's groups, there was a whole different level. These things didn't apply, and an enemy on the outside was someone who could literally be destroyed.

Q So if I am to understand you correctly, internally as a staff member there is one definition of enemy and then there is some other one, some Guardian office condition within which one is put if one is an outside enemy, is that the substance of your testimony?

A If one is perceived as an enemy of the organization, then the organization brings its might to bear against that person so condidered an enemy.

2575

Q And that was your state of mind at the time that you left the organization?

A Well, I recognized the possibility that that was going to happen. I requested that it not happen. It did happen.

My state of mind when I left the organization was one of very intense fear. But I hoped that some sanity would reign in the organization and I would not be attacked. That didn't work out.

Q And at the time that you left the organization, Mr. Armstrong, your state of mind is that there were people who could leave the organization, but not be tricked, sued, lied to, destroyed, et cetera; is that right?

MR. FLYNN: Which time period, what date? which year?

MR. HARRIS: When he left the organization, December 12, 1981.

THE WITNESS: I knew that when the Douglases had left the organization that L. Ron Hubbard had issued an order specifically regarding the Douglases; that they were not to be harassed.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: This was one you saw; right?

A This is one that I was informed of.

Q By whom, Mr. Armstrong?

A By messengers, by Laurel Sullivan, by --

Q Which messenger?

THE COURT: You are interrupting the witness, counsel.

THE WITNESS; BY Betty Diesdorf[Dede Reisdorf]; Laurel Sullivan; Leo Johnson. It was common knowledge on the property at Gilman

2576

Hot Springs.

So I hoped that the same kind of order would be issued regarding me because I had similar kinds of knowledge to what the Douglases had.

I did not wish to be made an enemy.

I knew that Mr. Hubbard said specifically don't harass the Douglases. And as a result, they were not.

I understood that no declare was issued on them and they were allowed to proceed with their lives.

I hoped that that would happen; I recognized the possibility that it would not and I had a lot of concern about that. But I had hoped that it wouldn't be.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Mr. Armstrong, when you left the organization you knew of many people who had been declared over the years; did you not?

A No.

Q You knew some had been declared; correct?

A I had heard of some, yes.

Q Was it your state of mind when you left the organization, Mr. Armstrong, that when someone was declared, this secret definition of enemy would be employed, this one that is not written?

A It could.

Q And when you say, "it could," do you mean it is possible? Is that right?

A Mr. Harris, you don't understand the way the organization worked.

Q Let me just ask you this: when you say "could,"

2577

do you mean it is possible? Is that right, Mr. Armstrong?

Yes?

A Let me explain that --

Q Can you answer it yes or no?

A No. I mean I cannot answer it yes or no. That is not my no answer.

Q Mr. Armstrong, at the time that you left the organization did you have in mind that you were not going to be declared a suppressive person? Yes or no.

A Did I have in mind that I was not going to be?

Q That is correct.

A I think I have explained that I --

Q Yes or no, Mr. Armstrong?

A I hoped that I would not be.

Q You hoped that you would not be, but you didn't know?

A I still don't know what the organization will do.

Q And your photo incident is what convinced you that this secret definition of enemy was being applied to you; is that correct?

A That was a big piece of it.

Q It wasn't the declare alone that caused you to believe this; correct?

A I knew that I was under investigation by a B-1 operative by the name of Brad Ballentine [Balentine].

I knew that the organization had, first of all, declared me; that the declare itself was Black Propaganda.

2578

Once the photos were taken, I made a demand for their return. They refused.

At that point I felt indebted to the people whose photos had been stolen.

I was scared for my life. I was scared for my wife's life. I knew what the organization was capable of.

I saw that they viewed me as an enemy and that the weight of the intelligence machinery of the organization would be brought against my wife and myself.

Q That was your state of mind after this photo incident; correct?

A That is correct. I was scared.

Q All right. When you took over the archivist post, Mr. Armstrong, your first duties were to gather the materials together in one place; is that correct?

A well, that is something that I did following right away.

Q Had you had any sort of formal education on preserving documents?

A No.

Q You learned this on your own?

A Yes.

Q And you tried as best you could to preserve the documents?

A Well, within the time I had, yes.

Q And insofar as biographical research, you hadn't had any formal training in that; is that correct?

A Well, I had worked for some time in the

2579

intelligence bureau on board the ship and in the Guardian's office. So I knew about collecting data on people and data analysis and I could time track things. So I suppose within the Scientology framework, I had learned about biographical data collection to some extent.

2580

Q Did you while you were in the archivist and researcher position attempt to read how one goes about researching a biography?

A I don't think I read anything specifically on that point. I read material on biography files, but I don't recall anything specifically on that.

Q In terms of getting the materials together into one space and then attempting to sort them out, did you have some sort of a system which fit in with the biography research?

A I don't understand. You mean a system outside my own -- whatever I developed along the way?

Q Yes, something that was published or that one would learn about how you gather things together for a biography.

A No.

Q You developed your own system as to how to store the materials in order to retrieve them for purposes of the biography; is that correct?

A Yes. I

Q And up until the time that you got the Controller archives materials given to you by Mr. Vorm, you had been essentially just doing something with the materials to make them accessible to you so that you could take them to Mr. Garrison; is that correct?

A I don't understand your statement.

Q Well, what was your system of storage of documents for retrieval for the purpose of the biography

2581

project, if there was one?

A As I obtained materials which were used in the biography, I assembled them into either a chronology, if there was a great number of documents, for example, the letters between Mr. Hubbard and his wife and girl friends, and I copied them. I made two copies as a rule and put the copies into a binder, the two sets. One copy I provided to Mr. Garrison. One I put in a separate space for reference purposes.

Q And were those binders made in such a way as to go chronlogically?

A Well, within a particular binder I would try to assemble material chronologically. The binders themselves usually jumped around in that I might one day be working on material in 1940 and another day working on material from the '60's.

So, the order in which I did binders was not chronologically, but the sum of them could have been added up and a chronology could have been formed from that.

Q Now, when you would proceed chronologically with these items, putting them in binders, it was in the biography matters; is that correct?

A No, what I am telling you it was by subject matter.

Q It was. So you developed a subject matter indexing system within which the binders would go chronologically; is that correct?

2582

A The contents of the binders would as much as possible be chronological.

Q And with the exception of some interviews of people, your state of mind respecting Mr. Hubbard came from the items within the archives; is that correct?

A Well, what period are you talking about?

2583

Q Well, up until the point where you received items from the Controller's Archives, when was that? Do you recall?

A The fall of 1981.

Q And you left in December of 1981?

A That is correct.

Q Now, I take it that from the materials other than the Controller Archives you had made some binders by subject matter, which binders internally were chronological; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And then when the archives material came, you would place the archives materials that pertained to the subject matter in that chronological binder; is that correct?

A I don't follow all of what you are saying there. But the way I described the way I did it, I tried to within an individual binder keep things chronological. I tried to. If the amount of material was greater than one binder, I would proceed chronologically into a second, third, or fourth binder within a particular subject.

Q When you would get new materials such as the Controller Archives material you would attempt to place it in binders that you had already made up from materials that you had gotten elsewhere?

A If it was on a particular subject and if, for example, the letters between Mr. Hubbard and his parents, the bulk of that material I obtained from Del sol. It went up to a particular time.

2584

I also obtained a lot of correspondence between Mr. Hubbard and his parents from the Pers Sec Archives, Pers Sec U.S., from Pers Sec WW. As I got these things, I fed them in chronologically; in other words, unless it was not possible to do that. If I got a big bunch more letters, then I would just copy those and form a chronology in separate binders. But if it was a few letters, then I would feed them into the existing binders. And I would do the same with Mr. Garrison.

I would note what binder it should go in and where and then clip it all together and hole punch it for him so he could stick it into his own binders.

Q Again, this is by subject matter chronologically, or would it be in some other form?

A As much as possible, as I say, I tried to keep it chronological and by subject matter.

Q Would you have a subject matter, for example, letters to LRH from his parents?

A Yes; well, back and forth. So I would try to have as much as possible him to them and them to him back and forth.

Q Now, this is a source subject matter; in other words, parent—child; child—parent; do you have other subject matter binders that were not by the nature of the correspondence?

A Sure.

Q All right. Now, amongst the items, as you would place them in a subject matter binder which itself ran

2585

chronologically, you made certain determinations about what -- where something fit; right?

A Okay.

Q "Okay" means yes?

A Well, I am —- I don't have the whole picture of where you are going, but I'll go along with your representation.

Q I am not representing anything. I am asking a question, Mr. Armstrong. I'm trying to figure out the system that you used.

You told us subject matter chronologically; some new piece of information would come in; you would file it and copy it and put it in a binder which was that subject matter and put it in chronological order?

A Yes.

Q Now, the subject matters that you used for your system, did it include something on Asia?

A Yes.

Q And something on the Navy?

A Yes.

Q How did you develop this subject matter system?

A Those were particular periods of Mr. Hubbard's life.

Q And particular -- well —- okay. Let me withdraw that.

For example, in the Asia subject matter, you would put everything in there that pertained to LRH in Asia; is that correct?

2586

A Yes.

Q Even though at the same time there may have been something within that period that wasn't Asia such as a letter to his mother from LRH from Washington; do you see what I mean, or are you confused by my question?

A No. I understand.

Q So what I'm trying to get at is you separated out Asia and didn't put anything in the Asia folder which was from the same time period that the Asia folder covered?

A Right. Unless it may have referred to Asia.

If I came across such a thing, then hypothetically I may have cross-referenced it into two binders.

2587

Q All right, now, in this system that you had developed, were you able to determine chronologically where Mr. Hubbard was at any time during his life?

A Principally with —- there are gaps, but principally, yes.

Q And when you say there are gaps, you mean there were no documents in your archives which reflected what Mr. Hubbard was doing at this particular time?

A That is correct.

Q And what was the longest gap of time from your documents where you couldn't figure out where LRH was and what he was doing?

A I really can't say. None of it is longer than a couple of years, possibly 1980 through '82 would be a period in which I didn't know where he was, had no way of knowing.

Q Any other periods prior to 1980, Mr. Armstrong?

A. I think I was able to put together a chronology from his birth through -— just about covering every year up to 1950, and then I had the interviews and Dianetics and Scientology time tracks which indicated where he was on a sometimes daily, sometimes weekly or monthly basis.

Q when you say a time track, you mean a date over on the left side and then what was happening on the right side?

A Well I didn't do that for much of the period, but when I am talking about a time track, I am talking about a chronology of where he was or what he was doing

2558

at a particular time. So the documents in the archives showed a chronology which I called a time track.

Q But you didn't write out such a time track from birth to 1980 to which you would refer in order to fill in chronological data; is that correct?

A No. There was some which was done. In fact, Barbara Decelle work on a time track through part of the period, but no overall time track was done while I was in the archives.

Q Now you have stated that you interviewed people. How many people did you interview in connection with this biography project, Mr. Armstrong; you, personally? Your best estimate?

A Probably 25.

Q Covering from the time of Mr. Hubbard's birth through 1980; that is, people that knew what had happened from birth say to 10, 10 to 20, et cetera?

2589

A Well, not all of them knew all of it; nor do I know if all of them knew or if together they knew the totality of it.

But, yes, the earliest -- the people I -- some people that I interviewed knew about his birth and knew his early life. So it went back that far and up to 1980. But there are gaps within the information or the knowledge of the people that I interviewed.

Q And you examined the documents that you had under -— in your area for the purpose of determining whom you would interview; is that correct?

A I obtained the names of possible people from various sources, not just from what was contained in the documents.

Q Well, within the documents you were able to tell certain people who definitely should be interviewed as having knowledge about that period of time; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And I take it that amongst all the documents that you had there, you interviewed everybody that you felt you should have interviewed who would know all about the period of time that was involved; is that correct?

A No. I didn't interview everyone.

Q You did interview the people that you felt were the most knowledgeable about this particular period of time that you were investigating; is that correct?

THE COURT: I assume other than Mr. Hubbard himself.

MR. HARRIS: Yes. Understood.

2590

THE WITNESS: Yes. There were other people who had knowledge who I either could not contact or could not locate or who were unwilling to be interviewed.

Q And insofar as other than interviews, documentary research, did you go outside of the archives in order to locate documents?

A Yes.

Q A Pertaining to particular periods?

A Yes.

Q And did you have some sort of a plan to do this, like consecutively or pick a decade or any sort of system?

A Well, a lot depended on where I was at the time, what period I would be researching. But if I was, for example in Iowa, then I was researching Mr. Hubbard's ancestors and not Mr. Hubbard.

So I knew that Iowa was not a gold mine for finding where Mr. Hubbard was during the Dianetics and Scientology period because he wasn't there.

But I knew that in Iowa was genealogical information which I used.

Q During the period of time from the mid-'50's to the mid-'60's there was one person who was with L. Ron Hubbard other than Mary Sue Hubbard the entire period; isn't that correct, Mr. Armstrong?

A Through the '50's and '60's?

Q Yes, mid-'50's through mid-'60's.

A You don't mean his Guardian Angel, do you?

Q What was your answer, Mr. Armstrong?

2591

A I am not sure who you are referring to.

Q Did you ever hear of somebody by the name of Routsong?

A Yes.

Q You know that she was in the -- did you know from the documents and other documents, data that you had, that she attended the first lecture that L. Ron Hubbard gave in 1950 in Los Angeles?

A I didn't know, but it is very likely. Her name came up very often.

Q Very often over all of the years from 1950 through the mid-'60's, right?

A Through -— from 1950.

Q To the mid-'60's, yes.

A Okay.

Q "Okay” means yes?

A Well, I really have no way of knowing that she was with him. I don't believe she was through all of that period.

THE COURT: We are going to take a recess at this time.

We'll reconvene at 1:30.

(At 12:00 noon, a recess was taken until l:30 p.m. of the same day.)

2592

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, MAY 21, 1984; 1:33 P.M.

-o0o-

THE COURT: All right. We are back in session.

Mr. Armstrong, would you retake the stand.

GERALD ARMSTRONG,

having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

THE COURT: Just state your name again for the record, sir. You are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: Gerald Armstrong.

THE COURT: You may continue, Counsel.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION (Resumed)

BY MR. HARRIS:

Q Mr. Armstrong, among the documents that you had in the archives were documents concerning the Hubbard Association of Scientologists; correct?

A Yes.

2593

Q And when was that organization formed?

A There may have been a number of them, but at least one was formed in the mid-'50's.

Q And where was that organization formed?

A I believe that at least one of the corporations or organizations was formed in Phoenix. There may be another one formed in the U.K.

Q And in your archives materials you had Marilyn Routsong serving as one of the executives in the Hubbard Association of Scientologists in Phoenix; is that correct?

A It could be.

Q And among your archives documents you had information respecting the founding Church of Scientology in Washington, D.C.; is that correct?

A Something about that, yes.

Q And you knew from your archives material that Marilyn Routsong was an executive of the founding church in the District of Columbia; is that correct?

A It may be amongst the materials. It doesn't stick out in my mind as something that I recognized at the time.

Q Do you know, Mr. Armstrong, as you sit there now from your memory of what was in the archives where L. Ron Hubbard was from 1950 to 1952?

A I can tell you roughly where he was.

Q Tell me roughly where he was, Mr. Armstrong.

A At the beginning of 1950 he was in Bayhead, New Jersey. For a period of time in 1950 he was in Elizabeth, New Jersey.

2594

Later in the year -— he traveled throughout 1950 a number of places. He spent a considerable amount of time in 1950 in the Los Angeles area.

2595

In the beginning of 1951 he was both in Los Angeles and then in Palm Springs, spent a few weeks in Palm Springs. Returned to Los Angeles. Went to Elizabeth, New Jersey and then to Cuba.

He was in Havana, Cuba for a few weeks or a month, but in any case that was in the spring or late winter, I guess, of 1951. Then he went to Wichita, Wichita, Kansas stayed in Wichita, Kansas for a great deal of 1951 through the beginning of 1952 at which point he went to Phoenix and he was in Phoenix throughout a lot of 1952 up to a point when he went to the U.K., and then in December he returned from the U.K. to Philadelphia.

Then, I believe, at the and of December or some time in late December 1952 he returned to the U.K.

Q Now, this time track —- is that the word that you used for these years? This would be what you'd that you'd call a time track?

A It is a chronology.

Q This was obtained from the documents that you had available in archives?

A Well it was obtained from various sources to be able to document it, but, yes.

Q And did you interview anyone from the period 1950 through '52 that was around LRH at the time?

A Yes.

Q who was that?

2596

A There was man by the name of Jack Spears. There was a man by the name of Perry Chapdelaine.

There was a man by the name of Lou Goldstone.

There was a woman by the name of Barbara Snader. There was a man by the name of Richard de Mille. Those are the ones that I recall right now.

Q And did you interview anyone who was in Phoenix with Mr. Hubbard?

A John Fudge was in Phoenix with Mr. Hubbard.

Q And you interviewed Mr. Fudge?

A Yes.

Q And in your interview with Mr. Fudge, did he discuss with you Marilyn Routsong?

A The name Marilyn Routsong has come up a number of times.

Q Did you make any attempt to locate Miss Routsong?

A I am pretty sure I had down her name and possibly addresses, an address for her, although it doesn't stick in my mind. She may have been interviewed regarding the biography project, but I did not do the interview.

Q Well do you have any information that anybody else interviewed her for the biography project?

A It is very possible because there was two other people who were doing interviews specifically of old—time Dianeticists and Scientologists and we had a long list of potential people to be interviewed.

2597

It is very possible; although, again, I don't recall all of that type of person who was interviewed. She may have been, but I didn't do it.

Q These two people, who were they?

A One of them was —— Tom Francis was his name. The other one, his name was Francis Scheuer, S-c-h-e-u-e-r, I believe.

Q And these were people who were working for either yourself or Mr. Garrison?

A Tom Francis was. He was in the -— LRH PR Bureau in Les Angeles. He was the LRH PR pac.

So he did a number of interviews at the request of Laurel Sullivan in conjunction with the biography project.

Francis Scheuer was a paying PC, a paying student. And he did it on a voluntary basis.

Q And these two gentlemen would deliver up their interview notes to you?

A well, they delivered to me generally the cassettes of the interviews which they did. Tom Francis, at least, typed up some of the interviews which he had done.

I don't know if Francis Scheuer typed them up or not. I don't recall seeing any transcripts from him. I did from Tom Francis.

Q Do you recall either a cassette or a transcript or a write-up on an interview of Marilyn Routsong?

A I don't recall, but it is possible that it was done by one of those people or someone else in conjunction

2598

with the project.

Q You also were aware that Marilyn Routsong was treasure Worldwide for a period of time in the late '50’s and early '60's; is that correct?

A I have seen correspondence to her in which she is noted as treasurer, I believe, at least they were regarding financial matters from Mr. Hubbard.

MR. HARRIS: I'm about to get to the sealed documents here, Your Honor.

Q Now, directing your attention to exhibit 500-5A, a big packet to Constantine Diamontides, right, Greece?

A Okay.

Q Is that your writing, by the way, on that?

A No.

Q Do you know whose it is?

A Which writing are you referring to?

Q "LRH Handwritten dispatches to Constantine Diamontides."

A No. My guess is that it is Pers Sec WW in that these all came from her files.

Q And you put those in some sort of chronological order pursuant to your system?

A No.

Q Did you simply -— strike 'simply’ -- what did you do with those when you first got them from Pers Sec WW?

A Well, they were -— until I gave them to Mr. Garrison, they were just like this.

Q Meaning in the same order that they appear in

2599

exhibit 500-5A?

A Basically. I may have rearranged them in chronological order to sort them out. But in that I didn't copy these, I can't really tell you if I did that or not.

They appear to be now in more or less chronological order with the latest date up front.

Q And did you interview anybody about the period of 1967 that that correspondence covers?

A I don't believe, not specifically relating to these materials, no.

Q Well, did you interview anybody at all who was with L. Ron Hubbard in 1967?

A I don't recall if I interviewed anyone on that period.

Mr. Garrison interviewed a number of people.

Q Well, did you get the benefit of his interviews?

A I heard at least some of them or pieces of them.

But I don't know the interviews in depth that he would --

Q And how about the period 1966? Did you interview anybody who was with L. Ron Hubbard in 1966?

A I don't recall. If I did, it doesn't come to mind right now.

Q When did you get the Pers Sec WW files, by the way?

A The ones which I obtained from there directly, I obtained in September, 1980.

The ones which came via the Controller's office, sometime later; so it would have been 1981.

2600

Q So at least as early as September 1980, you had the documents which are in 500 5A; is that correct?

A No, I probably got these from the Controller's archives late in the year 1981.

Q When you say "probably," do you have a recollection as you sit there now whether you got the items in 500 5A in September 1980 or from the Controller's archives?

A I could not say with absolute certainty, but my best recollection is that those materials came from the Controller's archives.

Q And in 1966 where was Mr. Hubbard?

A Well, he was during part of that year in Rhodesia. Part of it I believe he was in Morocco, and he also may have been in Las Palmas that year although perhaps not as extensively as in 1967.

Q And during the period that he was in those locations do you from the documents in your archives know what he was doing?

A I can tell you some of what he was doing.

Q Well what was he doing in Las Palmas if you know?

A Well he was supervising -- he had a villa in Las Palmas, but he was also supervising the refit of some vessels.

Q In which vessels were those?

A I believe they then called it the Avon River, definitely Avon River, but I am not sure, if the sailing vessel -- what did it later become -- Excalibur--

2601

the Diana.

Q And was there anything else in your archives that you discovered --

A Enchanter.

Q Sorry?

A The name of the sailing vessel was the Enchanter. Other than refitting a vessel which was the or became the Enchanter, do you know what else Mr. Hubbard was doing at Las Palmas in that period?

A Well he was creating some OT-3 processing. He was creating something called the Wall of Fire. He was operating Scientology.

Q From Las Palmas; is that correct?

A Yes. He operated it wherever he was.

Q Wherever he was, no matter where he was he operated Scientology?

A Uh-huh.

Q You sent exhibit 500 5D to Mr. Flynn because it showed, among other things, that there were some undated resignations and there was a master list on there; is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q Now do you know from what period of time those undated resignations were?

A Not all of them, no.

Q Do you recognize the names of the people who appear on the undated resignations as people who were involved in Scientology organizations after 1966?

2602

A Well, yeah, a lot of these people were involved after 1966.

Q Now do you know from what period these undated resignations are?

A They are not current. I can tell you that. How far back they go, I don't know.

Q And did you see the actual undated resignations?

A No, I didn't.

Q This appears to be an index of valuable documents; is that correct?

A Yes, from the Pers Sec archives.

Q Is there something you wanted to look at on that page?

A Yes, thank you.

Q Did you ask the Pers Sec for any of the actual documents that exhibit 500 5D is an index of?

A I'm not sure if I did or not. I will have to refresh myself here. I think I had -- I think I had all these. This was an index of the materials which I had in the Pers Sec archives.

Q You didn't have the undated resignations at the back?

A Well I never located them or looked at them, but a lot of these things are definitely materials which I had. This is an inventory to the Pers Sec archives.

Q Well, why is it labeled ”LRH Val Docs"?

By the way, is that your label?

A No.

2603

Q Was it on that package when you received it?

A Yes.

Q And this is an item that you gave in its present form to Mr. Garrison; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And your purpose of giving it to him was to show him an inventory of the items that you received from the Pers Sec office?

A Yes, in case there was anything in there which he wanted me to locate specifically.

Q And did he make any requests of you from --

A I don't recall if it came up or not. The Pers Sec archives, there was probably 20, 30 boxes of material, much of which I did not copy for him. But I took some of the material and copied it and I provided him this thing in case he wanted to go through it and pick out anything that was in here.

Q So you used this item which is 500 5D as an index of the Pers Sec WW files?

A No. This is Pers Sec US.

2604

Q Pers Sec U.S.?

A Right.

Q Containing correspondence relating to that Greek fellow; is that correct, the previous exhibit, Diamontides?

A I am not sure.

What was your question?

Q I just asked if in the Pers Sec U.S. files was the correspondence related to Mr. Diamontides?

A Well, what I said earlier was -— and my recollection of it is -- that that particular file came from Controller archives.

Now, there are references. There is HEC and there are things which would tie into it which are contained --

Here is "HEC, Greek companies; correspondence and agreements with Diamontides made by LRH."

That is something different. But it is all tied to -- here is HEC again.

Q You just pointed to, " ... correspondence and agreement with Diamontides of HCO Athens, two notebooks."

You are quite certain that this doesn't refer to the last exhibit that you saw; is that correct?

A I don't believe so. I'm sure that would have been called a file.

Q All right. Did you ever get the two notebooks referenced in item No. 37 in this index?

A I don't recall if I had them or not, If I did, they -- again, they don't register in my mind.

Q All right. Exhibit 500-5E, how is this particular

2605

exhibit organized by you for purposes of the biography if at all?

A I don't believe it was organized by me.

This probably came out of a couple of files now under seal. And I simply delivered it to Mr. Garrison, a group of materials dealing with Hubbard Explorational Company. So it may or may not be in order. It doesn't look like it is in order.

Q Did you, among the HEC documents, find any dividends being paid?

A I don't recall anything like that.

Q Did you interview any of the former directors of HEC?

A Let me think. Well, Hank Laarhuis was interviewed.

Q By you?

A No; probably Francis Scheuer.

Did you receive the fruits of Francis Scheuer's interview?

A I am pretty sure.

Q And those interviews were in your archives area?

A I believe so. It was among a whole bunch of interviews which he did.

I seem to recall those people having been done, but, again, there were so many done I can't say for sure.

2606

But I recall those people.

Q Do you recall any specific interview with either of them that had to do with HEC?

A No.

Q You don't know, or no?

A I don't recall anything within the interview if I even listened to it; although I think I heard Ray Thacker's interview. I don't recall the subject of HEC at that time.

Q Do you recall from any of your documents why HEC was formed?

A By which do you mean what was going on at that time?

Q Yes.

A Which would necessitate it being formed?

Q Yes.

A Okay. Around the same date --

Q Which was what when HEC was formed?

A During the '66-'67 period.

2607

Q Right.

A There was -- Mr. Hubbard was under investigation.

Q By whom?

A Well I believe -- he mentions the IRS at one point and he mentions whatever the British equivalent is.

Q Inland Revenue?

A Inland Revenue.

Q Right?

A Okay.

Q So his taxes were under investigation?

A Uh-huh.

Q And that is what you got from the documents that are in the archives?

A I am telling you about what was going on at that period.

Q From the documents in your archives; right?

A That is correct.

Q Okay.

A Also, there was attempts to get Mr. Hubbard served during that period.

Q Who was making such attempts?

MR. FLYNN: I wasn't around then, Your Honor.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: From the documents in the archives?

A I believe -— there may be a newspaper suit which was going on although I don't at this point recall the name of what it was, but within the documents is a note from Mr. Hubbard regarding service and regarding his not being around for service.

2608

Q In the period when HEC was being formed?

A That's right, in the '66-'67 period.

Q Is that document in the documents under seal, Mr. Armstrong?

A There is something like that.

Q Do you recall what package there is something like that?

A I may be able to locate it.

Q All right. Were you aware of something called the Sea Project at that time?

A Yes.

Q From the documents in your archives --

THE COURT: Have you ever finished your explanation of why this HEC was formed or have we abandoned that subject?

THE WITNESS: No, I think he's into it again, Your Honor.

MR. HARRIS: He knows more than --

Q Do you recall the question?

A Did I know of the existence of the Sea Project?

Q Yes.

A Yes.

Q And did you interview anyone in the Sea Project?

A I don't know if I did, but there were a number of interviews done from that period.

Q And who were the members of the Sea Project who were interviewed and by whom?

A Well, Laurel was interviewed by Omar Garrison. Ron Pook was interviewed by Omar Garrison.

I believe Leon Steinberg, possibly a part of that,

2609

he was interviewed. There were -- Hana Eltringham, there were a number of people who were interviewed from the Sea Project or from that period.

Q And you had access to these interviews?

A I had access. I did not listen to many of them. I listened to parts of some of the interviews.

Q The documents that you had about the do you recall what they were?

A Well there was one under seal which had to do with the Sea Project finances.

Q Yes.

A Some of the original orders referred to the Sea Project. I have seen a lot of them. I do not have any of them in archives. That is principally it right now.

Q Was there amongst the documents that you had in the archives a document which talked about forming a land base?

A Yes.

Q Outside of England?

A Yes.

Q And do you know whether in 1966 as L. Ron Hubbard was in Las Palmas and so on that there was work going on attempting to find a land base?

A I have seen documents to that effect.

Q Did you pretty much document for the biographical purposes the time track of that period, Mr. Armstrong?

A No, not in the depth that I had earlier years principally because Mr. Garrison was not up to that point at that time, but I was able to assemble at least some material

2610

dealing with those years in the '60's and '70's.

Q But as far as the completeness of it, you didn't feel that it was complete?

A Probably not. I got together what I could.

As I say, Mr Garrison had not written that part. There was going to be holes and we were going to have to fill it in, but during a great deal of that period it is very complete. During other small parts it is not.

Q Is there some particular area of Mr. Hubbard's life, Mr. Armstrong that you felt you had totally researched?

A No.

Q Was there some part of Mr. Hubbard's life, Mr. Armstrong, that you felt that you had an adequate job of researching such that a biography could be written from your materials?

A Oh, I think that the whole I did sufficiently well for a biography to be written, a biography of enough detail and with enough weight to show what the man's life had been about.

Obviously L. Ron Hubbard himself was not going to be able to be interviewed and to cross-check anything.

Q Well, let me ask you this --

A But I think that the matter of material and the detail of the material would lend itself to the creation of a very thorough biography.

2611

Q Let me ask you this: you have testified, as I recall, that L. Ron Hubbard controlled all of Scientology; right?

A That is correct.

Q And that he had Commodore's messengers who would pass messages on to him; right?

A That is correct.

Q And in turn they would pass these messages from him to others; right?

A Yes.

Q And during the period while you were on the archives post was there a messenger on duty?

A Well, there may have been. Initially there certainly was.

Q You didn't know if there was a messenger on duty, let's say, in 1981?

A When I began the archives post, which is what you said, there definitely was a messenger on duty.

I routed the dispatch via the messenger on duty.

Mr. Hubbard left taking with him two messengers; no communication to Mr. Hubbard went to him without going via the messengers. So there was a messenger on duty.

Additionally, the CMO throughout that period even maintained a messenger on duty in the CMO. It may have been a symbolic gesture, but there certainly was M on D throughout at least some of that period.

Q Directing your attention to 500-5H, did you find that this resignation as trustee had been filed any place?

2612

A I didn't find that.

Q Were you aware of an entity called The United States Churches of Scientology Trust?

A I don't know if I recall that exact name.

Q Do you recall having any documents in your archives about The United States Churches of Scientology Trust?

A I believe that within the materials that relate to Mr. Hubbard's control of Scientology finances after 1966, there are mentions of that or, at least, some trust.

Q What materials specifically are you recalling now? Can you tell me more specifically what it is that you recall?

A I could probably locate it from amongst the documents here in this court.

Q Can you give us a little better description of it at this time? what is it? Is it a trust agreement? What is it?

A There's a reference -- I believe it is a reference to that in Mr. Hubbard's communications regarding -- I think this was in '67 or '68 -- regarding getting the -- he called it the pay back of the LRH good will and obtaining the 10 percents and how they were to be sent via Saint Hill to him.

Q Did you interview Derek Field?

A No.

Q Do you know who Derek Field is?

A I have heard the name. U.K. Scientologist.

2613

Q And Chartered Accountant?

A Yes. I met him.

Q Did you have any accountings for United States Churches of Scientology Trust?

A I don't believe so.

Q When you say you met with him, where did you meet him?

A In Los Angeles.

Q When was that?

A He was there for the IRS case. It would probably be the spring of 1980.

Q Did you interview him or take the opportunity to interview him while he was there?

A No, I didn't.

Q Who was the treasury sec WW at the time 500-5X was prepared if you know?

A This says Robert Draper.

Q Did that comport with the other documents that you had in your possession?

A How do you mean "comport" with them?

A Well, the date of that is 7 March, '68.

A Okay.

Q Did you know that Mr. Draper was the treasury sec WW in 1968? That is, from your other documents?

A It didn't mean anything to me.

Q What is OTL WW?

A Operation Transport Liaison Worldwide.

2614

Q Did you have in your archives some articles of incorporation of something called OTS?

A Well I am not sure if we had the OTS articles or not. They were on the ship, but I don't recall right now if I had the OTS articles.

Q when you any they were on the ship, where did you see them on the ship?

A In the port captain's office.

Q was that a Panamanian corporation as far as you know?

A OTS?

Q Yes.

A You know, I am just not completely sure.

It seems to me that the ship had a Sierra Leone flag when they were under OTS, but I don't recall right now it the OTS was Panamanian or Liberian or maybe even British. I just don't recall that.

Q What did you understand the relationship between HEC and OTS to be, if any?

A From the documents it looked like HEC or OTS was the successor of HEC, or that they just scrapped -- Hubbard scrapped HEC and created OTS, using the same individuals, the same personnel to man it or to make money for it, those who had been in the Sea Project or the Sea Organization.

Q Were you aware from the documents that you had in your archives, Mr. Armstrong, that the Church of Scientology of California, UK branch was chartering a

2615

ship from HEC?

A Yes, I had seen that.

Q And were you aware that the Church of Scientology of California was sending money to HEC for the ship?

A I believe I had seen too.

Q And was it your understanding from the documents; that you sent to Mr. Flynn that that money sent by the Church of Scientology of California, UK branch was all going to L. Ron Hubbard?

A Was it my understanding that that was the case?

Q Yes, from the documents that you had.

A No.

Q Did you see the HEC —— can I have the exhibit?

A Yes.

Q Did you see the HEC accounting for the years that it was in existence?

A There is some accounting. I have not seen any total accounting for the company.

Q When you say "some accounting," you mean among the documents that are under seal here?

A Yes.

Q You specifically recall seeing OTS articles of incorporation aboard the ship?

A Something to do with OTC and my recollection is -- or OTS, and my recollection is that there were articles there or a similar document if it -— that is my recollection.

It was either articles or a document which is similar

2616

in some way to articles.

Q Speaking, by the way, of the LRH goodwill account, did you see any accountings within the documents that you had in the archives for that particular account?

A I have seen some materials on it. There was a program to create it and I don't know if that program is under seal or not.

Q And did you know if the program actually happened?

A Yes, I saw reports from the program, from the people who were involved in establishing the debt or the goodwill repayment.

Q This was something that someone had toted up what supposedly was owed to L. Ron Hubbard?

A It was the program to get that done.

Q Did you see the product of the program, Mr. Armstrong, among the documents that you had under seal?

A I don't recall if it is under seal or not. I did see such a product and I don't know if it was the completed thing or if it is the only one in existence or not. That is if it was a -- the final product. It had to do with that goodwill program.

Q Did you see any documents under seal, Mr. Armstrong, where L. Ron Hubbard forgave the debt that was supposed to be toted up on the LRH goodwill project?

A I had seen something like that. I don't think under seal.

2617

Q Elsewhere?

A Yes.

Q Directing your attention to exhibit 500 5D, there appears to be an accounting of some Swiss accounts which you in your direct testimony, I believe you said, you sent to Mr. Flynn for your defense?

A Okay.

2618

Q Now, I am talking about just the page which I have here.

What was the Scientology Mission account from the documents that you had under your control in the archives, Mr. Armstrong?

A I am not familiar with the accounts or what exactly they are.

My understanding of Scientology Mission account or, at least, the current ones are the monies made up from the 10 percents sent by the missions. But I really don't know. That may be referring to a particular mission.

Mr. Hubbard ordered that -- certainly, in 1966 -- that his trip to Rhodesia where, on the one hand he was claiming that he went there to set up a farm and other things like that, he later claimed that this was to be billed as a Scientology Mission. So that may be that account. I don't know exactly what that is.

Q so after you get through with all the speculation, did you have a document which told you in the archives what the Scientology Mission account was?

A No.

Q Did you have a document which covered the LRH blocked accounts cover guarantee?

A No.

Q Do you know what that was?

A No.

Q Do you know whether that was a loan to a South African Scientology entity?

2619

A I don't know.

Q No knowledge?

How about the LRH dollar trustee account? Did you have any documentation, Mr. Armstrong, about that account in your archives?

A There was some information, yes.

Q And how about the LRH Pound trustee account; did you have any information on that?

A There was some information on that subject as well.

Q Did you understand these to be LRH personal accounts?

A No. They were -- technically they were not personal accounts; legitimately they were not personal acounts.

Q These from your knowledge of the items in the archives documents; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q In fact, Mr. Armstrong, among all your documents in the archives, you didn't have a complete accounting for any account; did you?

A That is correct.

Q Nor did you speak with anybody who had responsibility for such accountings; correct?

A During what time and --

Q Well, did you speak with Derek Field, who was responsible for some accountings during that period?

A No.

2620

MR. FLYNN: Is Mr. Harris waiving the MCCS Mission, Your Honor, in regard to speaking to people about accounts?

MR. HARRIS: May I ask my next question, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Mr. Armstrong, with respect to exhibit 500-6A, this is in L. Ron Hubbard's handwriting; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And you are using exhibit 500-6A to show that L. Ron Hubbard still had control of, at least, the Church of Scientology of California U.K. during the period of time when he allegedly resigned as a director: is that correct?

A No.

This is dated July, '66. And he allegedly resigned as a director on 1 September, '66.

Q So why did you send that document to Mr. Flynn?

A Because it assists in adding up the whole picture of Mr. Hubbard's control and what he even did just prior -- in advance of his supposed resignation.

Q Were you aware, Mr. Armstrong, that as a United States citizen living in England Mr. Hubbard could not be paid as an employee of any organization?

MR. FLYNN: I object, Your Honor. That calls for a legal conclusion.

THE COURT: Are you asking if he could legally do so? There's nothing stopping him from getting paid if he wants to, is there?

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Let me ask you this: did you

2621

find out from the documents that it was the understanding of the people at the Church of Scientology of California U.K. that Mr. Hubbard could not be paid a salary while he was in the U.K.?

A Do you mean if that was the understanding of Mr. Hubbard?

Q No. I asked if from the documents you were able to ascertain that the people at U.K., that is, the Church of Scientology of California U.K., who were in the finance and so on area thought that Mr. Hubbard couldn't get paid?

THE COURT: Do you mean legally?

MR. HARRIS: Legally.

THE COURT: As distinguished from physically?

MR. HARRIS: Yes, legally.

THE WITNESS: I don't know about that.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Directing your attention to exhibit 500-6B, can you date that for me? I don't see the end number on that.

A It looks like 10 March, 1967.

2622

Q Where was Mr. Hubbard at that time?

A He may have been in Les Palmas.

Q Well that was in '66, was it not?

A Well he was there later as well.

Q In any event, it appears that Mr. Hubbard was in Las Palmas when that letter was written?

A Very possibly.

Q Now this is a letter from Mr. Hubbard to his wife; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q Please turn to page 9, the first paragraph, "Orgs sure act like it was their dough."

A Where is your page 9?

Q Well I hope it is the same as your page 9 or we are both going to be in trouble.

A Okay, I have two letters here.

Q Two being an original or one a copy or both copies.

A Two letters.

Q All right. I am referring to the one again -- I can't tell the date; can you, by the context of it?

A 10 March, '67.

Q And as far as you could tell, Mr. Hubbard was in Las Palmas when that was written?

A Yes.

Q would you please read to yourself the paragraph which begins, "Orgs sure act like it was their dough."

THE COURT: It is a long paragraph.

2623

THE WITNESS: Okay.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: You have read it?

A Yes.

Q From the documents that you had in the archives, Mr. Armstrong, did you research what Mr. Hubbard was saying in this letter to his wife from Las Palmas?

A Yes.

Q All right. He said, "I get no financial support from Orgs.”

What is an Org, by the way?

A An organization.

Q (Reading:)

"Yet look at my booming of St. Hill from April '64."

Did you have something which specifically was different than that?

A Oh, yes. The whole picture is different from this. This is just a standard lie which he gave to everyone.

Q That he is telling his wife as he is writing her; is that right?

A He lied to her continually.

Q I see. Specifically what did you have that showed that that was not true, Mr. Armstrong?

A Showed his control of Scientology funds throughout that period in which he had virtually whatever he wanted.

Q Some specific document that you have in

2624

mind where LRH got some support from the organizations, Mr. Armstrong?

A I think we could put it together just with the small amount of documents here under seal.

Q Do you have a specific one in mind?

A No but I could find the documents here.

Q All right. Look on the next page:

"It sure is a one-way flow and I sure am sick of it."

MR. FLYNN: Would you like one document, Mr. Harris?

THE COURT: Well, now, Counsel, don't interrupt.

You will have a chance on redirect.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: (Reading:)

"The whole 100,000 pounds has now gone for activities to assist Scientology."

Do you see that?

A Okay.

Q What 100,000 pounds was that, Mr. Armstrong, based on your research into what Mr. Hubbard said in this letter?

A In this letter, I'd have to go back to find exactly what it is. There is 100,000 pounds referenced throughout this money -- or throughout this period to Mary Sue. I cannot tell you exactly right now which 100,000 that is, whether or not it was money which he took or whether or not it was 100,000 which he was given to set up a Scientology organization somewhere or whether or not it is a hundred thousand for the ships. I don't know.

2625

He is still getting his 10 percents here and this is 1967.

Q Where does it say he is getting his 10 percent, Mr. Armstrong?

A (Reading:)

"I can't protect myself and my 10 percents until" --

2626

Q Until; right. Now, does it say that Mr. Hubbard is getting --

A "... I'm anxious to remove the Swiss funds to safer ground."

Q Yes. What specific document do you have in mind in respect to the $100,000 pounds, Mr. Armstrong?

A I'm not sure, but I can find references during this period to the $100,000 pounds. What exactly that is at this point, I don't know.

Q Next page: "... sometimes I think maybe people don't see what I am doing."

Do you find that?

A That sounds true.

Q "... sometimes I think that people don't see what I'm doing at all. Marilyn is trying to add my $140,000 or so mission to the SH Org balance sheet"; do you see that?

Who is Marilyn, by the way?

A That is probably Marilyn Routsong.

Q The one you didn't interview?

A The same Marilyn Routsong I didn't interview.

Q Right. Do you know about that $140,000, Mr. Armstrong?

No. I sure would like to, but I don't.

Q You didn't have anything in your archives which explained that $140,000?

A Maybe. You know, there is some accounting here. And it is real possible. But I don't recall what the 140 is.

2627

Q May I see that for a second so I can turn you to another page?

About the middle of the page, "... I just can't get over an Org's general attitude."

A It starts up above that.

"... now I am about to put in a new type course as the money maker of the age..."

Q Yes. "... and I am doing it with my own funds again..."; is that correct?

A Right.

Q And "... I just can't get over an Org's general attitude."

A That was a continual problem.

Q "... I had a collection committed but no money collected"; do you see that?

A No. That is "a committee." It says, "I had a collection committee."

Q But what --

A "... but" -- something on -- "this later. No money collected."

Q "It is almost a joke"?

A It was a joke.

Q "... make millions for us. Do and pay for all research. Keep yourself and we. Why we will be grateful for our jobs and a new life and we'll say thank you Ron."

Is that what it says? This is to his wife.

A He is a very benevolent man.

2628

Q "... but we can't seem to write you any checks or pay any cash debts to you."

Now, there's another reference to the 140,000 pounds.

"... the way I had to fight last year to get one note done and pay..." Then there is the 100,000 pounds.

Do you see that?

A Uh-huh.

Q Did you have such a note in the documents in the archives?

A Well, there are references to it.

Q Now, "... finds we in expending funds without funds and selling my house to meet the project..."

Do you recall that?

A Yes. The word there is "me." It is "finds me."

Q "finds me without funds" --

A "... expending funds and without funds and selling my house to complete the project."

Q Being aware of the history of Saint Hill, you knew that it had originally been purchased as L. Ron Hubbard's personal house; right?

A That is correct.

Q And you also knew that the organization began taking it over piece by piece; right?

A No. I wasn't aware of that.

Q Were you at Saint Hill, at any time, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

2629

Q And did you see the buildings there and were you given a tour?

A Well, I saw the buildings.

Q You weren't given a tour?

A I was a part of the Manor house.

Q The Manor house being the house that Mr. Hubbard is referring to in the letter?

A Right.

Q And did you see a deed of the sale of the Saint Hill Manor from L. Ron Hubbard to the Church of Scientology of California U.K. in your archives documents?

A I believe there is something to that effect.

There is information under seal about that sale.

2630

Q And I take it you were aware that Mr. Hubbard didn't even get all the money from the sale from the documents within your own archives, Mr. Armstrong?

A No, he got all the money.

Q You know that?

A In fact I think that the sale price was a little high.

Q You think the sale price was a little high?

Do you know what Mr. Hubbard purchased it for from the documents in your archives, Mr. Armstrong?

A No, I don't recall.

Q Do you know what the final sales price was, Mr. Armstrong?

A I think a million dollars.

Q And what document shows you that, Mr. Armstrong?

A There is something under seal or in the archives about it. There is a mention there about the transfer and how to work it out and see if you can make it —— the sale of a business. He called it the sale of a business.

Q Now you are talking about some document that you have that is under seal that you can find for us that says that St. Hill Manor was sold to the Church of Scientology of California, UK for a million dollars, Mr. Armstrong?

A I do recall seeing that somewhere. Whether or not that was the final price, I don't know. I really don't.

2631

Q The fact is you really didn't have any accounting from the period to figure out what Hr. Hubbard got or what he didn't get; isn't that true, Mr. Armstrong?

A No. All I saw —- there is a reference to a million dollars at one point, and there is also a statement about -- there is a price laid down on another document and there is another statement in which he asks to make it the sale of a business. Those things are here.

Q Mr. Armstrong, is it your state of mind as you sit here right now —— I will take the exhibit -- that Mr. Hubbard received a million dollars for the sale of St. Hill Manor?

A Well, I don't really know what he received. I do know that he continually cried the blues about how organization staff members were ripping him off, and I think that that was not the case. It was simply his psychosis manifesting itself in order to keep everyone else subjugated and thinking that they were indebted to him for saving their lives, so that is my state of mind.

THE COURT: Well, with that we will take a 15-minute recess.

(Recess.)

THE COURT: All right, we are back in session.

Mr. Armstrong, please state your name again for the record, sir. You are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: Gerald Armstrong.

THE COURT: You may continue, Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Your Honor.

[2]632

Q Mr. Amstrong, directing your attention to exhibit 500 7F, as I recall your testimony, you said that you sent that to Mr. Flynn because it showed Mr. Hubbard using someone else's name to front for him; is that correct?

A Yes. Well, this tied into another document, something written by this Tom Esterbrook.

2633

And it is mainly to show that the other document written by Tom Esterbrook was written by Mr. Hubbard. And that had to do with Mr. Hubbard being awarded a PhD and that one was authored by Tom Esterbrook who, as this shows, was in fact L. Ron Hubbard.

Q Mr. Armstrong, during your research of the area of L. Ron Hubbard as an author you discovered documents in your archives which showed that L. Ron Hubbard used various pen names; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q And the name Tom Esterbrook does not strike you as being one of his pen names?

A well, I know it to be one of his pen names.

Q And I take it within the archives you had other documents which in Mr. Hubbard's writing is the name Tom Esterbrook; is that correct?

A That is correct.

MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, I have an-exhibit, handwritten "The Devil's Argument by Tom Esterbrook"; may that be marked next in order?

THE COURT: All right. 56.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Showing you exhibit 56, Mr. Armstrong, do you recognize that from your archives?

A It may be, but I don't recognize it from the archives.

Q Do you recognize that as an item that you sent to Mr. Garrison?

A Again, it may be. It may be amongst various

2634

manuscripts. But I don't at this point recollect it.

MR. HARRIS; I have a two-page document, Your Honor, titled "The Background and Ceremonies of the Church of Scientology of California Worldwide."

May that be marked exhibit next in order, Your Honor?

THE COURT: 57.

MR. HARRIS: So Mr. Flynn can see that what I am marking as 57 is a true copy out of this book -- this is the original.

MR. FLYNN: I accept your representation, Mr. Harris.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Did you have occasion while you were in Scientology at any time to read the book "The Church of Scientology" which contained the ceremonies of the church?

A I have read some materials from there.

Q Directing your attention --

I have taken the front page and page 55 from that book and made it exhibit 57. F

Directing your attention to the book, do you see "A Funeral For Homo Sapiens" by "Tom Esterbrook" there?

A Yes.

2635

Q And in your archives, Mr. Armstrong, did you have "A Funeral for Homo Sapiens" in L. Ron Hubbard's handwriting?

A I don't know if I did or not. I don't recall it if I did.

Q Did you see such in the Controller archives?

A I may have. I don't believe that it is among the materials which I obtained from Controller archives. I may have been shown it by Mr. Vorm, but in any case it doesn't stick with me as anything of any significance.

MR. HARRIS: I have two documents, Your Honor, the first being the Auditor Worldwide No. 13. I have the original here which is a bit yellowed, and I have copied from the first page on two pages.

May that be marked exhibit S8?

THE COURT: yes, it may be so marked.

MR. HARRIS: I also have another original Auditor entitled "The Auditor Worldwide No. 13 Special Reissue." May that be marked plaintiff's 59?

THE COURT: Very well.

MR. HARRIS: These are the originals, M. Flynn, if you wish to look at them.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you.

Q BY HR. HARRIS: Do you recall seeing in your archives or the Controller archives the Auditor Worldwide Issue 13?

A I'm pretty sure I had this because I had pretty well a complete set of Auditors, but it itself

2636

doesn't come to mind.

Q Would you compare exhibits 58 and 59 under the caption "A Philosophy Wins After 2000 Years” and note for the record the authors on exhibit 58 first which is the yellower one and exhibit 59 next?

A Okay.

Q Does it appear to be the same article under the name Tom Esterbrook and L. Ron Hubbard in the respective exhibits?

A They appear to be the same.

Q "But in your sending exhibit 500 7F to Mr. Flynn, it was to show that Mr. Hubbard was using someone to front for him; right?

A No, you have misunderstood the use of the Tom Esterbrook. It was simply to show that that was indeed his pen name which he was using as opposed to the one -— the letters he wrote for someone else in the organization to sign. This simply showed that the other documents which had been written by Tom Esterbrook, in fact had been written by him.

Q Now, as I recall your testimony was that from the documents that you had obtained for the archives, Mr. Hubbard's Naval period, you could document day by day if not week by week; is that correct?

A Well, through practically the whole of the war. There may have been some small pieces where there was periods missing, but generally on a pretty detailed basis you could document where he was at any given time.

2637

Q Did you yourself obtain documents from any official agency of the United States to document day by day where Mr. Hubbard was during the Second World War?

A No, I didn't because it looked like we had everything that was within the official records, in addition to whatever Mr. Hubbard had in his own archives. So, between the two, it looked like we had more than what I would be able to get from any other agency.

MR. HARRIS: May I have just a moment, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: It was from the documents that you had from the Naval area, Mr. Armstrong, that you concluded that Mr. Hubbard had never been in combat; is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q Were you aware that there was an agency that had records on ships in the United States Navy?

A I imagine there is.

2638

Q You didn't bother to research what that agency was?

A No. I researched it through a number of books on vessels during the war, specifically vessels on which Mr. Hubbard was stationed or positioned during the war. I did not go to the military authorities, however.

Q Mr. Armstrong, how many ships or boats was Mr. Hubbard was in command of in the period of the second World War?

THE COURT: A boat would be something you can put on board a ship, according to Navy terminology.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Let's take ships, given that definition, Mr. Armstrong?

A In command of two.

Q what were the two?

A YP 422 and PC 815.

MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, I have a certified copy of an action report in respect to the U.S.S. PC 815.

May that be marked Plaintiff's next in order?

THE COURT: 60. Okay.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Directing your attention to exhibit 60, Mr. Armstrong, PC 815 was one of the ships that Mr. Hubbard was in command of?

A Yes.

Q And did you attempt at any time in your research to find out what was at the Naval Historical Center on the PC 815?

A No.

2639

But yet, you claimed in your direct examination that you could document where Mr. Hubbard was on almost a day-to-day basis; right?

A That is correct.

Q Now, would you, please, take a close look at exhibit 60?

2640

What was the PC 815 by all your research, Mr. Armstrong?

A It was a small patrol, coastal patrol vessel.

Q When you say small, did you research the tonnnage?

A I had its tonnage. I don't recall what it was right now.

Q In fact, it was a submarine chaser; was it not?

A I believe so, yes.

Q And what is a Corvette, Hr. Armstrong?

A A Corvette is also a similar vessel, usually a designation given by the British.

Q And what is a squadron, Mr. Armstrong?

A A squadron would be a group of things.

A group of ships?

A It could be, yes.

Q From the documents that you had in the archives, you also concluded that Mr. Hubbard was not the commander of a squadron of Corvettes; isn't that right?

A That is correct.

Q Have you had a chance to look at exhibit 60?

A Some of it, yes.

Q Please turn to page 4 bottom paragraph: "At 1306 SC 536 was sighted."

What is an SC?

A I am not sure.

2641

Q You, I take it, looked at "Jane's fighting I ships" to find out what the PC 815 was?

A Well I don't know if I looked in Jane's, but I obtained information on the PC 815 in a publication of some sort.

Q See if I can refresh your recollection.

Do you recall looking at Jane's at all, "Jane's fighting ships 1943-44"?

A No, not that.

Q So you weren't aware that SC was a designation for submarine chaser?

A A No, I didn't. If I did know it, I don't recall it now.

Q All right.

Please turn to page 10 first paragraph:

"It was at this time that K 33, who was on the scene, gave command of all surface ships to the PC 815."

Do you see that?

A Okay.

Q Now, if you will go through the first 10 pages, you can tell me if you know how many ships the PC 815 was given command of in this incident?

THE COURT: Well, this is the report of Mr. Hubbard. I suppose you mean in referring to within the report of Mr. Hubbard?

MR. HARRIS: Yes, that is correct. with the documents of the other crew members attached.

2642

THE COURT: You mean including the anti—submarine blimps he is referring to?

MR. HARRIS: No, Your Honor, not the blimps, just the ships.

Q Maybe I can help a bit. On page 4, Mr; Armstrong, there is a reference to the SC 536; do you see that at the bottom, last paragraph?

A On page 4?

2643

Q That's right.

A Okay.

Q And on page 6, the second to the last paragraph, "... Coast Guard Patrol Boat 78302."

Page 7, the last five lines of the page, "SC 537. SC 536."

Do you see that?

And if you turn to page 15, the second full paragraph "PC 778."

Mr. Armstrong, you were in Washington, D.C. while you were on the biography research project; were you not?

A No.

Q Did you go to Washington, D.C. during the period 1980 through the time you left the church?

A No.

Q May I have that?

A Sure.

Q Did you know that there was another location where one could get access to records on ships in the United States Navy during the second World War, Mr. Armstrong?

A I'm sure that there are various sources.

Q None of which you researched; right?

A well, as I say, I went through some books on the subject. But that was it. I never went to D.C. And I obviously never checked the sources that whoever did this research was able to check.

So I stand corrected.

Q In general, Mr. Armstrong, it is the case that

2644

you didn't search out documents other than what you could get from internal church sources; isn't that correct?

A Is that a question?

Q Yes.

A No.

Q You went and obtained some materials which you purchased with church money to bring back from the archives from outside the church; right?

A I did that.

Q What percentage of the items that you had in the archives were purchased by you from outside sources?

A I think it was a very small percentage.

Q Like what, 1 percent maybe?’

A Possibly even less.

Q And the rest of the items that you had in the archives came from within the Scientology organization; right?

A No.

Q All right. Please, tell me what the other sources of documents in your archives were.

A There were a number of genealogy studies which I did; information obtained from Utah, from Iowa, from Nebraska, library research on various subjects, various books checked.

2645

Q Well, for example --

A Court records checked in Washington, in Florida, in Montana.

Q So you got some court records from courts in those various States?

A Yes.

Q What other documents did you obtain from outside the Scientology organization in connection with Mr. Hubbard's biography, Mr. Armstrong?

A I think those are what I have told you.

Q And what percentage of the documents in the archives were those court documents, Mr. Armstrong?

A Again it is a very small percentage, probably equivalent to the purchased items, maybe a total of a thousand pages.

Q What was the other ship that Hr. Hubbard commanded, Mr. Armstrong?

A It was the YP 422.

MR. FLYNN: Certified documents from Naval archives, Your Honor, which contain several pages involving different ships. May that be marked plaintiff's next in order?

THE COURT: are we up to 61?

MR. HARRIS: 61, yes.

Q The YP 422, what kind of ship was that, Mr. Armstrong?

A The reference I have seen to it it was called a heavy beam trawler.

Q And I take it that during the period that

2646

Mr. Hubbard was in command of YP 422 you were aware of what was happening in and around the Boston Harbor where the YP 422 was docked; is that correct?

A No I don't know what you are referring to.

Q Well, did you read books about the Second World war to see what was happening the first six months of 1942 on the Northeast Coast of the United States with respect to German submarines?

A No.

Q Did you look up the Donald Duck Navy?

A No.

Q were you aware of any submarine activity in the North Atlantic during that period of time, Mr. Armstrong?

A I have heard of North Atlantic submarine activity, yes.

Q Do you know that during the period of time that Mr. Hubbard was in the Boston Harbor on the YP 422 that there was anti-submarine task force set up in the Boston Harbor?

A No, I didn't know that.

Q Did you know that the United State Government was seizing yachts for the purpose of anti—submarine warfare in that period of time, Mr. Armstrong?

A I have heard of that, but I don't know specifically in relationship to this location and this time.

Q Now, you testified on May 12 at page 1835, Mr. Armstrong:

2647

"He lost command of the first one before had ever put to sea."

That was your testimony; is that right?

A During the conversion.

Q Now you didn't mean, did you, Mr. Armstrong, YP 422 was docked the whole time in the Boston Harbor?

A I don't know if it was docked the whole time. I know that it was undergoing conversion during that period and it was during the conversion that Mr. Hubbard lost command.

Q Therefore, you concluded in your opinion that the ship, the YP 422, never even got under way; is correct?

A No, I knew that they had been in the water because of some tests that they had run, but I knew that he lost command during the conversion.

Q Let me ask you this, Mr. Armstrong. when did Mr. Hubbard lose, as you say, his command of the YP 422?

A I don't recall the date at this point.

The correspondence on that subject is under seal here. I just don't recall the date exactly.

Q By the way, did you attempt to interview in your research anyone of the people who had been in the Navy with Mr. Hubbard?

2648

A We had some notes from various people or a couple of people who we had learned had been in the Navy and I tried to contact them and was unsuccessful during that time.

Q Who were they, Mr. Armstrong?

A The people who -- I don't recall the names. I had crew lists for his various ships. And SO-1 had noted a couple of people who had written in sometime later learning that this was the same L. Ron Hubbard that they had been in the Navy with, had written in. And I got those -- the names of those people, whatever addresses or means of contacting them I could. But was unsuccessful during the time when I was in the -- on the archives post.

MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, I have a series of documents which are actually kind of four parts of one item. I don't know if you want it marked collectively or not —- maybe not. Maybe we had better not do it that way.

The first one —-

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I would, again, request that these documents be given to me somewhat in advance. I am sure that the plaintiff has known for some time that he intended to use these documents.

MR. HARRIS: These documents, as you can see by the certifications, were just very recently obtained, within the last few days.

In respect to the other items, they were given to Mr. Flynn right after the break.

MR. FLYNN: I'm getting them as they are being used, Your Honor.

2649

THE COURT: As I have indicated before, there was an order that they were to be given to the defense counsel forthwith. I assume that they didn't exist at that time or you didn't have your hands on them and you would deliver them as soon as you did get them.

MR. HARRIS: As Your Honor sees from the certification of those, one was on the 16th and it has got to come from Washington to here. And on that, I saw it for the first time yesterday. And the same thing with the other item, yesterday.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. HARRIS: May I have just a moment to get these in order, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: I have a document which is entitled "Duplicate of No. 175."

May that be marked Plaintiff's next in order, Your Honor?

THE COURT: 62.

MR. HARRIS: And the next one entitled "LRH Journal"; may that be marked exhibit 63, Your Honor?

THE COURT: YES.

Q BY MR. HARRIS: Showing you exhibit 62, Mr. Armstrong, do you recognize that?

A Yes.

Q That was something that was in your archives?

A Yes.

Q Is that document under seal?

2650

A I don't believe so.

Q I take it in your Asia period research you made a chronology of where Mr. Hubbard was at various times during the period 1925 through 1929?

A As much as possible, yes.

1925, I think, predates anything to do with the Asia by a couple of years.

Q When is the first time that you discovered from your documents that Mr. Hubbard had been in Asia? What year?

A I recall 1927.

Q And you stated in your testimony that Mr. Hubbard, despite the claim of having been in Asia during a certain period, actually had only gone there once on a trip with the YMCA; is that correct?

A Yes. The claim into Peking.

Q And the trip was a brief trip, perhaps on a train a week or two weeks total: is that right?

A That is correct.

Q Now, the item that you have before you which is exhibit 61, in what year does this appear to be a trip to Asia?

A I think this is 1927.

2651

Q So the first paragraph of that exhibit, June 13, refers to June 13, 1927; is that correct?

A I believe so.

I think we can date it with this thing, but I just haven't come across a date yet.

Q well --

A I am pretty sure it is 1927.

Q On the first page he leaves —- I am now looking down, he is talking about being on deck to view Hawaii. So I take it he is at sea at that time?

A Yes.

Q And about four paragraphs up from the bottom he is leaving Honolulu.

A Okay.

Q And then the last paragraph, "Fujiyama came into view."

That is Japan: right?

A Okay.

Q Is this the YMCA trip that you referred to in your testiony, Mr. Armstrong?

A I don't believe this is it. That was in 1928.

Q And on the next page about mid—way, "At 9 o'clock the next night we reached Kobe"; Kobe being in Japan?

A Okay.

Q And the next page third paragraph down,

"We knew when we reached the Yellow Sea." That is the China area: right?

2652

A Uh-huh.

Q And two paragraphs down there in reference to Shanghai?

Q That is China: Shanghai, China?

A Yes.

Q And the third paragraph from the bottom, "We took a French car through the Bund to the Palace Hotel in Shanghai."

Again he is still in Shanghai?

A Right.

Q And then the next page 4 fourth paragraph down, "Hong Kong came next." Do you see that?

A Yes.

Q And about six paragraphs down from that, "Two days later we arrived in Manila."

A Um-mm. This is in 1927?

Q That's right, 1927. You dated it: right?

A That's right.

Q And then he arrives in the Philippines, looking at page 5; do you recognize the place there: San Antonio, Guadalupe?

A I believe you. You can go ahead.

Q Well it is not me that is to be believed, Mr. Armstrong. It is you.

A Or Mr. Hubbard.

Q Right, and then on the next page is Guam, where he arrived in Guam?

2653

A Yes.

Q And turning to page 10 he is weighing anchor and leaving Guam?

A Yes.

Q And it is aboard the USS Nitro?

A Okay.

Q And he -- by the way, you have read this before; right?

A Yes.

Q When you were in the archives?

A Yes.

Q And on page 12 he is at the Hawaian Islands?

A Yes.

Q And finally on the last page he appears to be arriving back in Washington on August 6, 1927: right?

A 0kay.

2654

Q Now, the periods of time that he is on board the ship and in Asiatic waters visiting Asiatic cities is from June 30th to the time that he arrives back in the United States which is August 6th; that is about two months, sir -- I'm sorry; a month and six days?

A Your statement was the amount of time he was in Asiatic waters or visiting Asiatic cities.

Q Okay.

A So we would have to take off a lot of that time.

So I think if you go through, you'll find that, indeed, he did visit -- while on board a vessel, he did go to Japan, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Manila, Philippines and Guam.

MR. HARRIS: Showing the witness exhibit 63 --

Q Exhibit 63 is something that you had with you in your archives?

A Yes.

Q Now, you read that at the time; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q By the way, did you put the pagination up at the top right-hand side of the item?

A I am not following which pagination you are talking about.

Q There appears to be some -- like 25, 29, 31.

A No. My cover note here explains how that is the case.

Q That was written by you?

A Yes.

Q Do you recognize the writing as that of

2655

Mr. Hubbard?

A Yes.

Q And can you indicate that for the court.

A As well as I could there.

Q 1928?

A 1928, 1930.

Q So would you look at what is paginated 61 up at the top with an actual like a mechanical number: "... I have been back in the States nearly a year."

That was correct, according to exhibit 62; in other words, this followed exhibit 62 in the archives?

A It -- it very easily may have. I think the Vigilante Day incident did occur in 1928. I am not completely certain of that, but that is my best recollection at this time.

I would have been able to date it better at the time. And that is probably why I said that this was written between 1928 and 1930.

Q And on page 67 it appears that he is leaving for Guam on the lst of July aboard the Henderson; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And you had a driver's license in your archives which Mr. Hubbard obtained on the Island of Guam; did you not?

A I may have.

MR. HARRIS: I have what appears to be a Naval Government of Guam driver's license, Your Honor, issued to

2656

L.R. Hubbard.

May that be marked Plaintiff's 64?

THE COURT: Very well. 64.

Q BY HR. HARRIS: Let me see if exhibit 64 refreshes your recollection as to whether Mr. Hubbard received a driver's license in Guam around July 31st, 1928.

A Okay.

Q Now, we have him in Guam on the 31st of July, 1928; is this the boy scout trip you referred to -- strike that -- the YMCA trip that you referred to in your testimony on direct examination, Mr. Armstrong?

A Is what, this license?

2657

Q No. The trip where he is in Guam on July 31, 1928.

A No, I am referring to, I believe, a later period or some time around than when he visited China.

It was in Mainland China, not a coast city, and it had to do with a trip to the Great Wall, and it was a YMCA tour in conjunction with the Navy or the Military.

Q Did you make a time track in writing up Mr. Hubbard's travels as noted in exhibit 62?

A This is a time track.

Q That is what you mean by a time track?

A Well, this one follows on in some cases a daily basis throughout that period. This is a pretty good time track.

Q So we can speed this up tomorrow, it being almost 4 o'clock, Mr. Armstrong, would you please look through exhibits 62 and 63 over the break, and I will give you one more which will be, if the court please, 64 -- 65 which I will give you now because I will be asking you some questions about it tomorrow.

May we break now, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Okay. We will take our recess.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, before we break, there is one matter I'd like to inquire about.

Mr. Flynn has indicated to me his intetion to call Mrs. Hubbard next as a witness, and we would appreciate if the court could require some parameters as to what the scope of her intended testimony is going to be. I

2658

have no idea of what subject matters.

I don't know whether or not it is Mr. Flynn's intention to inquire concerning your knowledge of her husband's biographical history or exactly what.

The only relevant testimony that I could see is if they are going to ask her about the privacy of the documents, but I think it would be helpful if we could have some idea of what the court is going to allow by way of examination of her at this point in terms of scope.

2659

THE COURT: Well, what do you have in mind, Mr. Flynn?

MR. FLYNN: I'm not sure, Your Honor. We are the defense. And Mr. Armstrong has been cross-examined now for four days and -- four and a half days, whatever it is -- three and a half days. And I don't expect it will be very long.

There are a few areas that I will probably inquire into, but I haven't worked out my examination completely yet.

MR. HARRIS: Also, Your Honor, Mr. Flynn has subpoenaed Mr. Sandy Block of the church, Lymon Spurlock. I mean there is a whole string of witnesses plus he has promised Laurel Sullivan and who knows who else. And Laurel Sullivan, I understand, has to do with the MCCS stuff. But I mean how long a defense and what is the relevance? And is there an offer of proof?

MR. FLYNN: I'm going to try --

THE COURT: I am not going to get involved in that at this time. He is conducting his defense. I'll worry about it in due course.

We have had this one witness on the stand now for virtually two weeks. And I don't see that it is getting close to being concluded.

MR. HARRIS: It is getting close, Your Honor.

THE COURT: There will be redirect and recross-examination. We have a ways to go.

MR. FLYNN: I notified Mr. Litt that Mary Sue Hubbard is my next witness and then Laurel Sullivan.

2660

We'll make every effort we can to narrow it and end this trial. But the court basically has the picture.

2661

MR. LITT: Your Honor, one other matter. We still have this pending issue of Mr. Franks. We discussed the question of having his deposition taken prior to his testimony and we would like to make some arrangements in that regard if it is going to happen.

MR. FLYNN: Maybe they can stipulate to it, Your Honor. At this point it would be to confirm that he was locked up for three weeks in November 1981, and he had to sign an undated letter of resignation that was given to Mr. Hubbard when he became the highest official of the Church of Scientology in 1980 and 1981. Basically those two items.

THE COURT: Well, at least you know what he has in mind.

(At 4:03 p.m. the proceedings were adjourned until Tuesday, May 22, 1984 at 9:00 a.m.)