Reporters' Daily Transcript (May 18, 1984)
Armstrong 1SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
DEPARTMENT NO. 57 HON. PAUL G. BRECKENRIDGE, JR., JUDGE
| CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA, Plaintiff, vs. GERALD ARMSTRONG, Defendant. MARY SUE HUBBARD, Intervenor. |
) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) |
No. C 420153 |
REPORTERS’ TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Friday, May 18, 1984
APPEARANCES:
(See Appearances Page)
| VOLUME 15 Pages 2345-2520, incl. |
NANCY L. HARRIS, CSR #644 HERB CANNON, CSR #1923 Official Reporters |
APPEARANCES:
| For the Plaintiff: | PETERSON & BRYNAN| BY: JOHN G. PETERSON 8530 Wilshire Boulevard Suite 407 Beverly Hills, California 90211 (213) 659-9965 -and- ROBERT N. HARRIS The Oviatt Building 617 South Olive Street Suite 915 Los Angeles, California 90014 (213) 623-7511 |
| For the Intervenor: | LITT & STORMER BY: BARRETT S. LITT Paramount Plaza 3550 Wilshire Boulevard Suite 1200 Los Angeles, California 90010 (213) 386-4303 -and- BARRETT S. LITT BY: MICHAEL S. MAGNUSON The Oviatt Building 617 South Olive Street Suite 1000 Los Angeles, California 90014 (213) 623-7511 |
| For the Defendant: | CONTOS & BUNCH BY: MICHAEL J. FLYNN - and- JULIA DRAGOJEVIC 5855 Topanga Canyon Boulevard Suite 400 Woodland Hills, California 91367 (213) 716-9400 |
| I | |||
| INDEX FOR VOLUME 15 | Pages 2345-2520, incl. |
||
| DAY | DATE | PAGE |
|
| Friday | May 18, 1984 | A.M. | 2345 |
| P.M. | 2437 | ||
WITNESS
| DEFENSE: | CROSS |
| ARMSTRONG, Gerald | |
| (resumed) | 2347-L |
| (resumed) | 2437-L
2455-H |
EXHIBITS
| PLAINTIFF’S: | FOR IDENTIFICATION | |
| The following all relate to the 500-series: | ||
| 1-letter 7-11-66 | 2392 | |
| 2-Document “Constitution” | 2393 | |
| 3-Document 5-5-66 | 2394 | |
| 4 - Letter 1-3-66 | 2396 | |
| 5 - Letter 1-8-67 | 2397 | |
| 6 - Letter 1-25-67 | 2398 | |
| 7 - Letter LRH to Mary Sue | 2400 | |
| 8 - Letter 2-3-67 | 2400 | |
| 9 - Letter 2-11-67 | 2401 | |
| 10 - Letter 1-9-68 | 2402 | |
| 14 - Letter 2-20-38 | 2403 | |
| 15 - Telegram to LRH from his mother | 2404 | |
| 16 - Letter to LRH from his mother | 2404 | |
II
INDEX FOR VOLUME 15 (Continued)EXHIBITS
| PLAINTIFF’S: | FOR IDENTIFICATION |
| 17 - Letter from LRH’s mother to him & Polly | 2405 |
| 18 - Letter 5-16-43 | 2405 |
| 22 - Letter 4-14-55 | 2406 |
| 23 - Letter 12-29-57 | 2407 |
| 24 - Letter 12-13-58 | 2407 |
| 25 - Letter 12-18-58 | 2408 |
| 26 - Letter 12-21-58 | 2408 |
| 27 - Letter from LRH’s mother and father | 2409 |
| 29 - Letter 5-10-38 | 2410 |
| 30 - Letter from LRH to Polly | 2410 |
| 31 - Letter 12-30-33 from LRH to Polly | 2410 |
| 32 - Letter from LRH to Polly | 2411 |
| 33 - Letter from LRH to Polly | 2411 |
| 34 - Letter 7-9-34 LRH to Polly | 2413 |
| 37 - Sea Org contract of employment | 2455 |
| 38 - Sea Org Flag order No. 2673 | 2465 |
| 39 - Sea Org Flag order No. 3395 | 2515 |
| 40 - Letter Polly to LRH | 2413 |
| 41 - Letter LRH to Polly | 2413 |
| 42 - Letter from Mr. to Mrs. Hubbard | 2414 |
| 43 - Letter Polly to LRH | 2414 |
| 44 - Letter from LRH to Polly | 2316 |
| 45 - Letter to LRH from Polly | 2316 |
| 46 - Letter to LRH from Polly | 2316 |
| 47 - Letter to LRH from Polly | 2316 |
III
INDEX FOR VOLUME 15 (Continued)EXHIBITS
| PLAINTIFF’S: | FOR IDENTIFICATION |
| 51 - Set of documents with C&B on them | 2317 |
| 52 - Set of documents with C&B on them | 2318 |
| 54 - Under seal | 2420 |
| 55 - Under seal | 2420 |
| 56 - Under seal | 2420 |
| 57 - Sealed envelope “Key to Dr. Hubbard’s bedroom desk” with key inside | 2420 |
| 58 - Original draft of Excaliber | [2423] 2323 |
| 61 - (Not described on the record) | 2429 |
| 62 - (Not described on the record) | 2429 |
2345
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, MAY 18, 1984; 9:05 A.M.
-o0o-
THE COURT: Very well, in the case on trial let the record reflect that counsel are present.
GERALD ARMSTRONG, the witness on the stand at the time of the adjournment, having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:
THE COURT: The witness has retaken the stand. Please state your name again for the record, sir. You are still under oath.
THE WITNESS: Gerald Armstrong.
MR. FLYNN: If Your Honor please, I don’t want to quote any great religious leader in these proceedings, but in the words of Confucius, “A picture may be worth a thousand words.”
It occurs to me that the difference between the pictures in Mr. Armstrong’s wedding photo album that went to his parents for what would be testified to as PR purposes and the pictures of Jim and Nancy Dincalci and Kima Douglas are significantly different and would explain why the picture in the photo album were returned to Mr. Armstrong and why the other photos were not returned, which goes to the issue of particularly the statement “Go get yourself a lawyer,” and the threat during the meeting that the photos of the Douglases and the Dincalcis were stolen from Mr. Armstrong.
2346
So I would make a request at this time that the court issue an order that the photographs of the Dincaicis and the Douglases be produced so the court could inspect them and compare them to the photos in the wedding albums.
MR. HARRIS: Do we have the photos in the wedding albums even here?
MR. FLYNN: We are going to bring those in, Your Honor.
MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, I spent last evening looking for more biography material. It will not be used on the cross-examination, but it appears to be writeups from Mr. Armstrong to various people within complaining about treatments that these biographies that are coming to him contain.
So in the interest o£ fair play and all of that stuff, I’ll give them to Mr. Flynn. We’ll mark them. And if Mr. Armstrong identifies them as his, that is all that will be to it and the clerk can read them.
THE COURT: Do you want the clerk to read them?
MR. HARRIS: It is up to Your Honor what you want. But they do seem to have some bearing, it appears on — indeed, maybe in favor of Mr. Armstrong’s testimony to some extent.
THE COURT: Let’s let Mr. Flynn use them if he wants to for whatever purpose he wants to use them. And we won’t worry about them until they are being used.
2347
Mr. Flynn has now made a request for the photographs. I don’t know what the situation is on those photographs.
MR. FLYNN: I don’t either, Your Honor.
MR. LITT: Nor do I, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Maybe you can make an inquiry through whatever channels are available to you. I am sure the witness is capable of describing of what is in the photographs, if you want to go into that on redirect, Mr. Flynn.
MR. FLYNN: That would be helpful.
As I said, Your Honor, I think a picture might be worth a thousand words.
THE COURT: It might be. Anything is possible.
You may continue, Mr. Litt.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. LITT:
Q Mr. Armstrong, I think we had left off yesterday where we had talked about the fact that after your photographs were returned to you by Virgil Wilhite and then you had this meeting at — I’m not sure “meeting” is the best word — but disagreement at the Commodore’s Messengers organization at the Cedars Complex, after that meeting you and your wife discussed the situation; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And it was after those events that you have described that you decided that you had to take
2348
a stand and had to confront them, referring to Scientologists; I believe that is from your direct testimony.A Basically, that is what occurred, yes.
Q Now, at this point in time had you actually seen — had you actually seen the first Declare?
A Yes. I had seen the first Declare.
2349
Q All right. I am looking for what exhibit number that is. We will find what exhibit number that is.
All right, and that had been given to you by Marilyn Brewer?
A Yes.
Q She had given it to you in a meeting some time before the events that you have described of this particular day?
A I had met Marilyn Brewer some time before and we had had lunch together along with my wife. Following that I drove somewhere near the building, the Cedars Complex, and Marilyn came out and brought me the paper, but it was some time following our meeting or lunch together.
Q Now after you and your wife had this discussion and you decided that you were going to take a stand, you then talked to Jim Dincalci and he suggested that you get in touch with Mr. Flynn; is that correct?
A Jim Dincalci had already been to see Mr. Flynn at that point. We had already talked about Michael Flynn. I had no inclination or intention to see Michael Flynn up until the point that the Declare came out and the photos were taken.
MR. LITT: Your Honor, I am going to move to strike. The question was not answered.
THE COURT: All right. Strike it. Read the question back and listen to the question.
2350
(Record read.)
MR. FLYNN: That was compound, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, it is sort of an attempt to recapitulate events. If the recapitulation is accurate per your testimony, you may answer the question, sir.
THE WITNESS: Okay, Your Honor. In part, that is true.
Q BY MR. LITT: And within a couple of days of these events you contacted Mr. Flynn?
A Yes.
Q And you told him who you were?
A Yes.
Q You told him you wanted to see him?
A Yes.
Q And talk with him?
A Yes.
Q And he suggested that you come down to Clearwater?
A He did not at that point suggest that I come to Clearwater.
Q All right. Did you have more than on discussion with him before you actually went to Clearwater?
A Yes.
Q What happened in the course of the first discussion? How long was the first discussion?
A It was not very long, maybe 10 minutes.
Q All right, and was Mr. Flynn in Boston at this time?
2351
A Yes.
MR. FLYNN: That is Boston, Mr. Litt.
THE COURT: Depends where you’re from.
Q BY MR. LITT: Now, Mr. Flynn indicated to you that he would get back to you or something like that or you would talk further?
A He asked if I could come out to Boston right then. I could not and it took us a couple of days to make plane arrangements, and that is what ensued over the next two or three conversations that I had either with Mr. Flynn or his brother.
Q So you called him within a couple of day of these events and it took another two or three days to work out your getting to a place where you would meet him?
A Yes.
Q And after the l0 minute telephone conversation that you first had, Mr. Flynn agreed to pay to bring you to Boston or to wherever?
A I don’t recall at what point that came up.
It could have been the first conversation. It may have been the second one.
In any case, Mr. Flynn did agree to pay my way out, at first to Boston. That didn’t work. Then because he was going to Clearwater, to Clearwater.
Q In your conversation with him you advised him of the position that you had held with the church; is that correct?
2352
A I don’t know if I went into it at any depth or not.
Q In general?
A I believe he already knew.
Q All right. So you have — we are, I guess, now in early May?
A Yes.
Q And you and Mr. Flynn have arranged that you will come to Clearwater and in Clearwater Mr. Flynn was conducting hearings, City Commission hearings; were you familiar with that?
A I knew — the first time I became familiar with it was in conversations with Mr. Flynn after I called him.
2353
I did not know of the existence of such hearings from another source.
Q All right. When you got to Clearwater you and Mr. Flynn had a meeting, I take it, at some point?
A Yes.
Q Was that shortly after you arrived?
A My recollection is it was some hours after I arrived.
Q Was it in the evening?
A Yes.
Q And how long did that meeting last, that conversation?
A I believe we had talked on and off for perhaps a couple of hours.
There were other people who kind of came and went. And Mr. Flynn had to do other things because he was involved in other activities.
So he gave me some time, but it was not like a solid meeting for two hours.
In any case, we did talk for some time the first evening.
Q Did you talk again on any other evenings?
A My recollection is that we talked briefly the next morning, I think, over breakfast.
Q And after that was when you left, or did you stay around?
A No. I left, I think, around noon that day.
Q Now, in the conversation that you had with
2354
Mr. Flynn in the evening you told Mr. Flynn all about the archives documents; is that right?
A No.
Q Did you tell him — did you advise him –
THE COURT: Are you getting into the attorney-client privilege, Counsel?
MR. LITT: I think they have waived the privilege, Your Honor.
Mr. Flynn had Mr. Armstrong testify about what, Mr. Flynn said to him after being handed this letter.
And I don’t think they can pick and choose what conversations they want to reveal.
At the same time and pace in Clearwater Mr. Flynn asked Mr. Armstrong, “And you showed me the letter?”
And he said, “Yes.”
And he said, “And what did I say?”
And he had Mr. Armstrong testify to what he said.
Now, I think under those circumstances, it is –
THE COURT: Well, he has waived to the extent he has shown him a letter and asked him what did he say.
That is the extent of it.
I won’t permit you to delve into all of these other things.
It is like — I won’t say what it is like, but by the same token, I don’t think that the mere going
2355
into that brief aspect of it waives the attorney-client privilege other than as to that aspect of it.MR. LITT: I won’t pursue it, Your Honor.
The reason we feel it does is to allow selective descriptions of it when the motivations and positions of the attorney himself is in issue, which is obviously the case here, we just felt that if they were going to go into it, it would be appropriate for us to go into the whole matter. But I won’t pursue it.
MR. FLYNN: I strongly disagree that my motives or intentions are at issue in this lawsuit. My motive is very simple.
THE COURT: Let’s not get into that. Let’s go forward.
Q BY MR. LITT: When you left Clearwater, Mr. Armstrong, did you have any arrangement to be in touch with Mr. Flynn again?
A Well, Mr. Flynn offered me support. And we didn’t have anything concrete, a time or place. But he said that I could call him any time. He gave me his home phone number; told me to call collect.
There was nothing concrete that I recall about what would be done at that time, at that point other than the fact that he would represent me and he offered support.
Q All right. Now, by the way, you — when you met with Mr. Flynn you had with you some original materials from the archives; is that right?
2356
A I had with me one original letter. I had a copy of another or maybe two other documents.
Q The one original letter was the very private letter of Mrs. Hubbard that has been discussed before in this case; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q And you showed that to Hr. Flynn; right?
A Yes.
Q And he read it and then returned it to you?
A Yes.
Q And you had another set of materials; SO-1 material; is that right, concerning Ronald De Wolfe?
A Well, a clearer adjective would be Per Sec materials.
Q Okay. These Per Sec materials, you remember yesterday we reviewed a document in which there was discussion about obtaining Per Sec — from the Per Sec No. 1 files?
A Yes.
Q And in those letters there were discussions about getting some of the materials from the Per Sec that came from the SO-1 files; is that right?
A No. Maybe I could explain the differentiation between SO-1 and Per Sec.
Q No; just answer my question.
A Okay. Then it is not correct.
Q The SO-1 material that you had was family SO-1 material; is that right?
A No.
2357
Q Okay. What material is it you showed — what was the other material that you showed Mr. Flynn?
A It was material relating to L. Ron Hubbard, Jr., Nibs or Ronald De Wolfe and who had been writing letters to him on what dates as if from L. Ron Hubbard.
Q And where did you obtain that from?
A From the Pers Sec US files. Originally?
Q Yes, originally.
A Yes.
Q The same place you got the other family SO-1 materials that you obtained for the archives?
A SO-1 was different from Pers Sec.
Q I understand that, but the family SD-1 materials got routed to Pers Sec; isn’t that right?
A You are making a distinction calling these things SO-1. They were not SO-1.
Q They were family matters. We will forget the SO-1, family correspondence that was with the Pers Sec US; right?
A Yes.
Q Where was the Pers Sec US located?
A During the time I was on the biography project, it was first of all located in Clearwater and then moved out to Los Angeles.
Q When was it moved to Los Angeles?
A 1981.
Q All right. So you showed this list to Mr. Flynn?
A Yes. I should correct that. I don’t recall
2358
showing it to Mr. Flynn. He was possibly there. I showed it to Ronald Do Wolfe.Q Ronald Do Wolfe had been estranged from his father since 1959; is that correct, as far as you knew?
A I am not too familiar with how you are using that verb there.
Q Their.relations had been bad?
A Perhaps the opposite was true.
Q Their relations had been bad since 1959; is that correct?
A I think Mr. Hubbard’s relations were bad.
Q Well in your extensive researches did you come across any materials where Mr. De Wolfe made long and extensive public statements attacking or decrying his father? Did you come across those in the course of your research?
A Yes.
Q And they covered a span of many years; isn’t that right?
A No.
Q Well, did you see any from the early ’60s?
A No.
Q Did you try to gather up any materials from the early ’60’s dealing with that?
A I had two statements by Mr. De Wolfe and I had a great deal of correspondence from Mr. De Wolfe.
The correspondence –
2359
Q Well, in your research did you do research into any of the public activity of Mr. De Wolfe with respect to his father?
A To some degree, yes.
Q Did you research the articles that he wrote and the press statements that he made?
A The only thing that I had was these two partial books, one about Mr. Hubbard and Scientology and
the last one, T believe, written in 1981 which was the four chapters that I mentioned earlier.
Q So you are not very knowledgeable at all about the relationship between Mr. Hubbard and Ronald De
Wolfe and what the reasons for that are; are you?
THE COURT: That is a very ambiguous question.
You say “not very.” He certainly has more knowledge about it than I do. He certainly has a lot more knowledge than other people. You say “not very.”
MR. LITT: We will leave that for now. We will come back to it later.
Q At any rate, you reached a conclusion about the relationship between Ronald De Wolfe and L. Ron Hubbard, but would it be a fair statement that you had not done a great deal of research into that particular relationship?
A I had accumulated perhaps two or three or four packs of documentation on the relationship.
Q Did you ever interview Mrs. Hubbard about what had happened in the 20-year history of this whole thing?
2360
interviewed?A Yes.
Q Now after having given these two materials to people in Clearwater, one showing it to Mr. Flynn and one showing it to Ronald De Wolfe — Ronald De Wolfe was there to be a witness for Mr. Flynn; did you learn that?
A Yes.
Q And hearings in which the purpose of the hearings, as you understood them, was to find a legal mechanism by which the Scientology facilities in Clearwater could be removed?
MR. FLYNN: Objection, Your Honor. Move to strike the last question. This last one calls for a legal conclusion.
MR. LITT: I am just asking for his understanding.
THE COURT: Of whose purpose?
MR. LIM Of what the purpose of the hearings was.
THE COURT: Well if you know the purpose, you can state it. If you don’t, you can so state. Don’t speculate.
THE WITNESS: The only thing I have, Your Honor, is my understanding at the time of what the purpose was.
Q BY MR. LITT: I am just asking you to answer yes or no to my characterization of the purpose. If you don’t agree with it, fine.
I had a statement by Mrs. Hubbard.
2361
A I don’t agree.
Q Now after you returned, did you talk to Omar Garrison after you returned from Clearwater?
A Yes.
Q When did you see Mr. Garrison?
A He picked me up at the airport.
Q After your return from Clearwater?
A Yes.
Q And was he in Costa Mesa at the time?
A Yes.
Q And where did you go after he picked you up at the airport? Did he take you home?
A I believe so.
Q And did you and he have a conversation at that time?
A Well we drove home and I’m sure we talked.
2362
Q Did you talk to him about your discussions with Mr. Flynn in Clearwater?
A I may have mentioned something. I really don’t we went into it at any great depth at that time.
A I had conversations with Mr. Garrison on practically a daily basis for many, many months.
Q All right. When he dropped you off did he come in with you, or did he just drop you off?
A I really don’t recall I went to my place or his place on that occasion or if I went to work or exactly even what time I arrived back from Clearwater. So I simply have no way of answering that.
Q Now, over the next few days did you have further conversations with Mr. Garrison as best you can recall?
A Yes. As I say, I saw him practically a daily basis from then until, I believe, May 31st when he left the Costa Mesa area.
Q And in the course of the following few days after your return from Clearwater you had conversations with Mr. Garrison specifically about the fact that you needed or wanted archive materials for your defense; is that right?
A I don’t know if it came up at that point at all.
My recollection is it came up around the time of the move. When we moved, Mr. Garrison, and I assisted in the move up to Utah.
We had a number of conversations around that time. And that would have been the end of the month, the beginning of June.
2363
Q Well, what archive materials did you have yourself at this time?
THE COURT: At the time he came back from Clearwater?
MR. LITT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: I had copies which I had made for Mr. Garrison. And I had some of the original documents at that time.
Q BY MR. LITT: You had copies of what?
A Prior to that in approximately March or April Mr. Garrison had begun to copy the materials which he considered were most vital to the biography project.
Q So that is what you had?
A Right.
Q And then you also had some original materials that had come from the archives?
A That is correct.
Q And these were at your apartment in Costa Mesa?
A Yes. I — the materials which I had, I was going through for Mr. Garrison to sort them out because he had not come chronologically to that point. I knew the materials better than he did. And he had asked me to go through them and sort them out.
So I did not have all of the originals with me; I had a small portion of the originals. And I did — had been going through these and pulling out some material, copying it, and giving that material to Mr. Garrison as I went along.
I couldn’t tell you right now exactly what
2364
originals I had with me in Costa Mesa.Q And in your conversations with Mr. Garrison on a daily basis, do I understand it correctly that you never talked to him about what had happened in Clearwater with you and Mr. Flynn or what you were going to be doing or anything, what had come out of it?
A At that point, as I said, it was not very clear what I was going to be doing. I was not certain myself at that point.
Out of this meeting had grown the possibility that I would — what developed at that point was the possibility of doing a — being interviewed on television. And that developed into being interviewed on 20-20.
Q When did that come up?
A That came up during — following the period after seeing Mr. Flynn in Clearwater.
Q How long afterwards?
A I couldn’t tell you. I couldn’t tell you the exact date, but within –
Q Within a few days?
A No; probably within a week or ten days after that.
Q And the contact with 20-20, that came through Mr. Flynn?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Flynn, in fact, was the person who brought you and this individual Roger Friedman from 20-20 together; is that right?
2365
A The man’s name was Gordon Friedman.
Q I am sorry. Gordon Friedman.
A He certainly played a part in it. I don’t know exactly — I never asked him about his communications to Mr. Friedman or Mr. Friedman’s communications to him.
But I had talked at some length with my wife at that point and we had arrived at a decision to be interviewed, to take that stand.
Q And did you — when did you meet Mr. Friedman?
A My — as well as I can recall, it was sometime in early June, 1982 — I’m sorry — yes, 1982.
Q Did you mean early June?
A That is what I recall. I may be off by a couple of days.
Q Was this the Bonaventure meeting?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Armstrong, it is an admitted fact in this case, if I remember right, that the Bonaventure meeting was May 26 to 28; does that refresh your recollection?
A I know that it is something that you said. And you said, and I believe I objected at the time. And you said, “Well, if I am wrong somebody will correct me.”
2366
A That was in deposition.
Q There is a request to admit in this case sent to you and your attorney in which the date of the Bonaventure meeting is set forth and is admitted that that is the date; does that refresh your recollection? Do you remember those requests to admit?
A I recall something to that effect. If I admitted to it, it was to the meeting. I honestly cannot date the day sitting here today.
Q I am not asking you whether you can personally date the day. Do you understand that when you have a request to admit, you investigate the facts, whether it is of your own knowledge or not, and you decide whether to admit those facts.
Did you consult with your attorney about this request to admit?
A I don’t know if I did or not, and I don’t have it before me to even know how I answered it.
Q Now was Mr. Garrison in Los Angeles the whole time of the month of May?
A No.
Q Did he go back to Utah at some point?
A From where?
Q Well, you said he was in Costa Mesa when he picked you up from Clearwater.
A Yes, he was.
Q So did he go back to Utah at some point in May?
Q in May?
2367
A My recollection is — it is either the 31st of May or the 1st of June, but in any case it was on the May 31st weekend that we assisted Mr. Garrison to move to Utah.
Q Now in the course of this two weeks after Clearwater, did you have further conversations with Mr. Flynn?
A My recollection is that undoubtedly I did.
Q Do you recall how many?
A No.
Q At some point did Mr. Flynn advise you that he was going to be coming to Los Angeles?
A Yes.
Q And he was going to be staying at the Bonaventure Hotel?
A Yes.
Q And he was going to be setting up a meeting of several people concerning Scientology?
MR. FLYNN: Objection.
THE COURT:You want to read the question.
(Record read.)
THE COURT: I suppose this calls for a conclusion. I will sustain the objection.
Q BY MR. LITT: Well you learned, did you not, that there was at Mr. Flynn’s hotel suite at the Bonaventure Hotel, there was going to be a meeting on the subject of Scientology?
A No.
Q Did you do anything to have either the Dincalcis
2368
or the Douglases go to meet with Mr. Flynn while he was in Los Angeles?A Yes, I arranged it.
Q And there was a meeting over a couple of days, is that right, that took place in Mr. Flynn’s Bonaventure Hotel suite?
A I can tell you what I know of that, but I think to characterize it as a meeting over a couple of days would be inaccurate.
Q Well, let’s not do that.
Did you attend some portion of a meeting?
A Yes.
2369
Q This was on a weekend?
A I don’t believe so.
Q So you remember — okay.
Did you attend on more than one day?
A Yes.
Q Two days?
A Yes.
Q And how many hours were you there for the first day, if you recall?
A Maybe three.
Q And the second day?
A It was much briefer, possibly an hour and a half.
Q Were the Douglases or the Dincalcis there on the first day when you were there?
A Yes.
Q Was this in the evening, or in the daytime?
A Evening.
Q And the next day were the Douglases or the Dincalcis there?
A I don’t believe so.
Q And at some point during this meeting was Roger — I keep saying “Roger” — Gordon Friedman from 20-20 there?
A During which day?
Q Either day?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember which day?
A He was there for a part of the first day and he was there — I saw him just for a couple of seconds on the
2370
second day.Q Was this the first time you had met Mr. Friedman?
A Yes.
Q Had you spoken with him on the phone prior to that?
A I don’t recall if I had or not. It is possible. But I could be confusing that with subsequent phone conversations.
Q All right. Now, you said that within a week or two you and your wife had decided to be interviewed by 20-20; if you hadn’t spoken with Roger Friedman bow did you know 20-20 wanted to interview you?
A Gordon Friedman?
Q Gordon Friedman.
A I didn’t know at that time. And I don’t know if the subject of 20-20 ever came up; maybe it did.
But in any case, we had decided at that point that we could not back down; that our best defense was to make a public statement. And whether or not that was going to be to the press or to 20-20, I didn’t initially know.
20-20 sort of fell into the picture. The specifics of how it happened, I couldn’t tell you.
Q And you reached this conclusion about, “going public,” after your meeting with Mr. Flynn in Clearwater?
A That is correct.
Q Now, let me go back to something else for a moment.
I think you said that after these events had
2371
occurred — going back now to the events at the CMO building — that you knew you were going to be sued; is that right?A I knew that there was a very good chance of it.
I knew at that point that that would be the — that the organization had declared me an enemy and that part of that treatment would be the suing of me.
Q And you had no idea what you were going to be sued for, but you were quite certain you would be sued; correct?
A Well, I wasn’t at that time an expert in torts or criminal law, but I thought that they would come up with something.
Q In fact, you were positive of it?
A I was pretty positive.
2372
Q All right, and that was because you knew that once you were Declared, part of what happened to people was that they would be sued; right? Isn’t that your testimony?
A Well it is not exactly that although it is a part of the Fair Game Doctrine. I think that they pick and choose from time to tune whether or not it is — whether or not they were just going to trick me or cheat one or lie or steal. In my opinion they had already done that. They had already tricked and cheated, and they lied, so that only left sue and destroy.
Q Now, how many people do you know who had been in the Church of Scientology over the years, say the three years, 1979, ‘80 and ‘81, who had been Declared?
A I don’t know.
Q A large number, a moderate number?
A During that time?
Q Yes.
A I really — I don’t know.
Q In May of 1982 who did you know who was a former member of the Church of Scientology who had been
sued by the church, by any church?
MR. FLYNN: Did he know personally or know of?
MR. LITT: First know personally.
THE WITNESS: I don’t know if he was sued, but I knew he had been harassed. That was John McLean.
Q BY MR. LITT: I am asking about sued.
A I don’t know. That I knew personally?
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Q Right.
How many people did you know of who were former members of the church, whether you knew them personally or not, who had been sued by the church in the years 1979, ‘80 and ‘81?
MR. FLYNN: That had been sued in those years?
MR. LITT: That had been sued in those years.
Q This is what you knew in May 1982.
A I don’t know any names from that period.
Q All right, now let’s go back to the Bonaventure.
At the meeting at the Bonaventure you brought some materials with you; is that right?
A Yes.
Q You brought materials that came from Omar Garrison; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q You brought a copy of what you call the Affirmations; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And you brought same Naval records; is that right?
A I believe so, yes.
Q And you brought correspondence between Mr. Hubbard’s first wife, Polly, and Mr. Hubbard?
A I don’t — I don’t know if that rings a bell or not. I don’t recall that material at that time.
Q Well what else do you recall bringing with you to this meeting?
2374
A The binder entitled “Estimate” had to do with collecting of intelligence information regarding Michael Flynn.
There was only about maybe four or five binders at the time, so that would possibly include them all.
Q And you showed these materials to Mr. Flynn at this meeting; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And you showed them to other people at the meeting; is that correct?
A My recollection is that Kima Douglas at least read some of the material, possibly Mike Douglas. Those are the ones that I remember.
Q And in the course of this meeting you had the discussion abou the contents of some of these materials; is that correct?
A Possibly some, not a lot but there may have been a few comments.
Q Do you know anybody else at the meeting who read any of the materials other than what you have said?
A Not for sure. the Dincalcis may have at that time, but I do not recall actually seeing them read any of the materials.
Q Other than the Douglases and the Dincalcis — there were other people who carne in and out of the meeting; right?
A Yes. None of those people that I saw read any of the materials.
2375
Q Where were these materials during this meeting? Were they placed somewhere?
A They were with Mr. Flynn where he was sitting, for the most part.
I do recall one or two binders in the hands of Kima Douglas and possibly Mike Douglas; although I am not certain at the time or if he just glanced at it or if he actually read through a whole binder or binders.
But those are the only people who had their hands actually on binders during those meetings that I saw.
Q Well, when you came into the meeting Mr. Flynn, I gather, greeted you at the door, or whatever?
A Okay.
Q And did you give the binders to him at that point?
A Soon after that.
Q So he was in possession of the binders in the course of the meeting and they were then,being passed around to some people who wanted to take a look at them?
A During this part of the meeting, my recollection is that there was only the — I was there; Mike and Kima Douglas were there; Jim and Nancy Dincalci were there and Michael was there during that part, at least. And I don’t think that anyone looked at any binders for some time.
Mostly the meeting was just devoted to each one of us recounting our respective stories regarding experiences with Scientology and Mr. Hubbard. That took up, at least, 90 percent of the meeting.
2376
If during that time someone looked at some of this material, it was very brief.
I don't believe even Mr. Flynn went through much of the material at that time.
Q All right. Now, you — when you left that evening you left the materials, all of these materials with Mr. Flynn; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q And did you bring him any more materials the next day?
A No.
Q Now, where had these materials been stored?
A These were materials which I had been copying from Mr. Garrison. They were his binders.
Q So you took — basically, if I understand it right, you had these in your apartment and took them to him?
A Yes.
Q Now, the next — I may have asked you this and missed your answer — did you bring more materials the next day?
A I don’t recall bringing anything else the next did, it isn’t significant.
I took everything back the next day, but I didn’t bring anything that I recall.
Q Was it your understanding, without going into the contents of the conversation, that over the evening Mr. Flynn had read these materials that you had provided him?
A I believe so, but I couldn’t really say for sure
2377
what he had done or — even if I have a recollection as to whether he was knowledgeable about them the following day. He had an opportunity to have at that point. I really can’t tell.Q And did you have further discussions with Mr. Flynn at that point before –
Was this the last time you saw him on the second day on this trip?
A I don’t follow your question.
Q Okay. We have that you met him one day and then you returned the next day for about an hour and a half; was that the only time — was that the last time that you saw him on that particular occasion?
A Yes.
Q And did you have some discussion with Mr. Flynn concerning providing him copies of materials, without asking you what was said?
A It is possible at that point. The reason I say that is because I already knew — I either had or I knew of the second declare at this point. And because I discussed the significance of that thing at that point.
Q Let me ask you a question; did Mr. Flynn — did you know where he was coming from when he went to this Bonaventure Hotel meeting?
A When you say “coming from” –
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Q Well I don’t mean psychologically.
Was he on a trip? Had he been someplace else before he came to Los Angeles?
THE COURT: Most people have.
Q BY MR. LITT: Between Boston and Los Angeles?
A Now I could be wrong about this because Mr. Flynn goes to a lot of places, but it is possible and it isn’t really significant in my mind, but it is possible that he had been in San Francisco.
Q He had been in San Francisco on a case involving an organization called Narconon; right, and he was acting on behalf of some people who were involved in litigation with Narconon?
A That is more than I know.
MR. FLYNN: Who were being sued by the church, incidentally.
Q BY MR. LITT: Now, you say you had some conversation about sending him materials and you then had a conversation — is this when you say you had your conversation with Omar Garrison about copying materials from him?
A No. I don’t know if I had a conversation at that point about sending him materials. If I had, I simply could have given him the materials I had, but I didn’t do that. I didn’t send him materials for some time after that, and I simply can’t tell you whether or not at that point I decided or was asked or anything.
I do know that I had learned from Marilyn Brewer
2379
by this point, and this was a telephone conversation –MR. LITT: Your Honor, he is not answering.
THE WITNESS: Well I am trying to date it for you.
THE COURT: Well he doesn’t want you to go through this thinking out loud, so let’s go to the next question.
Q BY MR. LITT: You had a conversation with Mr. Garrison in which you arranged with him to send these materials or get materials from him so you could send them?
A There were a number of such conversations.
They would have been at the time of the trip up to Utah and thereafter.
Q So you think on your trip up to Utah, this is the trip at the end of the month or thereabouts?
A Yes.
Q You had a conversation with Mr. Garrison and, in fact, when you got to Utah, you went through some materials and picked out some things that you wanted; is that right?
A My recollection is that he gave me materials at that time.
Q That you asked for?
A Probably that I asked for.
Q And how long were you in Utah?
A Just a day or two.
Q How much time did you spend going through the materials that Mr. Garrison had looking for what you wanted on that occasion?
2380
A Couple of minutes, if that. I think that I — it was not significant how I obtained them at that point. I think he had some binders and I either asked him or he volunteered, but in any case I did bring back some material at that time from Utah.
Q And did you make arrangements with Mr. Garrison that you could have free access to the materials that he had?
A I don’t know if those exact words were discussed at that time, but either then or in subsequent conversations he said that I could have whatever I needed.
Q For your case; right?
A Yes.
Q That is what you told him it was for?
A Again I did not know what form this thing was going to take. He did not know. He said I could use whatever I needed as long as it was kept in the legal arena.
MR. LITT: Move to strike as nonresponsive, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, he was explaining his answer; denied.
Q BY MR. LITT: Now, when you got back from Utah, was there some mail in your post office box?
A Well, either — there was something from Marilyn Brewer either then or I had already gotten it, I don’t recall which, but I, certainly did receive the Declare, the second Declare from Marilyn Brewer.
2381
I had spoken to her twice prior to that period so it was either prior to leaving or subsequent, you know, to my return on June 1st or 2nd, something like that.
THE COURT: Was she at that time within the organization?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Q BY MR. LITT: Did you have any other mail that you recall?
A No, I don’t recall.
Q Didn’t you get in your post office box this notice from Mr. Peterson at some point?
A Are you referring to the one which was pushed inside my shirt?
A No; didn’t you get one — aside from being delivered to you personally, wasn’t there also one that you got in the mail?
A It is possible that I got one or I got them both at the same time. But there only is the one letter, not as Mr. Peterson has said, that I got two letters at that point. I only got the one which appears to refer to an earlier letter which I never saw until it showed up in a deposition somewhere.
Q All right. Now, Mr. Armstrong, I’m showing you here a set of requests to admit; this is from the request for admission set No. 3.
Do you see request No. 57 says, “On or about May 26 to 28, 1982 at the Hotel Bonaventure in Los Angeles, California, Gerald Armstrong personally delivered to
2382
Michael J. Flynn about 4,000 copies of original materials which had been contained in the Archives project when Armstrong was in charge of said project”; do you remember seeing that when that was asked of you?A Do you remember answering that request to admit “admitted”?
A Boy, my recollection — you know, there is possibly three errors in there. And I would have noted –
I know I noted the 4,000 copies. That was not correct. I changed it to approximately — my recollection is — 1,000. And — I don’t know, copies of original materials.
So I picked out the one error that I knew of and if I slipped up on the May 26 to 28 and it wasn’t that, then that was my error.
THE COURT: The question was “on or about.”
Q BY MR. LITT: Now, do you recall — I’ll find it and we can discuss it after the break. The only change you made in that was 1,000 copies; you changed it to 1,000; is that right?
A There is a further explanation.
I said, “Denied in part.”
Q Yes.
A So it was not an admission.
Q We’ll go through the rest of it.
THE COURT: Is it important, counsel?
We know there was a meeting.
MR. FLYNN: We’ll stipulate to the meeting, Your Honor.
MR. HARRIS: I think you’ll find, Your Honor, that it
2383
is quite important.THE COURT: If it is, fine.
Q BY MR. LITT: And in two other requests to admit, the same date is used; is that correct?
A They say “on or about.”
Q They say “on or about.”
A Oh, okay. So on or about.
Q Well, when it says, “on or about May 26 to 28,” do you consider that that could mean potentially June? Is that how you understood the question?
A Well, it is kind of this way: we are talking about an incident which occurred two years ago. And when I read that I did not attach a great deal of significance to the date. You have attached some significance; so I would want to, perhaps, confirm it.
On or about to me means that, in that you had given already a two-day, three-day span, perhaps it exceeds that; it is like when I met Mr. Flynn, I could say it was on or about May 4, 1982. But I really could be off by three or four days.
Q Now, Mr. Armstrong, you completed a declaration in this case on September 16, 1982; is that correct?
A Did I sign it that date?
2384
Q It is signed that date?
A Yes.
Q Do you recognize this declaration? It was for use in this case; is that right?
A Okay.
Q Do you recall it?
A Yes.
Q This is your signature on the last page of it?
A Okay.
Q Now you see here you say in this particular declaration that on May 29th, this is paragraph 45 of the declaration.
“On May 29 my wife and I assisted” — May 29, 1982 — “assisted the Garrisons in moving from their Costa Mesa residence to Utah.”
All right?
A Okay.
Q Does that refresh your recollection?
A Of the date that we moved?
Q Of the date — yes.
A Okay.
Q So that is the date that you went to Utah; is that right?
A Yes.
Q Now, that in fact came right after your meeting at the Bonaventure Hotel; isn’t that right?
A It may be.
2385
Q In fact what happened was you had your two days of meetings at the Bonaventure Hotel and then you and the Garrisons went to Utah; correct?
A That –
Q Isn’t that what happened?
A It could be.
Q And in Utah and in your drive to Utah is when you made these arrangements with Garrison; isn’t that correct, about the materials?
A As I have said, I made at least some arrangement with Mr. Garrison. It continued throughout the next several months, so when you say “These arrangements with Mr. Garrison” –
Q Arrangements for the materials, for you to use the materials.
A Around that date, perhaps up in Utah, he gave me permission.
Q Okay. Now, then, at paragraph 52 it says: “When my wife and I returned from Utah on May 31, 1982, I found a letter from an attorney John Peterson in my postal box.”
A Okay.
Q You see that?
“This letter dated 27 May, 1982 did not identify who he was retained by.” Et cetera.
This was the letter that was sent to you that’s already been testified to by Mr. Peterson demanding that any archive materials be returned; is that right?
A Okay.
2386
Q Correct?
A The which one?
Q The letter that you received on May 31 that was dated May 27.
A Okay.
Q All right, so –
A I am not sure of the substance of that letter at this point.
Q Well leaving aside the substance.
A Go ahead.
Q So that is correct? That is what happened; right?
A Yes.
Q And you went to your postal box right after your return from Utah. This was your first trip to the post office box?
A After return?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q Now in paragraph 53 you then say: “Also, on May 31, 1982 I received a telephone call from Marilyn Brower who said that there was another Suppressive Person Declare an me, this time linking me with drugs and claiming I had stolen documents from the organization and was selling them.”
Do you remember that?
A Yes.
Q So it was on May 31, 1982 that you learned
2387
of this Declare from Marilyn Brewer; isn’t that right, Mr. Armstrong?A My recollection is that I had at least two telephone conversations with Miss Brewer.
Q Isn’t this the date that you learned of this Declare?
MR. FLYNN: Objection, Your Honor. It is argumentative.
THE COURT: Sustained. You don’t need to use that tone of voice, Counsel.
MR. LITT: Okay.
Q Mr. Armstrong, isn’t the first time that you learned of the existence of the second Declare on
May 31st, 1982?
MR. FLYNN: Objection, Your Honor. It has been asked and answered and argumentative.
THE WITNESS: My –
THE COURT: Well, let the answer stand; overruled.
THE WITNESS: My recollection is.that I had two conversations with Marilyn Brewer. The second conversation, or maybe there was even a third because there was a delay in getting the document and I called her a subsequent time. My recollection is that I learned from her at one point the existence of the thing: I called her a second time and during the second conversation she went over in some detail, in fact, quoted from it.
2388
But I knew of the gist of it sometime prior to that. It took approximately a week to get the documents from Miss Brewer.
Q BY MR. LITT: Let me ask you a question: is there any mention in this declaration of yours of the date which you learned of the second declare other than this paragraph?
A I don’t believe that there is.
Q And this declaration was completed on September 16, 1982; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And that was approximately three months from the time that the event occurred; is that correct?
A I’m sorry.
Q It was approximately three months from the events of May when you completed this declaration; is that right?
A Yes.
Q And it is your testimony that you had an earlier conversation than May 31st?
THE COURT: He has already told us about it, counsel; there is no need to repeat it.
MR. LITT: All right.
Q Up until the time that Marilyn Brewer advised you of this second declare, you didn’t know anything about it; is that right?
A I first learned of it from her, yes.
I should say at this point I knew — Virgil Wilhite had told me; I did not know which declare he was referring to at the time.
2389
Q In fact, you thought he was referring to the first declare?
A That is correct. He may not have been.
Q But what you knew –
A All I knew was the existence, until Marilyn called me, of the first declare.
MR. LITT: Your Honor, I’m going to move into a different area now.
Do you want to take a break now, or do you want to start the new area? It is fine with me either way. It involves the documents. And so we might –
THE COURT: We’ll move to a new area. I’ll take a recess, 15 minutes.
Give the clerk what exhibits you want.
Are these going into unmarked exhibits?
MR. HARRIS: Sealed exhibits, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Recess.)
2390
THE COURT: All right, in the case on trial let the record reflect that counsel are present.
The witness has retaken the stand. Just state your name again for the record, sir. You are still under oath.
THE WITNESS: Gerald Armstrong.
THE COURT: You may continue, Mr. Litt.
MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.
MR. HARRIS: While he is doing this, may I be excused?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. LITT: Those are sealed. You will have to leave those in here.
MR. FLYNN: You will get sued for that, Mr. Harris.
MR. HARRIS: I thought those were copies. I will get myself back and not be excused.
THE COURT: You are free to go or come as you want, sir.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you.
MR. LITT: Your Honor, what we are trying to do at this point is have Mr. Armstrong look at a series of documents that are under seal, and so I want to discuss the marking procedure.
THE COURT: Well, we will follow the same procedure that we did. They will be marked as part of exhibit 500. However, instead of they being defense exhibits, they will be plaintiff’s exhibits 500-1 or 500-2 or something of that nature.
MR. LITT: All right. Do you want me to mark on
2391
them?THE CLERK: They already have markings on them.
MR. LITT: They have the numbers on them. I will follow that same number.
THE COURT: Yes, fine.
Q BY MR. LITT: Mr. Armstrong, showing you a document that has at the top in the right-hand corner 1
circled with the initials MF, this is a letter dated l1 July, ‘66; do you recognize this document?
A Not specifically, but I recognize the handwriting and I recognize that it is a letter from Mr. Hubbard to Mary Sue Hubbard.
2392
Q Do you know where this letter was written from? Do you know where Mr. Hubbard was when he wrote this letter?
A Without looking at the envelope on the back?
Q Yes; do you know where he was at this period of time?
A At that time?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q And is this one of the documents that you provided to Mr. Flynn?
A I assume so. It is indicated that it was sent to Mr. Flynn. I cannot recall that specific document, but, yes.
Q And did you send him this letter from L. Ron Hubbard to Mary Sue Hubbard as part of your defense in this case, or — strike “in this case” — as part of your defense?
A Yes, along with all the other Mary Sue, Mr. Hubbard letters.
Q All right.
Your Honor, I’ll pass these to you as I question on them.
THE COURT: All right.
Q BY MR. LITT: That will 500-l.
THE COURT: Yes.
Q BY MR. LITT: The next document I have, Mr. Armstrong, has at the top at the right-hand corner a 2 circled with the words “MF” on it. And it is a document
2393
entitled “Constitution.”Do you recognize this document?
A Yes.
MR. LITT: This will be marked 500-2.
Q Is this a document that you recognized as being under seal?
A Yes.
Q And did you send this to Mr. Flynn?
A Yes.
Q And this document is a tentative constitution of the Nation of Rhodesia; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And it is approximately four pages long; is that right?
A Yes.
Q And it basically discusses a proposed constitution, I gather, written by Mr. Hubbard for the nation of Rhodesia?
A Yes.
Q And do you send this to Mr. Flynn for your defense?
A Along with all the documents under seal, I sent them to either Mr. Flynn or the Bunch people in my defense.
Q Do you know when this document was written?
A It would have been possibly 1966.
Q Possibly? You are not sure?
A No.
Q Were there other Rhodesia-related materials that you also sent to Mr. Flynn?
2394
A Yes.
Q The next document has at the top a 3 circled with the initials “MF” next to them.
That will be 500-3.
This is a document dated the 5th of May, 1966; do you recognize this document?
A Yes.
Q Did you send it to Mr. Flynn?
A Yes.
Q By the way, let me go back for a moment.
The first document which was a letter from Mr. Hubbard to Mrs. Hubbard of July 1l, 1966, do you recall
when you sent that to Mr. Flynn?
A It would have been between June and August, 1982.
Q Is that all you recall?
A Yes. I don’t recall the exact date for any of these materials.
Q You made several different mailings; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall at all what materials went with what mailings?
A My best recollection at this time is that the initial materials that I sent to Mr. Flynn contained the — there were Naval records; there were the estimates regarding Mr. Flynn; there may have been the affirmations and then all the other material followed after that.
2395
But at this point I really am not certain what order I sent it in or what documents were included in what group of materials.
2396
Q And this letter of May 6, 1966 is a letter addressed to Mr. Hubbard from an individual named L.R. Thompson, the principal private secretary to the prime minister of Rhodesia?
A Yes.
Q And did you send this document to Mr. Flynn as part of your defense?
A I sent all the documents to Mr. Flynn or Contos & Bunch as part of the defense, yes.
Q Now, the next document is dated January 3rd, 1966, and has at the top a 4 circled with the initials MF next to them. It will be 500-4.
Do you recognize this document?
A Yes.
Q We are just on this at the moment.
A I just want to make sure that day is correct, 3 January, 66 and that it is not ‘67.
In any case, go ahead.
Q You think this was actually written in 1967?
A Well I knew that Mr. Hubbard often did around the 1st of the year for several days he would write the prior year. So it could be ‘67. We could date it along with the other materials from that period and see whether or not in the days prior and subsequent to 3 January, ‘66 if Mr. Hubbard was in Morocco.
Q This is written on hotel stationary from Tangier; is that right?
A Yes.
2397
Q And do you recognize this document as being a letter from Mr. Hubbard to Mrs. Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q The address here is the term that Mr. Hubbard generally used in his letters to Mrs. Hubbard?
A Often, yes.
Q Do you know anybody else who addresses Mrs. Hubbard in that way?
A I don’t know.
Q And also the way that the letter is signed is the typical way that Mr. Hubbard signs his letters
to Mrs. Hubbard?
A Often.
Q Did yon ever see him sign letters to anybody else that way?
A No.
Q And did you send this letter to Mr. Flynn as part of your defense?
A Along with all the materials, yes.
Q the next document which has a 5 circled at the top and initials MP next to them, and which will be designated 500-5 is a letter of 8 January,’67; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And do you recognize the handwriting on this document?
A Yes.
Q And you recognise the document itself?
2398
A Yes.
Q And you sent this document to Mr. Flynn?
A Yes. I don’t recall the specific one. I sent all the letters that I had to Mr. Flynn.
Q You sent all the letters that Mr. Hubbard had written Mrs. Hubbard that you had?
A I had in any possession all of the copies of all of the correspondence from certain periods. I sent all of those copies which I had in my possession. They were copies of copies which Mr. Garrison had made. I did not prior to sending those bulk copies go through each one and make a physical or mental note of specifically what they were, but I sent them all.
Q And you sent this particular letter as part of your defense?
A Yes.
Q And this letter has the same unique both address and signature that Mr. Hubbard used in letters to Mrs. Hubbard that we discussed with respect to the previous letter?
A Yes.
Q The next document is a document that has at the top the circle 6 and the initials MF; do you see that?
A Yes.
Q That will be designated 500-6. This has a date on it of 25 January, ‘67; is that right?
A Yes.
2399
Q Do you recognize this document?
A Only that it is a letter from Mr. Hubbard to Mrs. Hubbard.
Q And you recognize the handwriting?
A Yes.
Q And this document has the same way of addressing Mrs. Hubbard and the same ending that the other document — other letters we discussed have?
A Yes.
2400
Q And do you know when you sent this to Mr. Flynn?
A The same time that I sent all the letters to Mr. Flynn.
Q And you sent this as part of your defense?
A Yes.
MR. FLYNN: If it will help, Mr. Litt, we’ll stipulate that all of these letters were sent as part of the defense, the whole two-foot stack of them.
MR. LITT: No. It won’t help. Thank you, Mr. Flynn.
Q The next document is a document with the No. 7 at the top; that will be designated 500-7. It has the initials “MF” on it.
This is another letter from Mr. Hubbard to Mrs. Hubbard; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And this is a several page letter, about six or seven pages?
A Seven and an envelope, yes.
Q And did you send this document to Mr. Flynn?
A Yes.
Q And you sent it as part of your defense?
A Yes; all of them.
Q The next document is a letter of February 3rd, 1967; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And it has at the top the number circled 8 with the initials “MF”; and that will be 500-8.
Do you recognize this document?
2401
A As I have said before, yes.
Q And this is a document that you sent to Mr. Flynn?
A Yes.
Q And it is a letter from Mr. Hubbard to Mrs. Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q And it has the same way of addressing Mrs. Hubbard and signing the letter that is unique to Mr. Hubbard’s letters to Mrs. Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q And you sent this as part of your defense?
A Yes.
Q This is a letter that has at the top a 9 circled and the initials “MF” and it will be 500-9.
This is on the same Tangiers stationery that the previous letter that had Tangiers stationery was on; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q It is dated 11 February, 1967; correct?
A Yes.
Q And it is is addressed “Dear Arthur”?
A Yes.
Q And this is a short printed document; is that right?
A Yes.
Q Which is unusual for Mr. Hubbard; most of the materials you have of his are handwritten; is that correct?
A Okay.
2402
Q And who is Arthur?
A That was the Arthur Hubbard.
Q Arthur Hubbard, being a relation to L. Ron Hubbard?
A Yes, his son.
Q His son with Mary Sue Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q And in February 1957 how old was Arthur Hubbard?
A He was very young.
Q Under 10?
A Probably, yes.
Q And the letter ends off saying, “I miss you. Love, Daddy.”
Do you see that?
A Yes.
Q Did you send that to Mr. Flynn as part of your defense?
A I sent all of them to Mr. Flynn as part of my defense, yes.
Q The next document has a 10 circled at the top with the initials MF and it is dated 9 January, 1968, and it is a letter to Mary Sue Hubbard; is that right?
A Yes.
Q And it is from L. Ron Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q And you sent this to Mr. Flynn?
A Yes.
Q And you sent this as part of your defense?
2403
A Yes.
Q The next document has a 14 circled at the top, and it has the initials MF.
Do you recognize what that is?
A This is a letter to Mr. Hubbard from his father, Harry Hubbard.
Q And this letter, as far as you know, was written on 20 February, 1938?
A Yes.
Q And you sent this to Mr. Flynn?
A Yes.
Q And you sent this to Mr. Flynn as part of your defense?
A My recollection is that there was a complete — there vets several binders of these materials similar to the Mary Sue Hubbard letters, all of which I sent to Mr. Flynn.
MR. LITT: This is 500-14.
THE COURT: All right.
Q BY MR. LITT: The next document has a 15 circled at the top with the initials MF, and it has “Birthday greetings” at the top; do you recognize that document?
A Yes.
Q And what is it?
A It is a telegram from his mother and Midge.
Q Who was Midge?
A She was an aunt.
Q And do you know when this was sent?
2404
A It would have been in the ’30’s.
Q There is a time stamp on the back that says “March l4, 1938? ; is that your recollection of when it –
A I don’t recall the date, but this would have been the way I would have assembled it when I put together the copies for Mr. Garrison, so this would have been my work and that mould be mine.
Q And you sent this to Mr. Flynn as part of your defense?
A All of it.
Q The next document bas the number 16 at the top and will be 500-16; do you recognize that document?
A Yes.
Q And what is that?
A That is a letter to L. Ron Hubbard from his mother.
Q And do you know what period of time this is from?
A Be in the ’30’s.
Q And you sent this to Hr. Flynn?
A Yes.
Q And you sent this to Mr. Flynn as part of your defense?
A Yes.
MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, if I could make a suggestion.
2405
Rather than reiterate those three questions on every document, we could stipulate to the three questions and he could put the document in front of the witness and I will stipulate that the question would be the same for each.
THE COURT: Well it would move things along, Mr. Litt.
Deem that that is his testimony and then if you want to have him identify it –
2405a
MR. LITT: That is fine, Your Honor.
Are we stipulating that whatever initials are in the upper right-hand corner indicates that it was — if t says “MF,” that it was sent to Michael Flynn and if it says — I guess it is CB. I don’t know if there are any such in here — that it was sent to Contos and Bunch.
MR. FLYNN: So stipulated.
Q BY MR. LITT: Mr. Armstrong, what is this document? Do you recognize it?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell me what it is?
A This is a letter to Mr. Hubbard and his first wife, Louise Polly Hubbard. And it is from his mother.
Q It is addressed to both L. Ron Hubbard and his first wife?
A Yes.
Q And the address here that says “Dearest Polly,” Polly was a nickname for Louise Grubb Hubbard?
A Yes.
MR. LITT: That will be 500-17, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Q BY MR. LITT: The next document has an 18 at the top and the initials “MF”; this will be 500-18.
Do you recognize this document?
A I recognize each one of these documents that are letters only as part of an overall group of letters. I do not recognize them specifically and individually unless I were to read them through in some depth. But everything I
2406
have seen so far, I recognize as being part of groups of letters that I sent to Mr. Flynn.Q What is this letter?
A This is a letter from Harry Hubbard to L. Ron Hubbard.
Q And when was this letter sent?
A It is dated May 16, 1943.
Q That is the period you believe it is from?
A Yes.
Q And the next document has 22 at the top and the initials “MF”; what is that?
A It is a letter from Mr. Hubbard to his mother.
Q And what is the date of it?
A April 14, 1955.
Q This is in Mr. Hubbard’s handwriting?
A Yes.
MR. LITT: This will be 500-22.
THE COURT: Very well.
Q BY MR. LITT: The next document has a 23 at the top and the initals “MF”; have you had a chance to review this document?
A No.
Q Do you recognize it?
A As being part of the documents which I sent to Mr. Flynn, yes.
Q What is it?
A It is a letter from Harry Hubbard to Mr. Hubbard and Mary Sue Hubbard.
2407
Q Where it says “Dear Ron and Sue,” Sue refers to Mary Sue Hubbard?
A That is correct.
Q When was this letter written?
A The date on it is December 29, 1957.
Q That is when you believe it was written?
A Yes.
MR. LITT: This will be 500-23, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Very well.
Q BY MR. LITT: The next document has a circled 24 at the top and the initials “MF”; do you recognize this document?
A As from before, part of the materials which I sent to Mr. Flynn.
Q And what is this document?
A It is a letter from Harry Hubbard to L. Ron Hubbard.
Q And when was it written?
A September 13, 1958.
Q And so far as you can determine, is that when it was written?
A Yes.
MR. LITT: That will be 500-24, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
Q BY MR. LITT: The next document has a circled 25 at the top and the initials “MF” and is dated September 18, 1958.
Do you recognize this document?
2408
A Not specifically, but it was among the letters between Mr. Hubbard and his parents.
Q Well, who is this letter to and from?
A It was to Hr. Hubbard from his mother.
Q And it is a one-page document?
A Yes.
MR. LITT: That will be 500-25, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Q BY MR. LITT: The next document has a 26 circled at the top and the initials “MF”; do you recognize this document?
A Yes.
Q And what is it?
A It is a letter to L. Ron Hubbard and Mary Sue Hubbard from Harry Hubbard.
Q It is a letter from L. Ron hubbard’s father to L. Ron and Mary Sue Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q This was written when?
A September 21, 1958.
MR. LITT: This will be 500-26, Your Honor.
2409
Q The next document has been circled 27 at the top and the initials MF.
Can we just agree that when I read the initials, that will be the number and I don’t have to say that will be 500?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. FLYNN: Fine.
Q BY MR. LITT: Do you recognize this document?
MR. FLYNN: We can probably agree, Mr. Litt, on the entire line of inquiry if your intent is –
MR. LITT: No, I would like him to identify what the documents are.
THE WITNESS: I cannot identify it specifically, but I can tell you that it is among the letters or papers of letters between Mr. Hubbard and his parents which I had, copies of which I provided to Mr. Flynn.
Q And this letter is addressed to whom?
A To L. Ron Hubbard and Mary Sue Hubbard.
Q And it is from?
A I guess both of the — it says “Mom and Dad.” It would be Harry Hubbard and Ledora Mae Hubbard. It is only signed by “Dad.”
Q And this was part of a large binder — did you send Mr. Flynn a binder of letters between Mr. Hubbard and his parents?
A My recollection is that Mr. Garrison had binders of these letters. I copied them and I sent the copies finally to Mr. Flynn. I don’t believe they were
2410
in groups.Q And among some of those were also letters to Mary Sue Hubbard; correct, from Mr. Hubbard’s parents?
A Yes.
Q The next document has the circled 29 at the top and the initials MF; what is this letter?
A This is a letter from, copy of a letter from L. Ron Hubbard to his first wife, Polly.
Q And when was it written?
A It is dated May 10, 1938.
Q And was Polly sometimes referred to by Mr. Hubbard as Skipper?
A Yes.
Q Do you recognize this document?
A Yes.
Q And what is it?
A It is a letter from Mr. Hubbard.
Q I better say — this document has the number 34 circled at the top and the initials MF; what is it?
A It is a letter from Mr. Hubbard to his first wife.
Q And that is referring to Polly or Louise Grubb Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q The next document has a 31 circled at the top and the initials MF; do you recognize this document?
2411
A Yes.
Q And what is it?
A It is a letter from Mr. Hubbard to his first wife.
Q And it similarly is addressed to Skipper?
A Yes.
Q Referring to Louise Grubb Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q The next letter — did I ask you when that letter was written, by the way, the last one?
A If not, it was written December 30, 1939.
Q That is referring to 500-31.
The next letter has a 32 circled on it and the initials MF; do you recognize this letter?
A Yes.
Q And what is it?
A It is a letter from Mr. Hubbard to his first wife.
Q And there is no date on it.
Do you know when it would be from?
A Some time prior to Christmas 1939.
Q The next document has a 33 circled at the top and the initials MF; do you recognize this letter?
A Yes.
Q What is it?
A It is a letter from Mr. Hubbard to his first wife.
Q And what period is it from?
2412
A 1940.
Q Now this letter, and I believe at least some of the other letters between Mr. Hubbard and his first wife, have a signature referring to “Red head.’
Is that a reference to Mr. Hubbard?
A Yes.
2413
Q The next letter has a 34 at the top with the initials “MF”; do you recognize this letter?
A Yes.
Q What is it?
A It is a letter from Mr. Hubbard to his first wife.
Q And what is the date of it?
A It is dated July 9, 1934.
Q The next letter or document has the No. 40 at the top and the initials ‘MF”; do you recognize it?
A Yes.
Q What is it?
A It is a letter from Polly to Mr. Hubbard.
Q And it is in her handwriting?
A Yes.
Q And what period of time is it from?
A I’m not able to, at a quick glance, date it.
I had it dated at one time, but I don’t — I can’t tell just from this.
My guess is it is in the late ’30’s.
Q The next letter has a 41 at the top and the initials “MF”; do you recognize this letter?
A Yes.
Q What is it?
A It is a letter to Mr. Hubbard from his first wife.
Q And is it signed “Skipper”?
A Yes.
2414
Q Do you know if Mr. Hubbard sometimes referrred to himself as “Skipper” and sometimes Polly as ‘Skipper”?
A I don’t recall. He called himself “Captain” every once in a while or “Commodore”.
Q But this is from Mr. Hubbard to Polly, not from Polly to Mr. Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q The next document has a 42 circled at the top and the initials “MF”; do you recognize that?
A Yes.
Q And what is it?
A It is a letter from Mr. Hubbard to Mrs. Hubbard.
Q Do you know when it was written?
A I would have to go through it in some depth to figure it out.
Q Can you tell roughly when it was written?
MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, may we read some of these after the Court is done with them?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: It looks like it would be in the possible ’30’s.
Q BY MR. LITT: The next document has a 43 at the top and the initials “MF”; that prior document, in case I didn’t indicate it, I believe, is 42.
Is that correct, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
2415
Q BY MR. LITT: Do you recognize this letter?
A Yes.
Q What is it?
A It is a letter to Mr. Hubbard from his first wife.
Q And what period of time is it from?
A It would be in the same period, the ’30’s, maybe the beginning of the ’40’s. But I think it is the ’30’s.
2416
Q The next document has a 44 circled at the top and the initials MF; do you recognize it?
A Yes.
Q And what is it?
A It is a letter to Mr. Hubbard’s first wife.
Q Do you know what period of time it is from?
A Probably the same.
Q The ’30’s?
A Yes.
Q The next document has 45 at the top and the initials MF; do you recognize it?
A Yes.
Q What is it?
A It is a letter to Mr. Hubbard from his first wife.
Q And do you know what period of time it is from?
A It looks like it is in the ’40’s.
Q The next document has a 46 at the top and the initials MF; do you recognize it?
A Yes.
Q And what is it?
A A letter to Mr. Hubbard from his first wife, Polly.
Q And do you know when it was written?
A It would be in the ’40’s, probably ‘43.
Q And the document has a 47 at the top and the initials MF; do you recognize it?
2417
A Yes.
Q And what is it?
A It is a letter to Mr. Hubbard from his first wife Polly.
Q And do you know when it is from?
A It looks like from the same period, probably ‘43.
Q Okay. All right, the next document is a set of materials that are collectively designated 51 with the initials C and B. Inside it there are several items. The first item says “Funeral Oration for Peggy Conway,” Do you know what that is?
A That is a handwritten document by Mr. Hubbard.
Q And this is a funeral oration that he wrote for a Scientologist who had died?
A Appears to be that, yes.
Q What file was this in?
A Probably in the file entitled “Deceased Scientologists.”
Q And the next document is from 13 September, ‘64 addressed “Fred,” Is that in Mr. Hubbard’s handwriting?
A Yes.
Q Is this an original?
Yes.
Q And the first one we were discussing, the funeral oration, is an original?
A Yes.
Q Was this funeral oration from the same period
2418
as the letter, 1964, or are they from different time periods?A I can’t tell. That one isn’t dated although it possibly is from earlier.
Q And then there are two other documents in this set. Another handwritten document addressed “Dear Virginia”; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And that document makes reference to Mary Sue Hubbard in this letter that Mr. Hubbard wrote to someone?
A Yes.
Q And then there is one other document which is handwritten, I mean, typed with some handwriting on it, and it looks like a carbon. Actually they all look like carbons; is that right?
A This is a carbon and then there is a handwritten one at the end.
Q Is the handwritten one at the end.
Q Is the handwritten one a carbon; can you tell?
A No it is an original.
Q The next document has at the top the number 52 and the initials C B; do you recognize the documents in here?
A Yes.
Q Are these letters written by Mr. Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q And who are they addressed to?
A To A.E. Van Vogt.
2419
Q And who was A.E. Van Vogt?
A He is a science fiction writer and he is an early Dianeticist.
Q And where did these materials come from originally?
A Either Controller archives or from Pers Sec WW files. I can’t tell at this point.
Q Do you know the circumstances under which the originals of these letters were — had been obtained back from Mr. Van Vogt?
A No. Mr. Hubbard’s practice was he would handwrite these things and then they would be typed up.
The typed copies exist somewhere within the organization.
2420
Q The next document has a 54 at the top and the initials “MF”; do you recognize it?
A I think the first time I saw this was under seal. But I did see it under seal.
Q You don’t remember ever having seen it before?
A No.
Q The next document has — it is an envelope with the No. 55 at the top and the initials “MF”; it has inside it some kind of a yacht contract, I guess.
Do you recognize this document?
A No.
Q Does the handwriting on the outside of the envelope — do you know whose handwriting that is?
A As a guess, it is Irene Thrupp.
Q So you think this came from Pers Sec files at Worldwide?
A It may have ended up in the Controller archives.
Q The next document has a 56 at the top and the initials “MF”; do you recognize this document?
A No.
Q By the way, now, do — some of the documents we have looked at have red writing with a stapled small, you know, just portion of paper, apparently, some form of identification; who would have done that? Do you know?
A Possibly Irene Thrupp or possibly Ann Gregg.
Q The next set of documents is No. 57 with the initials “MF”; it is a series of materials; the first of them is a sealed document which I’ll not unseal which says,
2421
“Key to Dr. Hubbard’s bedroom desk”; right?A Yes.
Q And it appears to have a key inside of it?
A Yes.
Q And the next is what appears to be an original will; whose will is this?
A The will of Mr. Hubbard.
Q And this is from what period?
A It says 1959.
Q Then there is another document which appears to be a handwritten will; is that correct? It appears to be a copy of a handwritten will?
A Yes.
2422
Q And this appears to be in the period of late 1960 from the date on it, 26 December, 1960?
A Yes.
Q And then the next item in here is a short note from someone named Peter to Ron?
A Yes.
Q And it seems to be written in October ‘67; is that right?
A It looks like ‘62.
Q And this says:
“This is the only copy of the Johannesburg will” — referring to this handwritten will — “unless Mary Sue has the original.”
Right?
A That is what it says, yes.
Q And then there is a document that is dated 19 October talking about LRH birth certificates?
A Yes.
Q That is written in Mr. Hubbard’s hand?
A Yes.
Q And then there is a document that has noted on the outside, “Codicil to Dr. Hubbard’s will, January 18, 1960.”
A Yes.
Q The next document is a document entitled –
THE COURT: Pardon me a moment, Counsel. Maybe you mentioned it somewhere, but I don’t see any number on this.
2423
MR. LITT: It is outside on the folder.
THE COURT: Oh, I see, it says 57 MF. Okay. It is very softly written.
Q BY MR. LITT: The next document has the number 58 at the top and the initials MF. This is a short thing that appears to be written to my untrained eye in Mr. Hubbard’s hand; is that right?
A Yes.
Q And it says something about unpublished.
This is then original draft of “Excaliber” written in 1938?
A Yes.
Q “The first exploratory manuscript on the mind by LRH”?
A Yes.
Q It says, “Not to be published”?
A Yes.
Q Now did you have a copy of “Excalibur” itself?
A During which time period?
Q During the time from — from after you left the church.
A Mr. Garrison, my recollection is, had three versions. He was going to quote out of one of them rather extensively.
I made a copy of that manuscript for him and I had it up to the point I believe I sent it to MF, indicated by this. I am not positive that I did it.
It was not significant, but in that this came from MF, it is possible that it is with the complete manuscript
2424
or one of three manuscripts.Q So you sent Mr. Flynn one of three original — a copy of one version of the three versions of the original; is that right? I am simply trying –
A There were three separate versions. My bast recollection is that I sent Mr. Flynn a copy of a carbon copy of the manuscript, and it would be a second or third generation copy taken from one of the copies that Mr. Garrison had.
Q Okay. How long is that manuscript?
A Probably three or four hundred pages.
Q And does it have a certain — is it considered something of a mystery within Scientology as Mr. Hubbard’s first writing on the subject of the mind which has never been published?
A Well what he stated about that was that seven people originally read it and couple of them jumped out of windows and another two went insane.
Q Mr. Armstrong –
A So that –
MR. LITT: Could you ask the witness to answer my question?
THE COURT: Well, I guess –
MR. FLYNN: The question –
THE COURT: Well, it sounds interesting. Let’s hear it. Go ahead.
2425
THE WITNESS: and that story about the people who went insane and the couple that jumped out of th window in itself created somewhat of a mystery. That is the mystery.
THE COURT: Why they jumped out, or what is in the book?
THE WITNESS: Right. What is in the book that is so powerful that caused this insanity and caused the suicides.
Q BY MR. LITT: It remains unpublished so far as you are aware?
A Yes.
I should say about that, however, that Mr. Hubbard had stated that almost all of it has not [should be "now"] been published in Dianetics and Scientology materials.
Q In one form or another?
A Something to that effect, yes.
Q The next set of documents, really, has the marking “CB” on it; the first thing on here is something that appears to be from Sarah Hubbard, just an envelope from Sarah Hubbard to L. Ron Hubbard; correct?
A Yes.
Q And then the next thing is “Suzy from her playmate”; do you know what that refers to?
A It appears to be a tag of some sort from Mr. Hubbard.
Q And then the next one is a document dated June 26, 1954 that has the name at the top left “Mrs. H. H. Whip” addressed to Mrs. L. R. Hubbard; do you know who Mrs. H. H. Whip is?
2426
A I think that is Mary Sue Hubbard’s mother.
Q Mary Sue Hubbard’s maiden name was Mary Sue Whip; correct?
A Yes.
Q And this document appears to be a birthday card to Mrs. Hubbard with a money order and checks and notes within it from her mother?
A I don’t know. I have never seen it before.
Okay.
Q Was my description accurate?
A Yes.
Q And the next document, if you can identify it, is a birthday card signed “Mom and Dad”; do you have any idea who that is from or to?
A It appears to be — the “Mom and Dad” appear to be Mr. Hubbard’s parents.
Q And it appears to be a card to Mr. Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q And then the next is an original writing addressed “Dear Daddy” and signed “Nibs”; is that a letter from now Ronald De Wolfe to Mr. Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q And that would be a letter from when Ronald Dr Wolfe was young?
A Yes.
Q Can you date it more than that? Do you know when it would have been written?
A Possibly 1942, ‘43.
2427
Q Okay. Then the next one is a letter to Nibs, again, Ronald Dr. Wolfe and his wife Henrietta, right, a
note from 1953?
A Yes.
Q That is in Mr. Hubbard’s handwriting?
A Yes.
Q And the next is an envelope; then there are some sheets that have various kinds of notations that seem to have to do with costing something out?
A Yes.
Q And that — are these in Mr. Hubbard’s handwriting?
2428
Q And then something to the Pantheon Company; is that in Hubbard’s handwriting?
A Yes.
Q And this also seems to have to do with costing items?
A Yes.
Q And something in Mr. Hubbard’s handwriting about stage tech?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what period that is from?
A Probably 1946.
Q Okay, and then there are a variety of other materials; a calendar from some year, some other materials in Mr. Hubbard’s handwriting, this thing entitled “Article.” Is that in Mr. Hubbard’s handwriting?
A Yes.
Q And the thing entitled “A Foreign Ruler”; is that in Mr. Hubbard’s handwriting?
A Yes.
MR. FLYNN: Are they all MF or Contos & Bunch?
MR. LITT: This is Contos & Bunch, this set of materials.
MR. FLYNN: So I am not the bad guy on those.
MR. LITT: I guess not.
Q Now, what I need to do is get from Mr. Harris if I can take a moment the rest of these materials.
Now, the next set of materials is — it is 61-MF. It doesn’t have “MF” written on it, but on the
2429
outside of the folder that contains it it is noted where it comes from, so this would be 61-MF.Q Do you recognize that?
A Yes.
Q What is it?
A It has to do with Mr. Hubbard’s disability percentages he was allowed for particular complaints.
Q And the next one is 62-MF, and do you recognize that?
A Yes.
Q What is that?
A It is a letter apparently under FOI to a Mr. Moxin regarding Mr. Hubbard’s Naval records and the obtaining of a release for such.
MR. LITT: All right. I think that covers that for the moment, Your Honor.
Q Now, Mr. Armstrong, you had binders, I gather, of a variety of different materials. Did you have complete binders of the letters between Mr. Hubbard and his first wife?
THE COURT: I am not sure I understand what you mean by “complete.” I don’t know how he would know if every letter that was ever written betwen them was in it.
MR. LITT: I will rephrase it.
Q When you were in the archives, you collected up and put together whatever could be located or you could locate that were letters between Mr. Hubbard and his first
2430
wife; correct?A Yes.
Q And how many binders were those?
A They probably comprised seven binders.
Q Now, at some point after you left the church, you had possession of some of these binders again: is that correct?
A After I left the organization I was given the binders by Mr. Garrison for copying. I don’t recall if I had them all at one time or not.
2431
But in any case, I copied all or almost all of them.
Q For Mr. Garrison?
A Yes.
Q And did you then have there at your house in Costa Mesa, those copies?
A Yes. My recollection is some of them may have gone to a place Mr. Garrison was also storing some materials or stored them at one point or another. And that was at the home of another person by the name of Bill Grago.
But I definitely had almost all of the letters from that period, if not all of them. And I really cannot say if I had them all or not.
Q And many sets of binders of letters from Mr. Hubbard and his first wife did you send to Mr. Flynn?
A I — again, I really cannot say at this point. I — there is a quantity of them. And I sent whatever I had in my home in Costa Mesa at the time. If that isn’t all of them, then whatever else was copied remained with either Mr. Garrison or Mr. Grago.
Q All right. Now, were there letters also between Mr. Hubbard and his second wife that you sent?
A I really — I really don’t know if they were included or not.
There definitely was some materials to do with Sarah Northrup, Sarah Hubbard, which I have seen in the materials under seal. I don’t know if the letters between them is included.
2432
There was another binder which contained those letters. I probably did copy those materials from Mr. Garrison because he was — he considered them important for the biography.
Those copies may have gone to Mr. Grago, but I really, at this point, am not sure.
Q Now, did you ever go — did you ever keep materials at Mr. Grego’s?
A By which? Do you mean my own materials?
Q Well, let me ask the question this way; at some point you went to Mr. Grago’s house; isn’t that right, and picked up some materials?
A Well, I went a number of times.
I shouldn’t say “a number,” but probably three times I went to Mr. Grago’s to do with materials. Once was to drop off materials or, perhaps, twice to drop off materials. At least once I retrieved a bunch of materials for Mr. Garrison. And there was probably another time or one of those times I went down looking for materials amongst the stuff Mr. Grado had and was not able to locate the materials for Mr. Garrison. That is what I recall of my dealings with, you know, the materials in Mr. Grago’s house.
Q When was this?
A It would have been from — the first time I went down there was probably June or July, 1982.
Q So in June or July you went to Mr. Grago’s to get some materials for Mr. Garrison?
A I don’t know which happened first, whether or
2433
not I put materials into Mr. Grago’s — I think that happened sometime later.Mr. Garrison did call me a number of times through that period. He had by then moved up to Utah.
So he depended on me to go and retrieve the materials and send particular materials that he wanted. And
I did do that on at least one occasion and I did look on another occasion. And I did put materials in there from the materials that I had in the apartment in Costa Mesa.
Q Do you remember what it was that was stored with Mr. Grago that you picked up?
A My recollection is it had to do with the Navy. And there was a number of binders, actually, down there which Mr. Garrison had left with Mr. Grago, probably because he couldn’t carry them all at one point. And it was some of those binders. And I really don’t recall which ones they were. But there was a number of binders and I recall Naval papers being involved.
2434
Q And did copies of these go to Mr. Flynn?
A Copies of the materials?
Q Of these materials that you got from Mr. Crago’s house in June or July.
A Maybe some of them, but I seem to recall that those were materials which I sent directly up to Mr. Garrison.
Q Did you copy any of them first?
A I really don’t know. It seems to me that these were materials of not a great deal of interest. They may have even been materials of formerly-published books.
There was a number of binders which I prepared for Mr. Garrison which were of that nature, articles and so on on Mr. Hubbard and Scientology. If they were that, I probably would not have gone to the expense of copying them again, but I really am not sure.
I just do recall going down and picking up certain materials which he wanted and searching on another occasion and not finding what he wanted.
Q Now, going back to sort of what you — these different binders that you had, you said you had binders between Mr. Hubbard and his first wife. You had binders — you are not sure between Mr. Hubbard and his second wife. I take it you had binders concerning letters between Mr. Hubbard and Mary Sue Hubbard.
A What period are you talking about?
Q I am talking again about the period April, May, June; May on.
2435
A Right. There was a number of those materials as well which I copied, had duplicate sets at that time.
Q And if I understand it right, you copied the binders that you had, whatever you had in them in this correspondence and sent that off to Mr. Flynn; is that correct?
A When I — during the majority of the copying, the majority of the copying that I did predated any contract with Mr. Flynn. That was done before the photo incident and I was just doing it at Mr. Garrison’s request because he was concerned about their security and he wanted a duplicate set. So most of the copying was done like that.
Some of the rest of the copying, binders which I obtained from Mr. Garrison specifically, I copied and gave him back the binder or I took the binder and copied the materials, or one or the other.
Q And what did you obtain specifically from him?
A Some of the Naval records, the estimate on Mr. Flynn, I recall some of the Nibs materials. That is all I can recall at this moment although I very much recall stating at another time and having a longer list, and for some reason I am just not hitting on part of the materials which I recall from that list.
Q When you say “obtained from Mr. Garrison,” in addition to what you are describing, did you go through Mr. Garrison’s materials that were at his home in Utah or did you just rely mainly on the materials that you had duplicates of in Costa Mesa?
2436
A To do what?
Q To pick out the materials to send to Mr. Flynn.
A No, there was a specific set of materials which I asked for. I had already, prior to Mr. Garrison going up to Utah, I had a great bulk of copies, many of which are here in the court, and this was the duplicate set.
But there was another set of materials which I obtained from Mr. Garrison and I gave him a list of them at the time of exactly what binders I had and those binders I copied. I remember there were several items on the list, but I don’t recall what they were right now. Perhaps what we call the affirmations or admissions were among them.
Q Among the materials that you asked for?
A Probably. I am just trying to recall that list. The Parsons materials, the Alexis materials –
THE COURT: I think we will take a recess and maybe you can jog your memory during the noon recess. 1:30.
(At 11:58 a.m. the noon recess was taken, to be resumed at 1:30 p.m. of the same day.)
2437
Los Angeles, California; Friday, May 18, 1984= 1:30 p.m.
—0—
THE COURT: in the case on trial, let the record reflect that counsel are present; the witness has retaken the stand.
State your name again for the record, sir. You are still under oath.
THE WITNESS: Gerald Armstrong.
THE COURT: Mr. Litt, you may continue.
GERALD ARMSTRONG, the witness on the stand at the time of the recess, having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:
CROSS-EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. LITT:
Q Mr. Armstrong, we were talking before the break about movements of some of these materials in the period after you left the church; let me ask you something: did you give some materials to Virgil Wilhite that came from the Archives about the time that you left your Archives post?
A By which do you mean — there are two sets of materials; which are you referring to?
Q I am not sure.
A Okay. I sold some of my personal materials to Mr. Wilhite during that period. There was a small — there
2438
is a metal; there was a couple of things which were mine.Are you referring to those?
Q No.
A Okay. When I was leaving the organization, in order to effect a transfer between two vehicles, I dropped off with Mr. Wilhite a couple of boxes, about two boxes of my clothing and about two boxes of materials for Mr. Garrison. And I left them at Mr. Wilhite’s home for a couple of hours and then went back with Mr. Garrison’s truck and picked them up.
2439
Q Okay. At some point — I still want to get this straightened out.
At some point you moved some archive materials or copies of archive materials to Mr. Crago’s; is that right?
A This is much later.
Q Yes.
A Some of the materials which I was holding then for Mr. Garrison, being done with them, I asked Mr. Garrison where did he want them, so those ones I moved down to Bill Crago’s.
Q And when was that, approximately?
A Probably July 1982.
Q This was during the period where you were copying — strike that.
This was during the period where you were sending materials to Mr. Flynn; is that right?
A That’s correct.
Q Did you only go to Mr. Crago’s office on one occasion in July to drop some materials off?
A There was — I think I went to Mr. Crago’s office, probably saw him about five times. Once I met him with Mr. Garrison.
Then the next time was to drop materials off. Next time was to pick some up from Mr. Garrison, and then I believe the last time was to — there may have been two times when I picked something up from Mr. Garrison and then there was another time when I went down looking for some
2440
documents that he wanted and couldn’t find them.All of this would be in the period June through August 1982. I don’t recall if there was any time after the beginning of this lawsuit, but I very much doubt it.
Q And the materials that you picked up from Mr. Crago on these two occasions, do you recall what they were?
A I think I went into that this morning as well as I could.
THE COURT: That is my recollection.
Q BY MR. LITT: Did you send any of the materials that you had obtained from Mr. Crago or copies of any of those materials to Mr. Flynn?
A Well, again, I may have, but I really couldn’t identify them at this time and they are not as significant that they stick in my mind.
At least the vast bulk of materials which I sent to Mr. Flynn consisted of either materials that I had in my possession or some which I obtained through June and July from Garrison as I was able to obtain them from him.
Q Now, let’s go to a period in August.
When did you perceive that you were being followed by someone or surveilled by someone?
A Well, I had known about it for some time. I watched for — the first time I was actually able to isolate a vehicle was sometime in August. I don’t recall exactly, but that was the first time when I was able to make a positive identification.
2441
I believed before that. I was looking for it, so I knew that I was being followed, but the positive identification I had not been able to make up to that point.
Q When you say “isolated,” by that you mean identify a particular car and get a license plate or something like that?
A Right. Lead a vehicle sufficiently to be able to confirm that he was making exactly the same moves I was and was, in fact, tailing me.
Q So as I understand it you had perceived that you were being followed earlier, but you hadn’t been able to confirm it until August?
A Right.
Q Now, this log that you kept, when did you start keeping this log?
A Sometime in August.
Q Would it refresh your recollection if I asked you if it was starting August 18th?
A Okay.
MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, may he have the log in front of him?
THE COURT: Do you need it to refresh your memory?
THE WITNESS: That would help.
THE COURT: All right.
Q BY MR. LITT: The first incident that you have recorded is August 18; correct?
A Yes.
Q I take it this is the first occasion on which
2442
you made any notes?A Yes. I don’t have the handwritten thing that I did at that time, but I see I typed this on August 22nd, but in any case this is the first one, I believe.
2443
Q Now, as I understand it — I don’t have any more questions on that at the moment — you had known you were being followed since May of 1982; is that your testimony?
A Well, yes.
Q Now, Mr. Armstrong, do you recall being asked in an interrogatory in this case entitled “Interrogatories propounded to defendant and cross-complainant Gerald Armstrong by plaintiff and cross-defendant Church of Scientology of California, Set No. l:
“Q 7(B)” –
Well, Question 7 reads:
“With regard to the allegations contained in paragraph 33 of your First Amended Cross-complaint for damages that cross-complainant suffered shock and great emotional, physical, and psychological distress, provide the following information:”
And (B) says, “The dates and-times which you claim to have experienced such distress.”
Do you remember seeing this interrogatory?
A Yes.
Q And with respect to your answer to 7(B), do you remember listing a variety of things, one of which says, “Upon perception that I was being spied upon sometime in August, 1982. . ,”?
A Yes.
Q And this was completed on May 5th, 1983?
A Okay.
2444
Q And it has your signature on the verification; is that right?
A Yes.
Q So in that interrogatory you stated that you perceived that you were being, “spied upon in August”; isn’t that right?
A Let me re-explain that again. That is true in part.
As I say here, that was the first time where I was able to isolate someone this way and confirm it.
My wife and I had perceived people prior to that whom we believed were following us. I knew that I had my place staked out; I knew prior to this that they knew where I was working because I had been served at my place of work.
I knew that they knew where my PO box and where I was and that they knew what I looked like because someone staked me out there.
We had perceived someone watching our apartment in probably May or June. So we were very aware at that time.
I believe that I picked up this yellow Volkswagon because I had noticed it around before.
Q Mr. Armstrong, if I understand what you are saying, when you used the words “upon perception that you were being spied upon,” you meant upon isolating or corroborating or verifying or confirming, whatever phrase you wanted to use, that you were being watched: is that what you meant by that?
A Yes.
2445
Q Well, let me show you the next section of that interrogatory.
After saying, “upon perception that I was being spied upon sometime in August, 1982,” listing another element of your emotional damages, you say, “. . .upon confirmation that I was being spied upon August, 1982. . .”; isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q So you listed at the time, didn’t you, as separate categories the perception of being spied upon and the confirmation of being spied upon; correct?
A Okay.
Q And at the time that you answered these interrogatories, you said that both of those were in August, 1982; isn’t that correct?
A The –
Isn’t that correct?
A That is correct. But I don’t think you have got the whole picture.
Q That is the only question that I have at the moment, Mr. Armstrong, on that topic. Your counsel can inquire.
Now, this, as you all it, confirmation that occurred of being watched, that occurred on August 18, 1982, was that right around the time — strike that — had you already at that point returned — I’m sorry, not “returned” — had you already at that point sent to Mr. Flynn or to Contos and Bunch all of the materials which are presently under seal?
2446
A Yes.
Q Now, if I understand the testimony correctly, the first — in your direct testimony, the first instant that you described that — and your direct testimony had to do with a man named Gregory Osborne; is that right?
A Yes.
Q Did that occur on September 20th?
A I don’t believe so. I don’t recall which incident you’re talking about, but the first time when I actually confronted one of these people and talked to them was August 20, 1982. I spoke –
Q Did I say September 20th?
A Yes.
Q I am sorry. You are correct, It is October 20th.
Now, in that incident I believe you testified you snuck out of your apartment and accosted the person who you believed was watching you; correct?
A Possibly I said that.
I came upon him, confronted him, yes.
Q And you had a conversation with him at that time; is that right?
A Yes.
Q is that right?
A Yes.
Q And in that conversation he told you that he had never hurt anybody and wouldn’t hurt you?
A Are you reading from my conversation?
Q Not precisely. I am summarizing what it appears to me your notes reflect.
A Well, I think that wasn’t the totality of the
2447
conversation.Q I realize that was not the totality of the conversation.
He did make that statement to you in the course of the conversation; did he not?
A He did say, “I am not hurting you.”
He said, “I have never hurt anybody. I wouldn’t hurt you,”
Q Now, then, after this conversation occurred you flagged down a motorcycle rider; is that right?
A Yes.
And you asked the motorcycle rider to stay there while you called the police?
A Yes.
Q And the motorcycle rider stayed there and you called the police and then you returned and you stood next to the Volkswagon; is that right, that had been –
A Yes.
2448
Q And you stayed close to the person who was driving the Volkswagen; is that right?
A Well I stayed near the car. I did not want him to take off. I think that he walked around.
I was not staying close to him so much as staying close to the car.
Q Okay, and at some point he made a comment to you about the fact that he could leave or something like that; is that right?
A It’s very possible that he did. I don’t recall in detail this conversation at this point, but undoubtedly –
Q What I am really getting at is in response to a comment that he made, you told him that if he tried to leave, you would lie in front of his car; is that right?
A Something like that.
Q And then he got in his car and started up the motor as if to drive away; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And you stuck your foot in front of one of the tires, one of the front tires of his car; is that right?
A Yes.
Q So that he would have to run over your foot in order to drive away?
A Yes.
Q And he then stopped the car; is that right?
A Yes.
2449
Q And you then had another conversation with him, and among other things, he said to you that you have nothing to be afraid of; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, lets go to — well, let me ask the question this way: You testified about a second incident. I believe that was the phrase you used.
When did that incident occur, the next incident that you here talking about in your direct testimony?
A I don’t recall which one I talked about as next in the direct testimony. The next incident that I have in these papers here is August 29.
Q All right. This is the incident where, I think you testified, that somebody tried to push you into a building or something?
A Around the back behind a building.
Q That occurred on August 29?
A Yes.
Q That was nine days after this first incident that you have described?
A Yes.
Q And you observed a car watching your apartment; is that right?
A Yes.
Q And you climbed a fence and went around toward where the car was parked; is that right?
A I climbed a fence? I don’t see in here where I climbed a fence and I don’t recall climbing a
2450
fence.Q Well if you look at the next to the last paragraph on the first page, your description of these events, it says:
“I asked my wife Joyce to observe what went on and I took my camera” at cetera.
Do you see that?
A Wait. I am in the apartment still. Okay.
Q So you climbed a fence and you went around to where this person was parked and approached the car and started taking pictures; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And there was a 10-minute period which was an exchange between you and this man which was, I gather, something of a verbal argument?
A During which he pushed me around.
Q Well you state on page 3 of this report that this occurred for 10 minutes.
Is it your testimony that he pushed you around for 10 minutes?
A No. I am just adding in that, in addition to the conversation, he pushed me around and so there was physical pushing and not just talking.
Q And after this supposed physical pushing, you and he than had a verbal disagreement for the next 10 minutes?
A Well I would not characterize it as a verbal disagreement He called ms “A fucking punk.”
2451
He called me a number of things. He tried to get me upset so that I would fight him.
MR. LITT: I move to strike that last as a conclusion, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. The latter portion will be stricken.
Q BY MR. LITT: In any event, this took a 10-minute period of time?
A Approximately, yes.
Q And then your wife Joyce drove up?
A Yes.
Q And you instructed her to go look in his car?
A Yes.
Q And then when he went over to the car, you started taking pictures again?
A Yes.
Q All right. And then I believe that you testified about a third incident where you say that.your elbow was hurt; is that right?
A Yes.
Q And that incident occurred on August 31?
A Yes.
Q This time you were leaving work; is that right?
A It was during lunch time.
Q And you noticed a car following you and got out of your car; is that right? You pulled over and got out of your car?
A That’s correct.
2452
Q And then you began to approach the car that you believed was following you?
A Yes.
Q And the driver of the car began to move away from the curb and to leave; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And you signaled to him to stop and ran up to his car; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And he continued to drive away toward a corner; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And he began to turn right?
A Yes.
Q And as he had to stop for a moment at the corner, you cut in front of his car; is that right?
A Yes.
Q And ran toward it?
A Yes.
Q In the course of that your elbow hit the car?
A Yes.
Q And then he got out and appeared to be angry at you about what you had done in running into his car?
A That is how he made it appear, yes.
Q You and your wife then went to the Costa Mesa Police Department?
A Yes.
Q And reported all of this; is that right?
2453
A Yes.
Q And the officer then told you that there was nothing that the police could do and that it was perfectly legal that you were being surveilled?
A She said something to that effect, yes.
Q And later in the day you returned to the police station and had a discussion with the same person; is that right, at the police department?
A Yes.
Q This was the Costa Mesa Police Department?
A Yes.
Q And she informed you that the people who were following you were employed by a private detective agency?
A I believe so, yes, she did.
Q And she again told you that they were within the law to follow you?
A Something to that effect.
Q And you came away front these two discussions with the Costa Mesa Police Department believing that either the police didn’t care about what happened to you or they were in the employment of the people following you or in the employ of Scientology?
A I came away absolutely disgusted.
Q You believed, didn’t you, that the Costa Mesa Police Department had been bought off or something like that by Scientology?
A I saw that as a very distinct possibility.
Q And you also, didn’t you, when you had contact
2454
with people from the Los Angeles Police Department who were investigating a complaint against you, you concluded that they were harassing you on behalf of the Church of Scientology; is that right?A Yes.
2455
MR. LITT: Your Honor, at this point we are going to shift and Mr. Harris is going to pick up the cross-examination.
MR. FLYNN: As long as the shift means that Mr. Litt is done, Your Honor.
MR. HARRIS: He is done.
MR. LITT: Yes, that is what it means.
MR. FLYNN: We have been in depositions in which they go back and forth, and I just wanted to make sure.
MR. HARRIS: Well, I haven’t been involved in any such depositions.
MR. LITT: Neither have I.
THE COURT: All right; Mr. Harris, you may proceed.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Your Honor.
I have a document, Your Honor, entitled “Sea organization Contract of Employment.” May that be marked plaintiff’s next in order.
THE COURT: 36.
THE CLERK: Well he’s got documents not marked in between. Are they in the 500 series?
THE COURT: No, these aren’t sealed.
THE CLERK: Okay; 37.
THE COURT: 37 for identification.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HARRIS:
Q Mr. Armstrong, I’d like to take you back to the time that you joined the Sea Organization.
2456
Did you sign something like Exhibit 37?
A By which you mean something like — do you mean that the words were the same but the page was different?
Q Well, let me ask you: Do you recognize what you have before you as Exhibit 37 as the Sea Org contract that you signed?
A No. This document is not signed.
Q Yes. If the blanks therein were what you were confronted with before you picked up the hand with a pen and signed it, was that what you signed?
A No.
Q Do you have your Sea Org contract?
A Somewhere. I don’t know if I have it here.
I perhaps have a copy.
Q Not here in the courtroom?
A That is correct.
Q You have it someplace else?
A I believe. I don’t know if I have it. I have seen it at some point and I have testified as to more or less the contents, but you go ahead.
Q In what respect, sir, given your memory, did the Sea Org contract that you signed differ from exhibit 37, if at all?
A The document I signed which was some time in early February 1981 said that — gave a different purpose than it said that it was — the purpose was to create
2457
highly functioning Dianetics and Scientology organizations.Some time in approximately ‘73 that Sea Organization contract was cancelled and a document, Flag Order was issued stating that this document which you have here was to be the only Sea Org contract. I never re-signed one at that point.
Q Other than the purpose which you say was to do what was Scientology organizations?
A Whatever I said.
Q Well, just could you tell me one more time, please.
A I believe it was to create highly functioning Dianetics and Scisatology organizations.
Q When you signed the Sea Org contract that is different than exhibit 37, where did you do that?
A In Los Angeles in an office that was then called USLO, United States Liaison Office, and it was in the front of that building.
2458
Q And you are quite sure that the name of it was the United States Liaison Office; is that correct?
A It might have been something else. That is what I was told it was. And there was a sign saying that that was what it was.
Q In February 1981?
A That is correct.
Q And inside this office were there people in uniforms?
A I don’t believe any of the people I saw were in uniform. There may have been some passing through who was in uniform; none of the people that I encountered at that point other than someone off in the background, maybe.
Q And did you, when you signed this contract, sign it in front of a witness, the Sea Org contract?
A Yes.
Q Who was that?
A Ann Tasket.
Q And was Ann Tasket wearing a uniform?
A I don’t believe she was.
Q And you had come down from Canada to the area to join the Sea Org; right?
A That is correct.
Q And after you signed the contract you went aboard a ship; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q And that ship was the Bollivar?
A Yes.
2459
Q And where was it located?
A I believe in Long Beach Harbor.
Q When you went aboard the Bollivar were people in uniform?
A Some of them were, yes.
Q When you went aboard the Bollivar did you learn something about ships?
A Yes.
Q It was a part of what you were taught as a member of the Sea Org as to how to handle ships; right?
A Yes.
Q You were given something which was called “Welcome to the Sea Org”; right?
A No.
Q Aboard the Bollivar did you not have a transcript of a tape called “Welcome to the Sea Org”?
A No.
Q Did you do a Product Zero checklist aboard the Bollivar?
A No.
Q Did you do a Product Zero checklist aboard the Bollivar?
A No.
Q Did you do any kind of study or training aboard the Bollivar?
A Yes.
Q And did it involve how to — strike that — did it have anything to do with ships?
A Yes.
2460
Q How to maintain them?
A To some degree, yes.
Q How to make certain that they were safe?
A Aspects, yes.
Q And how, unlike on dry land, at sea if the ship went out from under you, you had no place to go; right?
THE COURT: Do you mean if he fell off?
Q BY MR. HARRIS: If the ship went out from under you, whether it sunk or you fell off.
A Did I learn that?
THE COURT: Walk the plank?
MR. HARRIS: Yes.
Q Were there references made to having a ship in the ocean being a safe place to be on?
A Yes.
Q Did you learn in your Product Zero how to communicate amongst various levels of Scientology?
THE COURT: I think he said he didn’t have a Product Zero.
BY MR. HARRIS: Did you do have a Product Zero check sheet?
A No.
Q Was there a name for a course that you took aboard the Bollivar?
A I don’t know if it was a course. It may have been called a course.
2461
I studied something called “The Ship’s Org Book.”
2462
Q And was that a series of policy letters?
A No.
Q Was it a series of Flag orders?
A Yes.
Q And what did you understand Flag to be at the time that you took this ship’s work book?
A Flag is a Naval term referring to the flagship in the Navy group.
Q And that is what you understood Flag to be in the context of a Flag order?
A That is correct.
Q Did you subsequently learn that there was something called Flag in Scientology?
A Subsequent to what?
Q To your time on Bollivar?
A No. I knew during or prior to my time on the Bollivar.
Q And did you understand that that is where L. Ron Hubbard was; at Flag?
A Yes.
Q And you udnerstood that the Flag orders that you were reading were written by L. Ron Hubbard?
A Right, some at least.
Q And were there also Flag orders that were written by people called aides?
A Yes.
Q And you understood that those people were aides to Mr. Hubbard?
2163
A Yes.
Q Now, when you completed your course, if that is what it was, aboard the Hollivar, did you immediately
leave for Spain?
A I don’t understand your question.
Q You did go to Madrid at some point after being aboard the Bollivar; did you not?
A Yes.
Q Did you immediately do that, or was there a wait of some days or weeks?
A From when?
Q From the time, Mr. Armstrong, that you left the Bollivar?
A From the time I left the Hollivar, I left for Madrid probably 24 hours later.
Q And were you told that you were on a mission at the time that you left for Madrid?
A Oh, I don’t know if the word ‘mission” was used or not.
Q Did you upon arrival in Madrid go to some location in Madrid? That is quite general. I will withdraw
it.
Did you go to an office in Madrid?
A Yes.
Q And at that time were you given things to read?
A I don’t believe so.
Q Were you orally told anything about the
2464
ship?A We were told where to go.
Q And issued tickets or money to get there?
A Yes.
Q So up until that point you had not been told what you told us what the shore story; right?
A Well the shore story — I was briefed on the shore story. In fact, it was a Flagship order as I recall called the Shore Story which contained the OTC shore story prior to leaving. This was the cover that we were to use while we were traveling and I was briefed at USLO, and it was by an external communications personnel.
I did not get the total drift of what it was at the time, but I was briefed on that shore story, the OTC story by the external communications person at that time.
Q And who was that?
A That is the first and last time I saw him. I don’t believe I can recall his name at this point.
Q And the shore story was that you would working for OTC?
A Basically. It was not quite that clear.
It began with a description of factually this is what we are. We are a management corporation. When it said Operation and Transport Corporation, I did not note that at that time as what it turned out to be.
2465
I thought that it was part of the Sea organization. But I really didn’t know that we were going to be telling everyone that this was Operation and Transport Corporation.
I didn’t know at the time that we would be any different from what we were on the Bollivar when we said
that we were the Sea organization.
So I didn’t twig on that until on board.
Q “Twig on that” means come to a realization?
A Yes, sort of, you know, realize what it was about.
MR. HARRIS: I have a document entitled “Sea Organization Flag Order No. 2673 Stories Told.”
Your Honor, may that be marked plaintiff’s 38?
THE COURT: Surely; 38 for identification.
MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, may some of these be given to me in advance of the time they are going to be used? It seems to me the Court issued an order the other day.
THE COURT: Well, that was, really with reference to the cross-examination of this witness. So I guess I’ll have to be consistant.
MR. HARRIS: It is unclear to me, Your Honor, what I am going to use or not use. There are a couple of items that I probably will use which I’ll probably give to Mr. Flynn.
THE COURT: Very well.
Q BY MR. HARRIS: Let me ask you, Mr. Armstrong, is exhibit 38 what you were briefed orally at USLO in February, 1971?
2466
A This may be it. There’s another one called “A Flag Ship Order.” And it is the OTC Shore Story.
Q Isn’t it — strike that — did you ever receive a copy of exhibit 38 while you were in the Sea organization?
A Yes.
Q What does SH mean in exhibit 38?
A Saint Hill.
Q Saint Hill being the place in England where Mr. Hubbard was prior to going on a ship; right?
A Yes.
Q The place where there was a Scientology organization; right?
A Are you referring now to Saint Hill?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q And had you any awareness of who was managing Saint Hill while Mr. Hubbard was aboard the ship?
A Yes.
Q Who was that?
A Mr. Hubbard.
Q Did you hear of anything called “The Executive Council WW” while you were aboard the ship?
A Yes.
Q And when you were in Madrid were you given tickets or money to go to the ship?
A I believe we were given both.
Q Tickets for a ferry?
A My best recollection is tickets for the train;
2467
money for the ferry.
Q So when you went to Algeciras you took a ferry from there to the ship; is that right?
A Yes.
Q And the ship was the Apollo; correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, did you understand that the Apollo was also called “Flag” at the time that you arrived there?
A Yes.
Q And when you went aboard the ship your first post, if you want to call it that, was doing manual labor; is that correct?
A Yes.
2468
Q Did you do any studying when you first arrived on the ship?
A Yes.
Q And what was the first thing that you studied aboard the ship?
A The briefing pack on OTC and the ship.
Q Did the briefing pack contain exhibit 38?
A I believe so, this and a number of other issues.
Q And do you recall the issues at this time?
A There was the one which I told you about, the Flagship orders, and there was a number of other ones to do with shore flaps, to do with ethics.
Q Ethics you say?
A Yes.
Q What else?
A That is what I recall right now.
Q Shore flaps, what is the flap?
A A flap is a — it is a serious problem. It is a blowup.
Q A blowup — you mean something happens that is not optimum for the group or what?
A But it is bigger than that.
Q Bigger than not being optimum, maybe like a disaster?
A Somewhere between a disaster and something not quite optimum.
Q And this briefing pack, was there a check
2469
sheet on it?A I don’t believe the initial ones contained a check sheet. They may have.
There was also a number of drills which had to be done. There was a check sheet, check list or check sheet which a person used when they came on board the ship; and it was part of that check sheet which contained the briefing and the materials that I am talking abort.
I don’t think that there was a sub-check sheet at that time anyway.
Q So there was a larger check sheet within which was a section dealing with the briefing pack on OTC flaps and ethics?
A Yeah, and the drilling and the shore story and that sort of thing.
Q And the share story that you drilled, was it the shore story that appears in exhibit 38?
A Roughly, yes.
Q Now at that point when you drilled this shore story, did you understand that it was false?
A Well, I knew when I drilled it to say that we were not Scientology that it was false, yes.
Q Does exhibit 38 say that you are not Scientology?
A No. but that was the way we drilled it.
Q Well, when you say you drilled it, what did you do? You had somebody that you — that would question you and you would archer or what are talking about when you say drilled it?
2470
A Well, there was someone in the port captain’s office and he would first brief you on what you were to say and then the drilling proceeded in which you were asked questions like the person would say, the driller, he would say:
“Okay. Now, I am a local person. I’m going to ask you questions. Who do you work for?
“Operations and Transport Corporation.
“What’s that?
“Oh, that’s a big management corporation.
“Oh. What do you do?
“Oh, well we manage businesses around the world.
“Well, how do you make your money?
“Well, we get it by percentage of the increases of income of our clients.
“Oh, who are your clients?
“Oh, we have some businesses in all facets of life. You know, we manage football teams.
We manage big corporations, banks, we are involved in that.
“Oh, you guys aren’t Scientology?
“What? Seismology? No, we don’t have anything to do with earthquakes.”
Q That is as you remember the shore story that you were drilled on; is that correct?
A I remember it very well.
2471
Q And you remember football teams and banks; right?
A Yes.
Q And now at that point, having come into Scientology in part because of the truthfullness and honesty of it, did you say hey, this is not for me; I am packing up and leaving? Did you, or didn’t you?
A Did I pack up and leave?
Q Did you say you were going to pack up and leave?
A Nope.
Q And did you pack up and leave?
A No.
Q Now, was there anything else that you can remember from this check sheet other than the OTC Shore Story?
A Oh, in addition to the Port Captain’s Office Flag orders, Flag ship orders that I have talked about?
Q Yes; on the check sheet, the OTC Shore Story, as I understand your testimony, was one section; what was the rest of the check sheet?
A Oh, the check sheet, okay. First, you came on board and berthing was a part of the check sheet. So you’re given a place to stay.
Q Is there something you would initial on the check sheet, “I now have a berth”? Yes or no.
A I’m not quite sure how to answer. Are you being me?
Q How about yes or no, Mr. Armstrong.
A Okay.
Q Do you recall the question?
2472
A Well, who is the “you” in the –
Q You don’t understand my question?
A No.
Q Very well. A check sheet has little lines over on the right-hand side that you initial when you have completed something; isn’t that correct?
A Okay.
Q Does that mean yes, “okay”?
A Yes.
Q And in this particular case, when it came to berthing, was there something that you initialed?
A Well –
Q Yes or no.
A There was something to be initialed, but I didn’t initial these things.
Q Somebody else did?
A Yes.
Q And you saw them do that?
A Yes.
Q So this was like a routing aboard kind of check sheet; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q It isn’t a check sheet that you yourself initialed?
A No. The various people that you had to go through and clear things with, obtain things from, give things to, be briefed by, be debriefed, each one of those people signed it off.
2473
Q So this was going through various parts of the ship and getting berthing, getting clothes, things like that?
A It was not any clothes, but things like that.
Q All right. I take it you did have some clothes at that point; right?
A Yes.
Q And those were the clothes that you wore down from Canada?
A Yes.
Q Did you ultimately receive a uniform?
A When you say “ultimately” –
Q Yes; at some point while you were aboard the ship, the Apollo, did you get a uniform?
A Approximately 1974 was the first uniform issued.
Q Other people aboard the ship prior to 1974 had uniforms?
A Do you mean did they wear clothes?
Q Did you observe uniforms?
A Yes. There were some uniforms.
Q But you yourself didn’t wear one until 1974?
A That was the first one I was issued, yes.
Q Now, your first job was, as you indicated, doing some kinds of labor aboard the ship; right?
A Yes.
Q And your second job.
How long did that last, by the way?
A Do you want a breakdown of those labor jobs?
Q Well, no. You had several labor jobs during
2474
that period?A I — yes.
Q Well, how long did the first one last and what was it?
A I was then working in the — I was assistant stores man. And I doubled in the galley for awhile doing dishes. And this lasted a couple of weeks.
Q Then what was the next labor job that you had?
A Then I was on the Deck Project Force.
Q The Deck Project Force?
A Yes.
Q And this was a designation of some group?
A Yes. My recollection is I was the only one in it, but it was a designation given to a particular group.
Q And what were your labor jobs in the Deck Project Force?
A Scraping and painting. And that was mainly it.
Q And this was in Morocco; right?
A Yes.
Q For how long after you arrive aboard was the ship in Morocco?
A Until, I believe — I believe the summer of 1971.
Q Now, how long did you stay on the Deck Project Force?
A I think a couple of weeks.
2475
Q And then what manual labor did you do?
A Then I was the ship’s boats and transport in charge.
2476
Q Now, what did that job consist of?
A I was in charge of lifeboats, the sea sleds. We had two sea sleds on board. I was in charge of some mopeds which we had, and I became in charge of a vehicle, a Fiat car.
Q Now, was your job to maintain these various items?
A Not the mechanical maintenance.
Q Somebody else did that?
A Yes.
Q You were in charge of polishing them or keeping salt off of them? What was your job in that post?
A My job was to provide transport to all the people on the ship who had business ashore and who needed the transport.
Q Now, by that time you had been aboard the ship for how long when you took over this post of the transport in charge?
A Probably a month.
Q And during the month I take it that you had an opportunity to learn pretty much where everything was aboard the Apollo; right?
A Those are a lot of things. I don’t think so.
Q Well did you learn that there was a space within the Apollo that was designated a course room?
A Yes.
Q Did you learn that aboard the Apollo there
2477
were rooms called auditing rooms?A There were rooms which doubled as auditing rooms. There was nothing designated as such auditing rooms.
Q But you knew that auditing went on in those rooms from time to time; right?
A Yes.
Q And you learned the place to go and get your pay; didn’t you?
A Yes.
Q And that vas called the treasury division; right?
A Yes.
Q And you learned that there were management activities going on aboard the Apollo; right?
A Yes.
Q Did you know that aboard the Apollo there was a place called CIC?
A Yes.
Q And CIC contained graphs; is that right?
A How do you spell that word?
Q G-r-a-p-h-s.
Q And these graphs were posted on the bulkheads within a certain room; right?
A By which you mean it was only on the bulkheads?
Q Well, were there graphs posted on the bulkheads of the room?
2478
A Yes.
Q Were there graphs at other places in the room?
A Yes.
Q And the graphs would have names of organizations upon them; right?
A Yes.
Q And at a glance you could tell how an organization was doing by the graph; right?
A By which you mean what the gross income was?
Q Well, do you mean to say, sir, that the only thing that was on the graph in CIC was gross income?
A No, but you are saying how they were doing.
Q Well, how they were doing wan a function of many statistics; was it not?
A It could have been, yes.
Q Well, when you say it could have been; was it?
A That is not in my mind.
Q You didn’t know at that time all of the statistics that were kept on how an org was doing; is that right?
A No.
Q Did you subsequently learn that there were a number of statistics which indicated how an organization was doing?
A They indicated –
2479
Q Yes or no.
A I learned of many other statistics which were kept.
Q Now, you also became aware of where L. Ron Hubbard was aboard the ship; right?
A Yes.
Q And Mary Sue Hubbard?
A Yes.
Q And you knew that he was called the Commodore; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And that Mary Sue Hubbard was called Commodore Staff Guardian; right?
A Yes.
Q And was there a Commodore Staff 1, 2, 3, et cetera?
A Yes.
Q And these are things you learned before even assuming the job of transport IC: right?
A Probably, yes.
Q And while you were aboard the ship, there was an issue, a mimeo issue called “Flag orders of the day”; right?
A It was called “Orders of the day.” It was not called “Flag orders of the day.” They were the orders of the day from Flag, yes.
Q Did you understand that the very place that you were was Flag?
2480
A Yes.
Q And the orders of the day would contain various things about what was happening on the ship; right?
A Yes.
Q And you read these daily; did you not?
A Yes.
Q You were also, when we talk about issues, Mr. Armstrong, you are talking about HCOPL’s; right? That is one class of issue?
A Yes.
2481
Q And you are talking about Flag orders; right, that is an issue?
A Yes.
Q And you are talking about executive directives; right?
A Yes.
Q You are talking about various kinds of mimeoed items that are given to the crew; right?
A Yes.
Q There were Flag ship orders; right?
A Yes.
Q Which had to do with the running and maintaince of the ship?
A Among other things, yes.
Q And the Flag orders were items concerning the Sea organization?
A Yes.
Q Now, did you, after you got in Transport IC post, go to some place in Morocco transporting people there?
A I don’t understand your question.
Q Did you transport anybody on the land in the country of Morocco, Mr. Armstrong?
A It is a funny question.
Q Yes or no; did you transport anybody on the land in the country of Morocco, Mr. Armstrong?
A After I became the driver.
Q So you didn’t do that as Transport IC?
A Not really.
2482
Q When you say “not really,’ do you mean it was maybe once or twice?
A I doubled-hatted throughout a period. And then I was single-hatted as the driver.
Q When you say “double-hatted,” do you mean you held two posts simultaneously?
A Yes.
Q One was Transport In Charge and one was driver?
A That is correct.
Q And did you drive anybody on the land in the Morocco?
A Yes.
Q And where did you take these people?
A On the land.
Q Various places on the land; right?
A Yes.
Q Was there one particular place that you took people more often than others?
A By that, do you mean the place that they wanted to go the most?
Q No; where you took then, sir.
THE COURT: Is there a distinction, where they wanted to go as distinguished from where you took them?
THE WITNESS: I don’t understand your question.
Q BY MR. HARRIS: Was there a place called “Tours Reception Center” in Morocco that you took people to?
A Yes.
Q And did you do that at the time that you were
2483
the driver?A Yes.
Q I take it you had an opportunity to look at the grounds and the buildings at Tours Reception Center; right?
A Yes.
Q And there were classrooms there; right?
A Yes.
Q And there was a translation unit there; right?
A I don’t believe I ever saw a translation unit.
Q You heard about it; did you know anybody who was working in the translation unit?
A Sometime later.
Q Did you transport anybody to the Tours Reception Center who you knew to be a translator?
A I don’t believe so.
Q Did you ever drive Mr. Hubbard to the Tours Reception Center?
A No.
Q Did you ever drive Mr. Hubbard in the Fiat anywhere in Morocco?
A No.
Q Did you ever drive Mary Sue Hubbard in the Fiat anyplace in Morocco?
A Yes.
Q And when was that, sir?
A That would have been in 1971.
We were in Safi. And she had a dental appointment.
2484
And I drove her and her communicator, Nikki Merwyn at that time.
There were another few times when I drove her in Morocco, but that is the time that stands out.
Q Now, Safi was not near where the Tours Reception Center was; is that correct?
A Correct.
Q for how long — by the way, what port were you in at the time that you arrived aboard the ship?
A Tangiers.
Q And Tours Reception Center was outside of Tangiers; correct?
A Yes.
Q Or within it, a suburb?
A Right.
Q How long did you remain in that port before you moved to Safi?
A We didn’t go from that port to Safi.
Q Where did you go from that port?
A To Casablanca.
THE COURT: As long as we are in Casablanca, we’ll take a 15-minute recess.
(Recess.)
2485
THE COURT: All right, in the case on trial, let the record reflect that we have gotten back from the Casbah. We can resume.
The witness has retaken the stand. State your name again for the record. You are still under oath.
THE WITNESS: Gerald Armstrong.
THE COURT: You say continue, Mr. Harris.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Your Honor.
Q During the summer of 1971 the Apollo generally went between the ports of Safi, Casablanca, Tangiers and Agadir; correct?
A Up to probably the summer, yes.
Q And during that period, of time, while you were aboard, was your job still transport IC and driver
in the summer now we are talking about?
A Yes. During that time I became only the driver and there was another person appointed as the transport in charge.
Q Who was that?
A A man named Ed Hayes.
Q Now after you were just the driver, I take it you didn’t have any duties when the ship was not in
port: right?
A No.
Q What were your duties when the ship was not in port?
A I generally drove the car between ports while the ship sailed.
2486
Q Well, when you left Tangiers to go to Casablanca, did you drive the automobile to Casablanca?
A Yes.
2487
Q And when you left Casablanca to go to the next port which was Safi –
A Yes.
Q — you drove an automobile to Safi?
A Usually that was the case; not always, but usually.
Q And were you alone while driving the car between these various ports?
A Sometimes yes; sometimes no.
Q While going back and forth between these ports, it was generally the case that the ship would only stay in one port about two weeks; right?
A I don’t know what you call “generally the case.”
Q Well, do you have some estimate, having lived aboard and having driven the car from port to port as to how often you did it while the ship was going between Tangiers, Casablanca, Safi and Agadir?
A There were periods of time when we stayed a month or six weeks in a particular port; it depended on the situation.
Q And when you say “it depended on the situation,” did you have any idea at that point what the situation was?
A Yes.
Q Now, I take it when you were aboard the ship you questioned some of the people who had been there longer than you about what life was like prior to your arriving; is that right?
A I had such conversations on occasion.
2488
Q Well, let me ask you this: did you ever talk to Laurel Watson about what it was like when the ship first left Southampton?
A No.
Q Did you have conversations with anybody else about what it was like when the ship first left Southampton?
A I don’t believe so.
Q After you began in this biography project and archives project you discovered that the ship leaving Southampton was an important event in the history of Scientology; isn’t that correct?
A I had heard about it. It did not stick in my mind as a tremendously important event. But it was simply — it was an event which did occur.
Q And you had said you heard about it; had you heard about it before you got into the archives project?
A Yes.
2489
Q And you had heard it from people who were there at the time?
A My best recollection is that I heard about it or I saw written about it. There were articles which were written. I had the log books which went back to — if not that period, then very shortly thereafter around Brest, France.
Q Was your source of knowledge that the ship had left Southampton from the log books only?
A No, there were also — there was a slide show which vas done by a man named Wally Burgess, and he also described — I don’t even recall if he was there, but in any cases he had a set of slides, a basic chronology of the ship, and he described more or less what had happened when the ship left Southampton.
Q This was while you were aboard the ship, sir?
A Yes.
Q And how soon after having come aboard did you see the slide show?
A It was near the end of my time on board.
Q Which would have been in 1975?
A Something like that, I recall there being a slide show. I believe we were in the Caribbean.
Q And that was in the summer of 1975; is that correct?
A We were in the Caribbean from approximately October 1974, if you include Bermuda in the Caribbean,
[missing page 2490] 2491
old timers aboard the ship?
A Yes.
Q Did you learn from these old timers that there had been what was called a land base set up in Alicante, Spain?
A Yes.
Q Now you had no reason to disbelieve this; did you?
A No.
Q And the people with whom you spoke seemed to be telling you the truth: right?
A Yes.
Q Did you find out that the ship had to leave Spain?
A Something to that effect, yes.
Q And did you find out that the ship went to a place called Corfu, Greece?
A Yes.
Q And then this is in coversations with the old timers who were there before you?
A There were a number also of descriptions, Flag orders or Flagship orders which outlined what had happened in Greece.
Q What had happened in Corfu, Greece that you knew at the time that you were aboard the ship?
A That was that the American and British officials had conspired to get the vessel thrown out of Greece.
Q And did you learn from the people aboard
2492
the ship, though not fully founded, had to leave within 24 hours?A I never heard that particular thing, but possibly that was not a particular subject that came up.
2493
Q Did you hear, Mr. Armstrong, that the women and children had to take planes because of fear that the ship would not be seaworthy in 24 hours?
A No, I didn’t hear that.
Q You didn’t hear that?
A No.
Q And you didn’t learn that from the ship’s logs; is that right?
A I never saw that in the ship’s logs.
Q And so as far as you were concerned, when you were aboard the ship in the summer of 1971 the women and children had not had to take planes because the ship was unsafe when ordered out of the port?
A I had never heard that story before this.
Q This is the first time?
A Yes.
Q Now, did you understand from speaking with the old timers aboard the ship, Mr. Armstrong, that in Alicante people were openly Scientologists?
THE COURT: I am not sure I understand what you mean.
Do you mean people aboard the ship, or all over the country, or what?
Q BY MR. HARRIS: There was a land base in Alicante that you knew about; right?
A Yes.
Q And Scientologists were coming in from various places in the world to get auditing and training in Alicante; is that right?
2494
A Yes.
Q And when they would come in and when the people who were giving the auditing and training were asked, they didn’t have a shore story: didn’t you hear that?
A Not specifically. But I understood that they were Scientologists.
Q And were open about being Scientologists; right?
A My understanding, yes.
Q And did you find out from the old timers aboard the ship that in Corfu, Greece, the people were openly Scientologists in the sense that we have used in Alicante?
A I don’t know if that ever came up or not. I don’t know at that time who they were claiming to be.
Q You were not told by any of the old timers that after the order to leave in 24 hours from Corfu, Greece, people no longer used — strike that — people no longer stated openly that they were Scientologists; you didn’t hear that?
A No.
Q But you did know when you came aboard that it was not okay to say that you were a Scientologist; right?
A That is correct.
Q That was this drill that you were doing; right?
A Yes.
Q And, apparently, when you were doing the drill there was no rythm or reason for it in your mind; right?
A No.
Q You did not associate it with religious
2495
persecution, I take it?A No.
Q Did you subsequently discover that the reason that people — now I am talking about subsequently discover while you were aboard the ship in talking to old timers — did you subsequently discover that in fact after Corfu Scientologists couldn’t afford to be openly Scientologists in the Mediterranean?
A No.
Q And as you sit there now do you think that that is true?
A No.
Q It is false?
A Yes.
Q All right. Did you ever talk to Laurel Sullivan about that?
A About what?
Q About the periods of time when she could be openly a Scientologist and the periods of time when she couldn’t?
MR. FLYNN: This is out of Laurel Sullivan’s PC files, Your Honor?
MR. HARRIS: Hardly, Mr. Flynn.
THE COURT: I have no idea. It seems to me rather extraneous whether he talked to her about it or not.
Let’s go ahead.
Q BY MR. HARRIS: At any time while you were aboard the ship, Mr. Armstrong, did you talk with Laurel Sullivan about her experiences prior to your getting aboard?
2496
A I don’t believe so. I may have, but it isn’t a big item.
Q When you say, “it isn’t a big item,” do you mean you don’t recall?
A That is it.
I may have talked, but your question didn’t bring it up.
Q When you say, “didn’t bring it up,” just so I can understand what you are doing here, do you mean you now cannot recall such a conversation?
A Right; nothing comes to my mind.
Q Okay. Now, after you drove the car at various places in Morocco did there come a time when you got promoted to a different job?
A Yes.
Q And what was that job?
A I was the assistant ship’s representative.
Q And the assistant ship’s representative was under the Port Captain; right?
A Yes.
Q and the ship’s representative was under the Port Captain; right?
A Yes.
Q And who was the ship’s rep while you were the assistant ship’s rep?
A Gary Titus.
Q And what month was this in in 1971 that you became an assistant ship’s rep?
2497
A It was February, 1972.
Q So you had been a driver then all through from the time you first got the post of driver all the way through until February, 1972?
A Yes.
Q Now, by that time you had been aboard the ship a year; is that correct?
A Yes.
2498
Q And was your dominant emotion during that year one of fear?
A Yes.
Q And you wanted to do well in the Sea Org; is that right, Mr. Armstrong?
A Yes.
Q Was the policy aboard the ship that you were supposed to study or receive auditing 2 1/2 hours a day?
A By “policy” what do you mean?
Q Was it one of the rules, so to speak, of the ship that the people aboard the ship who were Sea Org people were to supposed to get 2 1/2 hours a day of training or auditing?
A That was one of the things which people were supposed to receive.
Q Well, let me ask you this: Did you receive 2 1/2 hours per day of auditing or training during the first year that you were aboard the ship?
A No.
Q How many hours would you say during that year of auditing or training did you receive; best estimate?
THE COURT: By training, you don’t mean like being trained how to chip paint or to work in the kitchen or anything like that?
MR. HARRIS: No, I will withdraw the question and see if I can straighten it out.
Q The training aboard the ship included training in a post; right?
2499
A Yes.
Q And the training aboard the ship included training in how to audit people; right?
A Those who did that, did it.
Q You mean those who chose to learn how to become auditors, did so?
A No. You didn’t choose what you did aboard the ship.
Q You had no freedom of choice aboard the ship; is that what yon are telling us, Mr. Armstrong?
A Virtually none.
Q Well when you say virtually none, you mean there was some small area where you had some freedom?
A Yes.
Q Let me ask you this: Did you during the first year receive a direct order of any sort from L. Ron Hubbard personally?
A Yes.
Q And when was that?
A In approximately April 1971.
Q That is just a short time after you had arrived aboard the ship?
A That is correct.
Q Couple of months after you had arrived aboard the ship; right?
A Yes.
Q Did you receive orders from people that you recognized as seniors during that period of time that –
2500
that we are talking about other than L. Ron Hubbard?A Yes.
Q And when you were Transport IC, you had a senior who was above you; right?
A Yes.
Q And that person would give you orders; right?
A Yes.
Q And you knew, did you not, that there was a senior above him; right?
A Yes.
Q In fact, during all this time that you have been in Scientology, you understand it to be hierarchal; that is, that there are higher and higher posts that have the ability to order lower posts; right?
A More or less, yes.
Q And at the time when you received this order directly from L. Ron Hubbard, was it a verbal order?
A Written order.
Q And what was that written order, sir?
A It had to do with taking Mr. Hubbard’s cars. There vas two cars, a landrover and smaller car, a Morris Mini, and then taking them all ashore, housing them in the area called TRC.
Q That is Tours Receptionist Center?
A Yes. I am not sure we called it that in the beginning. That was a name which I believe was added some time later, but in any case there were a number of garages or spaces in this complex and I was ordered to
2501
take Mr. Hubbard’s cars off ship and drive them to that location, house them and I also was to get each one of them serviced which I did.2502
Q And this order from Mr. Hubbard that did not go through you were senior aboard the ship?
A My recollection is that it came directly from a messenger from Mr. Hubbard. And — because I complied with that and I sent up a compliance report regarding what I had done at that time, the work that I had done to his Land Rover which needed some work and that the vehicles had been taken and stored.
Q All right. The rest of the time within that year, your orders, if any, came from seniors; not L. Ron Hubbard?
A I’m not sure if I got any more direct orders to handle particular things.
Q You said you received one order; do you now have some doubts about that, that there may have been more?
A Yes. There may have been more.
Q But you don’t recall it at this time?
A That is correct.
Q Did you train to be an auditor aboard the ship during that one year period from February, 1971 to February 1972?
A No.
Q Did you receive auditing while you were aboard the ship in that first year from 1971 to 1972?
A I probably did initially upon coming aboard; probably got a Sec Check.
Q When you say “probably,” are you speculating now, or are you now recalling something?
2503
A Well, I had a lot of Sec Checks throughout the whole history on board and thereafter. So they were given with quite a lot of frequency.
So you have my PC folder and you know.
But my — my best recollection is I received shortly after coming on board Sec Check and then sometime during that year I got some auditing and principally word clearing.
Q Now, you say, Mr. Armstrong, that I have your PC folder; you don’t have an iota of information that I have your PC folder, do you? Yes or no.
MR. FLYNN: Objection, Your Honor.
What type of information is Mr. Harris referring to, policy, the way things are normally done?
MR. HARRIS: I am asking the witness. He gratuitously offered that I have his PC folder.
Your Honor, I want to find out whether he has one iota of information that I, Robert Harris, have your PC folder, Mr. Armstrong.
Q Do you? Yes or no.
A I know that it is the policy of the organization to feed information to their attorneys, information which is contained in what they call confidential auditing or ethics files. It has happened with another attorney in this case. I am simply saying you have access to it.
Q Per policy; is that correct, Mr. Armstrong?
A Per policy.
Q Do you have any fact at your disposal,
2504
Mr. Armstrong, that I have your PC folder? Yes or no.A Not you personally at this instance.
Q Now, the Sec Checking that you probably had the first time that you were aboard the ship, do you now recall that you actually had a Sec Check aboard the ship when you first arrived?
A I don’t recall the date and I don’t recall exactly how long thereafter. But I do recall shortly after coming on board getting a Sec Check.
Q And a Sec Check is not auditing; isn’t that right, Mr. Armstrong?
A When I came on board there was no representation to me nor at any time prior to that that Sec Checks were not auditing.
You were not told by the auditor, “this is not a session; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Were you told that you were receiving auditing when you received a Sec Check, Mr. Armstrong?
A That is correct.
Q And now that you are recalling receiving a Sec Check aboard the ship near the time that you came aboard, please, tell me, who was the Sec Checker?
A My best recollection it was a woman. And she was an older woman and I don’t recall her name.
2505
Q During the first year when you received something other than Sec Checking which you call auditing, who was your auditor?
A One was Cathy Cariotaki.
Q Any more?
A Jeff Walker.
Q Who else?
A Those are the names that I recall.
Q Now, did there come a period while you were aboard the ship that it remained at sea for some three months?
A No.
Q What is the longest that you recall the ship remaining at sea while you ware aboard without pulling into port?
A Three days.
Q And that was during the whole time you were aboard the ship up to ‘75 or were you talking about the first year?
A When you say when I was on board the ship, are you considering that whole period that I was on board the ship?
Q Well, let’s go back to the first year.
That is from February 1971 to February 1972, three days was the longest you recall being at sea?
A That would have been, I believe, 1974.
Q All right. Back to the first year. Longest that you recall being at sea?
2506
A Some time over a day.
Q All right. The assistant ship’s rep had the responsibility of assuring a safe port where the ship was next to go; isn’t that right?
A No.
Q Did the ship’s rep have that responsibility?
A No.
Q Did the port captain have that responsibility?
A Perhaps.
Q Did there come a time when you were placed on missions to assure that a port was safe for the ship?
A Yes.
Q And what years were those?
A 1974.
Q And what was your post at that time?
A Missionaire.
Q Was there any post other than missionaire that you held at the same time?
A No.
Q How many such missions to assure safe ports did you accomplish during the time you were aboard the ship?
A What do you mean by “accomplish”?
Q Go to the port, assure that it is safe, come back to the ship and tell the captain, “It is safe to go into this port.”
That is what I mean by accomplish, Mr. Armstrong.
A I never did that.
2507
Q Never?
A No.
Q How many missions did you go on to assure that there were safe ports for the Apollo?
A I believe six.
Q And this was all in the year 1974?
A I believe so.
Q Were you aboard the ship in Funchal, Madeira when a mob attacked it?
A No.
Q Where were you at the time?
A In Lisbon.
Q You subsequently heard about it from the people aboard; right?
A I heard about it in Lisbon.
Q You were at a relay point in Lisbon at that time?
A I was on a mission in Lisbon at the time. I was called the relay point.
Q And there were you told about a mob attacking the ship; is that correct?
A Something to that effect.
Q And what year was that?
A 1974.
Q 1974 or 1973, Mr. Armstrong?
A 1974.
Q Did you learn after that event of people being injured aboard the ship?
2508
A I heard that.
Q Did you hear about the mopeds that you had resposibility for in an earlier time being thrown off the ship by the mob?
A No.
Q Let me ask you this, Mr. Armstrong. You, yourself, encountered some authorities in Madrid at one point and were detained; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And you were accused of using drugs; right?
A Something like that.
2509
Q And something like them; right?
A Something like that, yes.
Q Which was untrue; right?
A Yes.
Q And you were asked questions by an American interrogator in — excuse me — in Madrid; right?
A I don’t know that to be true.
Q Well, you know, do you not, that you were detained for some period of time by the Spanish police?
A Yes.
Q And you know that there was a person that you later identified as an American who was interrogating you?
A If in any declaration it was stated that he was an American, those are not my words.
Q You never told anyone that the person who interrogated you was an American; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q For how long were you detained?
A Several hours.
Q Were you asked questions about Scientology?
A I possibly was, yes.
Q Were you asked questions about the ship Apollo?
A Yes.
Q And when you were there, that is, under detention, you with somebody else?
A Yes.
Q Who was that?
A Michael Douglas.
2510
Q And had there been an earlier incident where members of the Apollo had been arrested and interrogated about Scientology that you knew about?
MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I object on the grounds of relevance.
This theory, assuming that this line of attack is to show that this organization has been religiously persecuted to justify lying about the shore stories and the OTC, whatever, it would open up an avenue of evidence of all the wrongdoing and criminality by this organization and government inquiries all over the world of their criminality; theoretically, for me to show that they have not been persecuted, but have been out committing so many crimes that the various governmental entities were trying to observe them.
I object on the ground of relevance to this whole area. I think it brings to the whole area of the lawsuit something that could keep us here for weeks.
THE COURT: I don’t propose to stay here for weeks on this case.
MR. HARRIS: I don’t propose to stay here for weeks, asking questions about this, Your Honor. But the witness has opened up various areas in his direct examination. His lawyer, Mr. Flynn has opened up various areas.
THE COURT: We are not going to get involved in a dispute as to whether or not the country of Spain was acting legally or on what basis they were acting.
I’ll permit you to do this in a general way,
2511
but if you are going to look here and look at a microscope of every year, all you are doing is convincing me that this man has a fabulous memory.MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, that is fine if you are convinced of that.
The only thing I want to do is the witness has a particular state of mind. And that state of mind has come into issue in this case greatly and particularly the time aboard the ship when he supposedly learns all of these things that he has talked about.
Mr. Flynn has attacked auditing: he has gotten through his witness that PC folders are culled and people are blackmailed and all manner of things.
Your Honor, it seems that I ought to be allowed a bit more latitude, at least, until 4 o’clock to talk about the things that happened to this person aboard the ship.
THE COURT: You have got 18 minutes.
Go ahead.
Q BY MR. HARRIS: Now, in your direct testimony, Mr. Armstrong, you stated that when you were the ship’s representative you saw packs of PR documents; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And whee was the ship’s rep officed aboard the Apollo?
A Do you mean where exactly on board?
Q Yes; where exactly on board, Mr. Armstrong.
A Are you talking about physically, not organization
2512
command-line wise?Q No; physically.
A Okay. The ship’s rep’s office was located on the starboard ‘tween decks about amidships.
Q And the Port Captain’s office was next door to that?
A They were within one space, yes.
2513
Q And these packs that were in this space, roughly amidships, between decks, hat packs of materials that you would read for your job as ship’s rep?
A I am not following what you are talking about now.
Q Well I take it you did read some packs in this space that was called the ship’s rep’s office; right?
A Earlier you referred to PR packs; is that what you are again referring to?
A Well, were there more than PR packs within the ship’s rep’s office, sir?
A There was a hat pack.
Q For ship’s rep?
A Yes.
Q And there were other packs; right?
A There were the packs which we gave out to the local people and authorities.
Q PR packs would you call those?
A Yes.
Q And the packs that you gave out to the local people contained information about Operation Transport Corporation; right, yes or no?
A Yes.
Q Were there packs other than the hat pack and the PR pack that you gave to port officials within that space?
A There were briefing packs.
Q And the briefing packs were PR packs; would
2514
you call them that?A They were not the thing which you would give out to the local authorities.
Q They were internal PR packs?
A Basically, yes.
Q And these are the packs that you studied while you were the ship’s rep; right?
A I studied the ship’s rep hat. I studied various polices.
Q The ship’s rep hat had a check sheet; right?
A Yes.
Q Did you fill out such a check sheet?
A Yes.
Q And on that one you initialed rather than somebody else; right?
A Yes.
Q And did you complete the check sheet?
A I don’t recall if I did or not. I probably did.
Q And when yon were port captain in 1974, did you fill out a check sheet for a hat?
A I don’t believe so.
Q Now the hat contained policy letters; correct?
A There probably was a couple of policy letters at the beginning of the pack. The majority of the pack was OODS items. That is orders of the day items or Flagship orders, Flag orders and that sort of thing.
2515
MR. HARRIS: I have a document entitled “Sea Organization Flag Order 3395?; Your Honor, may this be marked plaintiff’s 39 for identification?
THE COURT: Yes; 39 for identification.
Q BY MR. HARRIS: Showing you exhibit No. 39, Mr. Armstrong, do you recognize that?
A Yes.
Q Was that Flag order in your hat pack as the ship’s rep?
A Well, not initially, certainly.
Q Well, initially you had the post of ship’s rep earlier than 27 October, 1973; right?
A Yes.
Q However, the reference under “regulations and laws obedience 2? is an earlier Flag order: right?
A Yes.
Q Did you see an earlier Flag order similar to Flag order 3395, exhibit 39 in your hat pack?
A There was something to this effect. I don’t know if — I probably would have added this in October, 1973.
Q And removed Flag order 738; right?
A And removed it?
Q Yes.
A I don’t understand why I would do that.
Q Well, this Flag order, that is, exhibit 39 replaced an earlier one; right?
A I don’t know where you got that.
Q Why don’t you look right under “obedience 2?;
2516
do you see that?A Yes,
Q That says “referenced,” not “replaced.”
Q So you would have kept the earlier Flag order as well as this one in the bat pack; right?
A I don’t have the earlier one to look at, but I would assume that at that time the earlier one would have existed in the hat pack and then this one would have been added.
Q Now, do you have a recollection of adding this, that is, exhibit 39 to your ship’s rep hat pack?
A No.
Q Do you recall this exhibit 39 at all?
A I recall something like this. And it could have been it.
Q The orders of the day were also included in the hat pack, sir, ship’s rep hat pack?
A When you say “the order of the day,” what do you mean?
Q Flag orders of the day relating to your post.
A Yes.
Q Now, other than the hat pack and the briefing that you gave to port officials, did you do some other pack in your ship’s rep position?
A I don’t recall another pack right now, but maybe you know of something.
2517
Q Do you recall doing any other check sheets for packs in the ship’s rep office there?
A There probably was what is called an instant hat which is a shorter version of the overall hat. There may be more and you might know something that I don’t recall now, so I am not properly answering you, but that is what I recall right now.
Q In your port captain job, did you have a hat which you had a check sheet to?
A We are not talking now about the ship’s rep?
Q Well you have told me, as I understand, there may be some mini hats that you did, but you don’t recall anything other than the ship’s rep hat as far as the ship’s rep post; is that correct?
A Right, yes.
Q When you were in the post of the port captain, did you fill out a check sheet for a hat which was the port captain hat?
A I may have started one. I doubt if I completed it. I was not on post very long.
Q How long were you on post, Mr. Armstrong?
A A relatively short amount of time. I couldn’t tell you if it was two weeks or a month, but it was quite brief.
Q You were, as they say, busted from that post; right?
A Probably was.
2318
Q And therefore you wouldn’t have had a chance to complete the check sheet for the hat?
A That’s correct.
Q Now, what you remember completing, do you recall anything that you initialed which told you to do anything illegal?
MR. FLYNN: Just restricting it to the — mini hat, incidentally, is m-i-n-i.
THE WITNESS: Right.
MR. FLYNN: Just restricting it to this mini hat?
MR. HARRIS: No, Mr. Flynn. We were talking about the port captain’s hat that he was on post for two weeks. He started the hat.
MR. FLYNN: We are restricting it to that?
MR. HARRIS: Yes.
THE COURT: This is a little iffy. I don’t know what you mean by illegal because I assume this is in some port and we are not subject to the laws of the United States or California.
Does the witness know what the laws of Morocco are or — transporting narcotics is probably against the law wherever you go.
MR. HARRIS: I suspect so.
Q That you perceived at the time as being illegal, whether right or wrong?
A No. At that time I would have thought that killing someone for Mr. Hubbard was legal, but as far as an actual point where I knew that I was breaking the law, yes.
2519
Q And as far as actual points where you knew you were breaking the law, what did you say?
A Yes.
Q There was something in the Port Captain’s hat pack that you initialed on the check sheet as having read which told you to do something illegal; is that what you are saying?
A If the Port Captain’s hat pack contained all the information in the ship’s rep hat pack relative to our being a yacht and so on, then ft contained a direction to do something illegal, yes.
Q Do you recall that direction in either the ship’s rep hat or the Port Captain’s hat?
A There were either Flag ship orders or Flag orders on the subject of the vessel being a yacht and how we had to get around safety of life at sea requirements by having everyone sign the crew list when they were not in fact crew.
Q Well, when you, “they were not in fact crew,” isn’t it the case, sir, that everyone that came aboard the ship became a crew member in fact?
A When you say “in fact,” by virtue –
Q Yes; they had a post that involved the running of the ship?
A No.
Q Just so I can clear this up for sure now, you say in one of those packs the check sheets of which you initialed, there would have been something about avoiding the safety at sea certificate laws; is that correct?
2520
A It would not have said it like that. It would have said why we do what we do.
Q And this would have been something that you read at the time?
A Yes.
Q All right.
Your Honor, I’m going on to another area; could we break?
THE COURT: We’ll recess at this time. We can reconvene Monday morning. That will be 9:30 on Monday morning.
MR. FLYNN: Could I get an idea of how long cross might go from here?
MR. HARRIS: Less than 10 days, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I know that.
Can you give us a ball park figure of what you estimate, counsel?
MR. HARRIS: At this point, probably three days maximum.
THE COURT: We’ll see what happens.
We’ll recess until Monday.
(At 3:55 p.m., an adjournment was taken until Monday, May 21, 1934; at 9:30 a.m.)
