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From: Gerry Armstrong <gerry @gerryarmstrong.org>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: An open letter to Gerry Armstrong

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:19:20 +0100
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On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 06:38:54 -0600 (CST), boobootigger@webtv.net
(Tigger) wrote:

>Gerry Armstrong says:
>
>(snip)
>
>Unless someone has a lot of time to waste, likes hitting his/her head
>against a stone wall, has the patience of a saint, believes in
>miracles, etc............IMO it would be a waste of time, to engage in a
>"debate" with Gerry Armstrong who (if his recent " debates" are an
>indication) has confused "debate" with "diatribe".
>
>Tigger

The only " recent "debates"" I've been involved in that I know of are
my proposed debate and effort to establish terms and conditions for a
debate in my post that Tigger snipped, and my effort to debate a
Scientology cult employee that I mentioned in my recent report from
Russia.

Here's what Tigger snipped:

[Quote]

Clearly this issue is very important for you, and I hope it will
continue to be so that we can actually and rationally discuss the
facts, opinions and other factors which form the issue.

I have very little time over the next few days, but I will continue to
engage in a dialogue, or debate, or actual, rational discussion if you
are willing.

You ask a number of questions, which are obvious insults: e.g.,
"Do you believe that you are automatically right about everything? "
"Do you believe that people can honestly disagree with you, that they
can have an honest belief that you have got something wrong?" " Do you
believe that anyone has a right to question you?"

Just so we start off civilly, you do acknowledge that these are
insults, right?

In one of your follow-up posts you state:

[Quote]

And does being a "fair game victim" make one immune to all criticism,
or exempted from the need to be fair, honest and accurate? This claim
particularly annoys me.

[End Quote]
Message-ID: <f758becc.0212161624.28d8e938@posting.google.com>

Will you please identify who is making this claim which is annoying
you.

I am not making the claim, and have never made the claim. If you are
trying to insult me because you're annoyed based on your erroneous
belief that I'm making this annoying claim, please re-examine this
belief, or reread whatever you thought contained this "claim."

In the same post you state:

[Quote]

Gerry is simply finding patterns that don't exist.
He has failed to come up with any evidence for his claim other than
"they criticise me, OSA criticises me, therefore they work for OSA".
That is all that his argument boils down to.

[End Quote]

For us to have a real discussion or debate of the issue, it would be
helpful, I think, to clarify a couple of basic points. Since you state
as fact that I have failed to come up with any evidence for my claim
(that certain people forward Scientology's fair game purposes with
their attacks on the cult's fair game victims), this is also an
acknowledgement that you have read all my posts, and that you have
read all the posts I've webbed. Is this correct?

You have put this phrase in quotes, which implies that I wrote it:

[Quote]

"they criticise me, OSA criticises me, therefore they work for OSA".

[End Quote]

I never wrote this statement you attribute to me. Is that correct?

When you state that I am "finding patterns that don't exist" you know
you cannot honestly state that, right?

You can honestly state that you have not found any pattern, if you
have not found any pattern. Isn't that true?

And you can honestly state that there may be no pattern, since you've
found none, right?

And you can honestly state that it appears to you that Gerry believes
he has found a pattern, but that you have not found one yourself,
right?

But you cannot honestly state that I am "finding patterns that don't
exist," don't you agree?

You use the term "criticize" apparently to include everything
OSA/Scientology has done to me and every statement made by every
person whose posts I've webbed on the GOoN sQUaD FOLLIES page.
Presumably your definition for "criticize" includes lying, black
propaganda and other forms of fair game. This would mean that
"depopularizing the enemy to a point of total obliteration" is just a
form of "criticism." Is this correct?

I think it is important that we agree on this term " criticize" because
it is key to your criticizing me, and key to our discussion or debate.

Finally, to start our discussion or debate, I would like to get from
you exactly what you believe the relevant difference is between my
webbing of the subject posts and the posters posting them to this
newsgroup to begin with.

If, for example, ptsc or Tigger or Diane stated in a post that I'm
doing OSA's work, would you write them an open letter? Have you
written other open letters when someone else stated that someone is
helping OSA by doing something?

Do you believe that there is some difference which makes websites more
holy or less holy than usenet posts, and if so, what? And do you
believe that I am more deserving of your criticism than all of the
usenet posters whose posts I've webbed?

I look forward to your response to my concerns I've expressed here and
to a future excellent discussion or debate.

Gerry

[End Quote]
Message-ID: <7d5b0vc62lg1i1g2kqngquepi2pj6efqu8@4ax.com>

Here's my recent report from Russia, wherein I mention a debate:

[Quote]

We'd been invited to Ekaterinburg
http://www.ur.ru/~sg/Ekaterinburg.html by Archbishop Vincent of the
Ekatrinburg Diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church to participate in a
three-day conference on dangerous cults sponsored by the Church, with
the blessing of Alexey II, Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia
http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/pa2_e.htm, and by the
Government of the Urals Federal District.

There were a few over three hundred attendees at the conference, which
took place in an auditorium of the Urals Academy of State Service, and
perhaps thirty people presented papers on various sociological,
psychological or theological topics relating to cults. I gave a talk
in three parts on Scientology, which was translated into Russian as I
spoke by Professor Alexander Dvorkin http://iriney.vinchi.ru/ .
Professor Dvorkin is an internationally recognized cult expert, and
the author of the book Sectology now in its third printing.
Scientology's internationally recognized hate site on Professor
Dvorkin is here:
http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/extremists/dvorkin1.html. The
text of all the conference papers will be published in book form in
the next months.

The conference was opened by Archbishop Vincent, Bishop Ioann (John)
Chairman of the Missionary Department of the ROC and Bishop of
Belgorod, and the First Deputy to the Presidential Plenipotentiary in
the Urals. (I believe he was identified as Sergei Vakhrukov.) A
number of TV and print media personnel attended, and at the end of the
first morning session we had a press conference in a separate meeting
room in the Academy with several TV stations participating.

In the afternoon, a group of twelve of us, including both bishops, had
a very positive meeting with the Presidential Plenipotentiary in the
Urals Federal District Pyotr Latyshev.
http://www.bisnis.doc.gov/bisnis/country/021028UralsContacts.htm I
had the opportunity to tell him about my personal experiences and
knowledge of Scientology. He seemed genuinely interested in the
cult's intelligence structure and activities, which is quite
understandable because he was, I believe, a general in the Russian
army before being appointed as President Putin's Representative in the
Urals.

After giving one part of my conference talk, a young woman, who was
not part of the program, walked onto the stage, up to the podium and
began to mouth some promo for Scientology. She was ushered away from
the podium and out into the hallway, where I spoke to her and proposed
that we have a debate, which she accepted.

The room in the Academy where we had earlier held the press conference
was quickly commandeered and a video camera set up by the Novosibirsk
conference contingent to record the debate. Just having a debate was
a "big win" for me, because, despite my many requests over two
decades, all organization Scientologists had previously refused to
debate me, or even communicate sociably.

The young woman, who gave her first name as Maria, but whose family
name I didn't get, said that she is an employee of the cult in
Ekaterinburg, and has been a Scientologist for five years. As it
turned out, she really didn't want to debate Scientology, but wanted
only to give her commercial for the cult. Nevertheless, I had the
opportunity to tell her some of my experiences and ask her some
questions to attempt to get her to discuss wogs' concerns about
Scientology.

It is always disconcerting to Scientologists like Maria, who are kept
ignorant about their cult's actual antisocial goals and practices, to
learn that they are "beneficiaries" of the "contract" by which
Scientology seeks to suppress my basic human rights
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50k/legal/a1/625.php,
and of the judgment "enforcing" the "contract."
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/legal/a4/judgment-csi-v- armstrong.html.
It's always eye-opening for them to realize that they are in fact
bound by contract to be one of the suppressive persons they've been
indoctrinated to hate. Maria's only audible response, however, was to
say that she couldn't say anything until she had seen the documents I
was referring to. She said she couldn't comment on, or even envision
being in violation of her cult's "creed" by trying to have me jailed
for speaking unless she had seen the documents. The professed
inability to consider simple, logical hypotheticals "without seeing
the documents" is a common Scientology dodge.

I think our " debate," which Alexander Dvorkin also translated, was a
success, because I was able to communicate to Maria the fact, with
lots of examples, that Hubbard was a pathological liar, to urge her to
read whatever literature she could find that is critical of Hubbard
and Scientology, and to search the Internet for materials which show
her cult's dark side. I suggested that she ask her organization
seniors about Hubbard's lies and about critical materials she
discovered, to watch carefully their responses to her questions, and
to decide if she wanted to be part of an organization that responded
to questions or criticisms in that manner. I offered myself, as
someone who had done OT III and had over a thousand hours of auditing,
as living proof that Scientology does not work. She thanked me, and
also invited me, and the people who watched our debate to visit the
Ekaterinburg Scientology center.

Over the next two days of the conference, in addition to presenting
the second and third parts of my paper, I participated in a flurry of
media engagements. We had a second press conference in the
Ekaterinburg Media Center building, with nine television channels (or
at least cameras) present and several newspaper representatives.
Right after the press conference I gave two additional interviews to
TV journalists. At a separate TV station, I did an interview for a
half-hour show, which will also include talks with Professor Dvorkin
and Novosibirsk Archpriest Alexander Novopashin. See photos from 2001
conference in Nizhny-Novgorod at http://cisar.org/russia/010502a.htm.
And I did a talk-format show, with Professor Dvorkin participating and
translating, which will be televised around Christmas.

On December 12, the twenty-first anniversary of my escape from the
Scientology cult, I celebrated by accepting Maria's invitation and
visiting the Ekaterinburg Scientology office, along with local priests
Father Vladimir and Father Nikita, Professor Dvorkin, Pastor Thomas
Gandow, and two television station crews. I didn't go inside the
cult's office, because the large Scientologist blocking the entrance
wouldn't specifically invite me in, but all the others entered and
engaged the Scientologists in dueling videocams, and even some
precious dialogue.

The Scientologists were apparently giving visitors to their center
black PR documents on their designated enemies, including Professor
Dvorkin and me, and it was reported that they sent to Ekaterinburg
officials an accompanying letter similar to their 2001 black PR letter
to Nizhny-Novgorod officials.
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/osa-ltr-fsb-2001-04-20a.html
Someone inside the cult office gave me some of their documents on me,
but not a full set, part of which I have webbed at
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/index.html#russia2002

At one point, the large Scientologist grabbed Dvorkin in a sort of
Russian bear hug, and someone else called the police. Two officers
arrived and took a number of statements. During our hour or so visit,
I engaged the Scientologist man-handler in a discussion about
Hubbard's lies and Scientology's unworkability, had similar
conversations with a number of people who arrived to do courses or
something, and gave interviews to the two TV crews. That evening, our
twenty-first anniversary visit to Scientology was top news on both
channels.

Pastor Gandow and I also gave a talk to a class of sixty university
theology students, and then had a question and answer period with
them. Answering live and real questions is more stimulating and
enjoyable to me than simply delivering a prepared talk, and these
students were very interested in the subject, and quite spirited. A
number of them had also attended the conference at the Academy of
State Service, so already knew us to some extent, and if time had
allowed would have kept us talking for hours.

Our final work day in the Urals, we traveled to Asbest, at the
invitation of the Orthodox Church Parish, to give a talk in the city's
Cultural Center to about one hundred fifty people. Asbest, named
after the nasty mineral, which is still mined there, is perhaps a
hundred kilometers northeast of Ekaterinburg, a little deeper into
Asia.
http://www.eurasia.org/VirtualLibrary/Eurasia% 20News/Spring2001/asbest.html
http://www.therussiajournal.com/index.htm?obj=3499 A number of the
attendees, which included at least two local government
representatives, also asked excellent questions, and clearly grasped
the danger of certain cults. One of the representatives expressed the
observation that the people in his country had for seventy years been
suppressed by a cult which became the government.

Thomas is an excellent speaker, who sincerely cares for people, and
engages his audiences with wit and wisdom. He had the disadvantage in
Russia of not being a native English speaker, and our translator
Professor Dvorkin not speaking German. Nevertheless, Thomas's English
rose to the occasion through all of his talks on a number of topics,
and in all his many conversations with our Russian hosts, friends and
acquaintances. He is also a great traveling companion who has cared
for me like an older brother (two months), and shared countless laughs
with me, in many miles of European, and now Asian, adventures.

The weather was absolutely wonderful throughout the whole trip.
During a couple of days in Ekaterinburg the temperature reached the
holy number, the point where Celsius and Fahrenheit cross, -40°. We
traveled everywhere between airport, hotel, conference, meetings and
meals by vans, the insides of which never really got warm, and the
windows of which never defrosted. We got everywhere safely and on
time, however, and I'm deeply grateful to our various drivers and the
good people who organized everything.

With the frosted windows, the prohibitive sightseeing temperatures,
and our tight schedules, we got in almost no city tourist action. But
we visited some beautiful churches, and I couldn't help but fall in
love with the place and the people. There were some wide streets that
were lined with long, solid five-story buildings, which must have been
the height of elegance a hundred years ago, and the snow, and the
cold, and the Russians in great coats and fur hats, and the street
cars, had me many times mouth-tromboning Lara's Theme. I don't think
Ekaterinburg figured in Doctor Zhivago, but it figured in the
Communist Revolution because that is where Tzar Nicholas II and his
family were murdered on July 17, 1918.

The conference was during the Russian Orthodox Church's Christmas
Lent, so our meals were prepared according to their Lent traditions
and rules. The Orthodox Russians eat no meat, eggs or dairy products
during this time, which, as it turned out for me, was very healthy and
enjoyable. They eat fish during the Christmas Lent, and there is no
proscription of vodka, or wine, or beer, since they contain no meat or
dairy, so, as I said, it was healthy and enjoyable. Marvelous feasts
of fish and other Lenten delicacies were served to the conference
participants at an Ekaterinburg convent, the name of which I don't
have. I must get the name and address to thank the Sisters, who cared
for and nourished us all in such a loving and splendid way.

Some of us also were feasted at times at Ekaterinburg's Elevation of
the Cross Monastery, a simple place, which had been neglected and
abused during the Communist era, and which is now being restored, as
resources permit. The young abbot Brother Flavian is a kind soul who
welcomed us, even into his cell where we shared Lenten food and drink.
In Asbest, we shared an evening meal with the rector, Father Paul, and
his assistant, Father Oleg. I got the idea that we conference
foreigners were being treated to a more sumptuous fare than the nuns
at the convent, the monks at the monastery and the priests at their
churches were giving themselves, but I don't think they would have
admitted it even if I had asked.

I am very thankful for the stand the Russian Orthodox Church has
taken, as a body, to expose and oppose dangerous, totalitarian cults
like Scientology. It is disappointing that the religions and churches
of North America and Western Europe, with all their advantages and
resources, have not had the courage, as organizations or bodies of
believers, to embrace this psychowar. The Orthodox Church survived
tremendous persecution for seventy years, and has earned its country's
respect. Last year in Nizhny-Novgorod and Moscow I got a crash course
in Orthodox iconography, and this year in Ekaterinburg I had an
intensive of Orthodox humanity.

Just a final word of thanks to all who participated in the
Ekaterinburg conference and the associated events, and to mention a
few of these fine people. Alexander Dvorkin (Sasha), a Russian
treasure whose blessed work against the dangerous cults is done on
less than a shoestring, and who needs our support. Deacon Michael,
Professor Dvorkin's assistant, who puts his life into this work. Yuri
Kondratiev from St. Petersburg, who was taught English by the Mormons,
and did hours of translating for me of the Russian conference
speakers. Father Vladimir and Father Nikita, who organized and
chaired the conference, and arranged the anniversary visit with the
Scientologists. Father Alexander Novopashin, who added a Russian
"Cultbusters" T-Shirt to my collection, and made me just plain happy.
And Deacon Andrey Kurayev, who made me happy to be just plain.
http://www.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/kuraev0412.html

Well we said our dasvedanyas and flew from Ekaterinburg with Urals
Airlines to some well deserved R & R in balmy Moscow, where the
temperature never dipped below -20° C. Then, well rested and
healthily Lented, we flew back to Berlin, as I mentioned, from Russia
with Aeroflot.

See photos at http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/media/russia/

© Gerry Armstrong
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org

[End Quote]
Message-ID: <ajc40vofb3vn98uo4vck2m819iaki669aa@4ax.com>

The only other post I've made in the recent past (two weeks) concerns
recent black PR from OSA UK. The post contains no mention of a
debate, although I would enjoy debating cult agent Graeme Wilson about
his black PR.

[Quote]

Here's a letter dated December 10, 2002 from Scientology cult OSA
agent Graeme Wilson to Mike Garde, who runs Dialogue Ireland.
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/osa-ltr-dialogue-ireland- 2002.html

Here are a couple of urls re Mike Garde
http://www.esatclear.ie/~dialogueireland/intro.htm
http://www.tolc.org/watchdog.htm

Attached to Wilson's letter is an OSA attack on the 1984 Latey
decision in the High Court in London, with a section of Scientology's
standard lies and black propaganda about me:
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/latey-decision-black-pr.html

© Gerry Armstrong
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org

[End Quote]
Message-ID: <79i80vog10v98dv437r8ef55ubm5nqoh4i@4ax.com>

Therefore it can be reasonably concluded that Tigger's assertion that
based on my "recent "debates"" I have "confused "debate" with
"diatribe"" is a lie.

It is observed that Tigger acts like OSA's agents in refusing to
actually and rationally enter into debates, and here even black PRs
the idea of a debate. It's part of the pattern.

© Gerry Armstrong
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org

 

 
 

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