§  What's New  ||  Search   ||  Legal Archive  ||  Wog Media  ||  Cult Media  ||  CoW ® ||  Writings  ||  Fun  ||  Disclaimer  ||  Contact  §
 

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 
SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

— — —

RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER,
A California Non-Profit Religious
Corporation; CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY )
INTERNATIONAL, A California
Non-Profit Religious Corporation;
And CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF j
CALIFORNIA, A California Non-Profit)
Religious Corporation,

Plaintiffs,

vs.


JOSEPH A. YANNY, an individual, and
JOSEPH A. YANNY, a Professional Law
Corporation,

Defendants.

 )
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
 No. BC 033035

VOLUME 2

DEPOSITION OF

GERALD ARMSTRONG

SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA

February 6, 1992

 

ATKINSON-BAKER AND ASSOCIATES, INC.
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
1612 West Olive Avenue, Suite 203
Burbank, California 91506
(818) 566-8840

 

REPORTED BY: SHEENAGH M. CARLSON, CSR NO. 8350

FILE NO.: 92-01132

 
232

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15
SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

— — —

RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER,
A California Non-Profit Religious
Corporation; CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY )
INTERNATIONAL, A California
Non-Profit Religious Corporation;
And CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF j
CALIFORNIA, A California Non-Profit)
Religious Corporation,

Plaintiffs,

vs.


JOSEPH A. YANNY, an individual, and
JOSEPH A. YANNY, a Professional Law
Corporation,

Defendants.

 )
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
 No. BC 033035

 

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

 

 

 

 

Deposition of Gerald Armstrong, taken on

behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 601 California Street,

Suite 1900, San Francisco, California, commencing at

10:00 a.m., Thursday, February 6, 1992, before

Sheenagh M. Carlson, CSR #8350.
 
233

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

A P P E A R A N C E S

 

 

FOR THE PLAINTIFF
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA:
BOWLES & MOXON
BY: KENDRICK L. MOXON, ESQ
6255 Sunset Boulevard
Suite 2000
Hollywood, California 90028

FOR THE DEFENDANT:
LEWIS, D'AMATO, BRISBOIS & BISGAARD
BY: GRAHAM E. BERRY, ESQ.
221 North Figueroa Street
Suite 1200
Los Angeles, California 90012

FOR THE WITNESS:
FORD GREENE
Attorney at Law
711 Sir Francis Drake Blvd.
San Anselmo, California 94960-1949

Also Present: Laurie J. Bartilson, Esq.

Matt Ward, Paralegal

 
 
234

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

I N D E X

WITNESS: GERALD ARMSTRONG

EXAMINATION

BY MR. MOXON

PAGE

235

 

EXHIBITS:

NUMBER

 

PLAINTIFFS'
DESCRIPTION

(None marked)

 

PAGE
INFORMATION TO BE SUPPLIED:

 

(None)

  

 

 

 

 
235

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 
GERALD ARMSTRONG,

having been duly sworn, was

examined and testified as follows:

EXAMINATION

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Mr. Armstrong, at your last

deposition there were a number of questions that you

declined to answer. You recognize a Motion to

Compel was made and agreed to by Judge Cardenas

requiring you to answer those questions as set forth

in the statement of questions?

A. Okay.

Q. The answers is yes, you recognize

that?

A. Something to that effect.

Q. You indicated at your last deposition

that your church or your religion didn't have any

name. Is that still the case?

A. Correct.

Q. And is there anything that you call

it?

A. The Church.

Q. Are there any ministers of that

church?

A. Yes.
 
236

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Q. Who are they?

A. I decline to answer that.

MR. GREENE: I'll interpose an objection

there based on the right of privacy, personal and

associational, under the First Amendment.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Are you a minister of the church?

MR. GREENE: Objection, asked and answered.

During the course of his prior deposition he

indicated that he was.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Are you a minister of the church?

MR. GREENE: I instruct you not to answer.

It's been asked and answered.

MR. MOXON: You're mistaken, Mr. Greene.

Show me.

MR. GREENE: I don't have to show you.

MR. MOXON: That's because it's not there.

Mr. Greene, there was, as I mentioned to the witness

at the outset of the Motion to Compel, which was

granted and the witness did not say he was a

minister, he said he was a shaman or something like

that.

MR. GREENE: That's fine.

BY MR. MOXON:

 
237

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Q. Are you a minister of the church?

A. Yes.

Q. How long have you been a minister of

the church?

A. Since 1986.

Q. Now, at your last deposition you said

you weren't a minister. Was that -- do you want to

correct that prior testimony or --

A. I'd like to correct your prior

testimony, yes.

Q. Okay. So you claim now you were a

minister since '86?

A. You would have to show me where I

ever said that.

Q. The bottom line is that you claim now

that you were in fact someone called a minister of

your church since 1986; is that right?

A. I do not use the term minister.

Q. Okay. So you're not a minister and

you never were?

MR. GREENE: Objection vague and ambiguous.

What is a minister?

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. You never called yourself a minister,

is that correct, of your church?
 
238

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

A. No, I have called myself a minister.

Q. In what fashion did you call yourself

a minister?

A. In answer to your question just a

moment ago am I a minister, yes I'm a minister.

Q. Is that the first time you ever

called yourself a minister of the church?

A. It may be the first time I ever used

that word. I understand the word, I perform that

function.

Q. Well, what's your function?

MR. GREENE: Objection, vague and ambiguous.

MR. MOXON: It's the witnesses term,

Mr. Greene, function.

MR. GREENE: Do you mean what is his

function as a minister or what is his

function generically?

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. What is your function in your church?

A. Forgiveness.

Q. Forgiveness is not a function.

MR. GREENE: Objection as badgering the

witness.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Is that the sole and complete answer?

 
239

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

 That's the only thing that you would consider to be

your function in your church?

A. Yes.

MR. GREENE: Objection, compound.

MR. MOXON: Let me finish the question, okay

Mr. Greene? Then you can make any objections you

like. We'll do it that way.

Q. You assert that the sole function you

have in your church is, quote, forgiveness, end

quote?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you perform that function?

MR. GREENE: Objection, irrelevant, not

likely to lead to the discovery of admissible

evidence.

MR. BERRY: Join.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. The technical answer is that through

the recognition to that which needs to be forgiven

never happened.

Q. Is that just something that you do in

your own mind or do you communicate that to someone

who's being forgiven?

MR. GREENE: Objection, First Amendment,

 
240

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

 religious liberty.

THE WITNESS: You would have to understand.

You would have to define for me what you mean by

"your own mind" and what you mean by someone else.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Your own mind is something that you

think. Someone else is someone other than yourself.

A. Those are definitions which are

inaccurate and I do not agree with them, so

therefore you're question is meaningless.

Q. Why don't you explain it to me, then,

how you perform the forgiveness function?

A. I have just told you.

MR. GREENE: I want to object also on the

basis of privacy.

MR. BERRY: And relevancy.

MR. GREENE: And relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. As I understand your answer, you

recognize your forgiveness function is performed by

a recognition by someone that the act for which

you're giving forgiveness never actually happened,

is that an accurate representation of --

A. Pretty good.

Q. -- how it works? And who makes that
 
241

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

 recognition, yourself?

MR. GREENE: Objection. That's been asked

and answered.

MR. BERRY: Relevancy.

MR. GREENE: Additionally, relevancy.

THE WITNESS: When I'm called upon to do

that, I do it.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Has anyone ever called upon you to do

that?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

MR. GREENE: Objection, instruct the witness

not to answer. Invasion of privacy, invasion of

First Amendment, religious liberty, invasion of

priest-penitent privilege.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. GREENE: Don't answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. GREENE: Additionally, it's entirely

irrelevant to these proceedings. Not calculated to

lead to the discovery of admissible evidence.

MR. MOXON: Well, there is no such person,

 
242

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

 Mr. Greene. This whole thing is a sham, so I'd like

to find out if there is any other person --

THE WITNESS: I'm taking a break. You sort

it out with that creep across the table.

(Witness leaves the deposition room.)

MR. MOXON: I guess we're on break.

MR. GREENE: Off the record.

(Short discussion was held off the record.)

MR. MOXON: Would you read back the pending

question?

MR. GREENE: There is an instruction to it.

There's no point. Mr. Armstrong is not going to go

in and start disclosing the members of his church

and substance of conversations which he has had with

individuals in that church.

MR. MOXON: I didn't ask for the substance

of any conversation.

Q. Why do you refuse to answer that

question, Mr. Armstrong?

A. What was it?

MR. BERRY: I think he's been instructed not

to answer it.

MR. MOXON: I'll re-ask it.

Q. To whom did you allegedly give

forgiveness as a minister?

 
243

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

A. That's wasn't the question.

MR. MOXON: All right, let's go read it back

then.

(Whereupon, the record was read.)

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Who was called upon to give

forgiveness?

MR. GREENE: Instruct him not to answer

based on the reasons previously stated.

MR. MOXON: I just need an answer for the

record.

Q. Answer or say if you refuse to

answer, one or the other, Mr. Armstrong.

MR. BERRY: He could follow the advice of

counsel.

MR. MOXON: He could. I don't know if he is

going to or not.

Q. Can I have an answer please?

A. No.

Q. You refuse to answer?

A. Right.

Q. Is Bent Corydon a member of your

church?

MR. GREENE: Same objection. First

Amendment, religious liberty, associational,
 
244

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

 privacy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MS. BARTILSON: That one was directly one of

the questions that was ordered by Judge Cardenas for

Mr. Armstrong to answer in our Motion to Compel.

THE WITNESS: I don't recall Judge Cardenas

say anything about Bent Corydon.

MS. BARTILSON: It's all in the motion.

MR. MOXON : Let's confer.

MR. GREENE: Yes, he did. Same objection

but you can answer the question.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

BY MR. MOXON

Q. When did Bent Corydon become a member

of your church?

MR. GREENE: Same objections.

THE WITNESS: I'm not going to answer that.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. How did Bent Corydon become a member

of your church?

MR. GREENE: Same objections.

THE WITNESS: I'm not going to answer that.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Did he ask to be a member?
 
245

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. GREENE: Same objections.

THE WITNESS: I'm not going to answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Does he know he was a member?

MR. GREENE: Calls for speculation.

MR. BERRY: Join.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. (No audible response.)

MR. MOXON: For the record, I've been

waiting for over a minute for an answer to the

question.

THE WITNESS: And I'm trying to figure out

what you want to know.

Q. Does Bent Corydon know whether or not

he's a member of your church?

MR. GREENE: Objection, calls for

speculation.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. How do you know he knows?

A. Without waiving any priest-penitent

privilege between us because of communications I

have had with Bent Corydon.

Q. When did you have such

 
246

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

 communications?

A. I won't answer that.

MR. GREENE: Objection, First Amendment,

religious liberty, privacy, priest penitent.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Are you claiming a priest penitent

relationship with Bent Corydon?

MR. GREENE: Objection, calls for legal

conclusion.

MR. MOXON: You made the objection,

Mr. Greene.

MR. GREENE: Fine.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Are you claiming a priest penitent

relationship with Bent Corydon, Mr. Armstrong?

MR. GREENE: Same objection.

MR. BERRY: Join.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Who's the priest?

MR. GREENE: Objection to the extent that it

calls for a legal conclusion. You can answer the

question.

THE WITNESS: We both are.

BY MR. MOXON:

 
247

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Q. Who's the penitent?

A. We both are.

MR. GREENE: Same objection.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Are you a member of Corydon's church?

MR. GREENE: Objection, no foundation.

MR. BERRY: Relevancy.

MR. GREENE: Join.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. When did Corydon become a member of

your church?

MR. GREENE: Asked and answered.

MS. BARTILSON: Asked and answered? Not

answered.

MR. BERRY: Relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. GREENE: Join.

THE WITNESS: I won't answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Did you ask Corydon to become a

member of your church?

MR. GREENE: Same objections. Actually, at

this point that's starting to get into the substance
 
248

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

 of the relationship between Armstrong and Corydon

and so that starts to extend beyond what is

foundational.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. GREENE: If you don't want to answer the

question, don't.

THE WITNESS: I won't answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Was it before your last deposition --

MR. GREENE: Same objection.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. -- in this case?

A. I've told you that I will not answer

that question.

Q. Did you talk to Joe Yanny about

whether or not Corydon should be a member of your

church?

A. My communications with Mr. Yanny

regarding such matters are privileged and I will not

answer that question.

Q. What privilege?

A. Priest-penitent privilege.

Q. Who's the priest?

MR. BERRY: Also possible work product.
 
249

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. GREENE: Join.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Who's the priest?

A. In that paradigm we both are.

Q. Your relationship with Yanny, you

both are?

A. Right.

Q. Yanny is a priest, too?

A. Yanny is a priest.

Q. What religion?

A. I've explained it to you before, but

I --

MR. GREENE: Wait a minute, wait.

Objection. That's --

MR. MOXON: What --

MR. GREENE: Objection. The question is

argumentative.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. What religion?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy. First

Amendment.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. What religion?

A. The church.

Q. The one that you -- the one that you
 
250

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

 created?

A. The church. I've given you how it's

referred to previously.

Q. Who's the penitent in your

relationship with Yanny?

MR. BERRY: Objection, calls for privileged

communication.

THE WITNESS: We both are.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Do you have a list of members of your

church?

A. I will not answer that.

Q. You refuse?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there any membership criteria for

your church?

A. I --

MR. GREENE: Objection, that's been asked

and answered at the last deposition.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. GREENE: The answer was if anybody asked

or desired to be a member, they could.

MR. BERRY: Also relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

 
251

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Q. Are you going to adopt what

Mr. Greene just said?

A. That's fine.

Q. Is that accurate?

A. I will repeat one more time so that

you fully understand.

Q. I'd like to fully understand.

A. The church has a belief, the church

has a corollary and there's the obvious.

Q. Is there any --

A. The belief is --

Q. Excuse me.

A. -- that when members of the church

are present, God is present. Corollary thereto, and

I'm certain that you have had this many, many times,

that therefore things that are said or done between

members of the church are sacred and the obvious is

that it always has been, is now and will ever be.

Q. Is there any membership criteria for

your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection asked and answered.

MR. GREENE: Objection of relevance.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. Members agree that that is the belief
 
253

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

of the church.

Q. Is there any membership criteria of

your church?

MR. GREENE: Objection, argumentative.

Asked and answered. Don't answer that question. i

MR. MOXON: It's not responsive.

MR. GREENE: It was responsive. That's your

opinion. Don't answer the question. You gave your

answer, that's it.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. You refuse to answer?

A. It has been answered.

MR. GREENE: I'm instructing you not to

answer the question.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. What's the membership criteria of

your church?

MR. GREENE: Objection, that's asked and

answered.

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. GREENE: Argumentative.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. And I need an answer. Are you
 
253

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

refusing to answer, Mr. Armstrong?

MR. BERRY: I think it would also be fair

for him to follow the advice of counsel.

MR. GREENE: When I instruct Mr. Armstrong

not to answer, that instruction stands. And we'll

deem it that he does refuse to answer unless he

disregards that. I would advise Mr. Armstrong not

to do that.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. What's the question?

Q. What is the membership criteria of

your church?

MR. GREENE:, Objection. Relevancy, asked

and answered,argumentative.

THE WITNESS: Can you read back my last

answer to that question?

(Whereupon, the record was read.)

THE WITNESS: That's correct.

MR. GREENE: Answered.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. The question was, Mr. Armstrong, what

is the membership criteria of your church?

MR. GREENE: Objection. It's asked and

answered. It's harassment. If you don't move on,
 
254

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Counsel, we're going to leave. You can ask him

whether there are any other criteria. He gave you

the criteria. He said the criteria was the belief.

MR. MOXON: That's not responsive.

MR. GREENE: If you want to ask him

something else, ask him something else. That's what

he said. That's his response. Even if you don't

like his response.

MR. MOXON: He said there isn't any

criteria.

MR. GREENE: He said it's the belief.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. I need a specific response.

A. And I would ask that you do not flip

me off when you're sitting across the table when the

court reporter cannot see it. Do it one more time,

I'll have to leave.

Q. What are you talking about?

A. That very subtle little way you stick

your finger in the air when you don't like the

answer.

Q. That's --

A. And I don't like it.

Q. That's an absolute falsehood.

A. You should know what you're doing
 
255

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

over there.

Q. Did he tell you to say that?

A. No, he didn't. I saw it.

Q. Did Mr. Greene tell you to say that?

MR. GREENE: Objection, attorney-client

privilege.

MR. MOXON: You're going to claim --

MR. GREENE: Do not answer that.

MR. MOXON: You claim privilege on that?

Priest penitent to that question?

MR. GREENE: Absolutely.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Did Mr. Greene tell you to say that?

A. Listen, it's not very subtle.

MR. GREENE: Objection, attorney-client

privilege.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer please?

MR. GREENE: The instruction is not to

answer. Just say I refuse to answer and let's move

on.

THE WITNESS: I refuse to answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. What's the membership criteria of

your church?
 
256

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

A. (No audible response.)

Q. I just need an answer or refusal to

answer.

MR. GREENE: Objection, that's been asked

and answered.

MR. MOXON: Okay.

MR. GREENE: Don't answer.

MR. BERRY: And relevancy.

MR. GREENE: Don't answer the question.

Just tell him you refuse to answer that question.

THE WITNESS: I refuse to answer that

question.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. When did --

A. Let me qualify that. Plus it's been

answered.

Q. When did Joseph Yanny allegedly

become a member of your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection calls for privileged

communication.

MR. GREENE: Join.

THE WITNESS: And in addition, it has been

answered in the previous deposition.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

 
257

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

A. No.

Q. You refuse?

A. Yes.

Q. Other than yourself and I guess

you've identified CORYDON and Yanny, are there other

person's who serve as priests of your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

MR. GREENE: I join in that.

THE WITNESS: I note by the way that you --

MR. GREENE: Also, First Amendment, privacy.

THE WITNESS: That you use the term "priest"

in a very sarcastic manner. And I also have not

used the term priest. It is not the title that is

given to people in the church.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. What is the title?

A. It fits within the priest penitent or

clergyman penitent paradigm.

Q. Are there any titles in your church

at all?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

MR. GREENE: Join.

THE WITNESS: So within that paradigm, there

are people who perform that function.

BY MR. MOXON:
 
258

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Q. Are there any titles in your church

at all?

MR. BERRY: Same objection.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. What are they?

A. Belief, corollary, obvious.

Q. Are there any titles of any human

beings in your church, that any human beings hold?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

THE WITNESS: There are many human beings.

A lot of them have titles. A lot of those people

with titles are members of the church.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. What are the titles? Identify the

titles that are utilized in your church?

MR. GREENE: Objection, assumes facts not in

evidence.

MR. BERRY: Also relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. If any?

MR. GREENE: Vague and ambiguous.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. What's your question?

 
259

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Q. Identify any titles that are used in

your church?

MR. GREENE: Same objections.

MR. BERRY: Also vague and ambiguous.

THE WITNESS: The question is meaningless

and I cannot answer it.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. There are no titles used in your

church?

A. That question is meaningless, as is

your sarcastic statement is likewise meaningless.

Q. Are there any titles used in your

church?

MR. BERRY: Objection ambiguous.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. For people?

MR. BERRY: Relevancy.

THE WITNESS: People is a good one. There

are people in our church and that is a title which

is given. People, yes.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Are there any titles of any person

who holds any position in your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection.

MR. GREENE: Objection. Vague and

 
260

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

ambiguous, relevancy.

MR. BERRY: My objection was vague. Join.

THE WITNESS: Titles which may be used in

our church I feel are completely protected and I do

not care to hand them over to you to be ridiculed.

That is inappropriate for this place and it's

inappropriate for a court of law.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. You refuse to answer?

A. It certainly is irrelevant as to the

Yanny case.

Q. You refuse to answer?

A. Yes.

Q. Has anyone in your church been

ordained?

MR. GREENE: Objection, vague, ambiguous, no

foundation.

MR. BERRY: Relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. What does "ordained" mean?

Q. It means they have been installed

with authority by the church to act as a minister or

like function?

A. The answer, then, is yes.
 
261

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Q. By whom?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

THE WITNESS: You just -- you answered that

with your own question.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Who has ordained them?

A. You answered that with your own

question.

Q. Who has ordained them?

A. You answered that with your own

question.

Do you want to read back the question

please?

Q. The question -- don't bother.

Questions don't answer questions, Mr. Armstrong. If

you feel that I -- a question that I've asked

answered it, I can appreciate that viewpoint.

Nevertheless, I need a response from you that is

responsive to my question.

Who has ordained them?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

MR. GREENE: First Amendment, privacy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. BERRY: Ambiguous.
 
262

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

THE WITNESS: No, I refuse.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Is Mr. Wynne, Richard Wynne a member

of your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. I cannot answer that question at this

time.

Q. Why?

A. I don't have the information with

which to answer it.

Q. Where is the information?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

MR. GREENE: If you don't know, say that you

don't know.

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Why not?

MR. GREENE: Objection. Come on, Counsel.

He says he didn't know. That's the answer to the

question. Why he doesn't know, how can he know why

he doesn't know something?

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Why not?
 
263

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. GREENE: That's badgering. That's

argumentative. Don't answer the question.

MR. BERRY: Join.

MS. BARTILSON: He doesn't know. If he's

instructed by counsel he doesn't know, I think he

should say it then. Simple answer to a simple

question.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. You refuse to answer?

A. What's the question?

Q. Why not? You don't know whether or

not --

MR. GREENE: Vague, vague and ambiguous.

THE WITNESS: Because.

MR. BERRY: Argumentative.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Why don't you know whether or not

Mr. Wynne is member?

MR. GREENE: Same objections.

MR. BERRY: Join, including relevancy.

THE WITNESS: The question verges on the

moronic. Now I understand that you do this just to

taunt me, just to ridicule me, just to harass me.

But it is as stupid as me asking you why don't you

know if somebody is not a scientologist. How come

 
264

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

you don't know? It's ludicrous.

MR. GREENE: It also calls for speculation.

MR. BERRY: I think there's an instruction

not to answer.

MR. GREENE: There is an instruction not to

answer, so let's just move on.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Oh, you refuse to answer that? Well,

do you have a membership list that would tell you

whether or not Mr. Wynne is a member?

MR. BERRY: Asked and answered.

MR. GREENE: Join.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. I refuse.

Q. Do you know who the members of your

church are?

MR. BERRY: Asked and answered.

MR. GREENE: Join.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. I refuse.

MR. BERRY: Relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. You don't have any building, any

 
265

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

church building?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

THE WITNESS: I refuse to answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Have you ever had any priest-penitent

communications with Mr. Wynne?

MR. BERRY: Objection. Relevancy, calls for

privileged communication.

MR. GREENE: No foundation.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. I refuse.

Q. Is Vicki Aznaran a member of your

church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

MR. GREENE: Join.

MR. BERRY: Calls for privileged

communication.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. I refuse.

Q. How about Mr. Greene? Is he a member

of your church?

A. I refuse to answer.

Q. Do you consider me to be a member of

 
266

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

MR. GREENE: You can answer the question.

Let's move on here.

THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Is Judge Cardenas a member of your

church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

MR. GREENE: Yes, join. It's also can --

it's badgering the witness. Don't answer that

question, Mr. Armstrong. That's just badgering.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. It's a yes or no question?

MR. GREENE: I don't care if it's yes or no.

It's badgering. Don't answer the question.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. GREENE: Say, "I refuse to answer the

question." Let's move on.

THE WITNESS: It's mockery and I refuse.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Is Judge Breckenridge a member of

your church?

A. That is --
 
267

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. BERRY: Relevancy.

MR. GREENE: Counsel, if you're going to

continue to badger the witness, we'll walk. All

right? This is ridiculous. Don't badger the

witness. Ask your questions. If they are

legitimate, that's fine. Otherwise, we're going to

walk.

MR. MOXON: Mr. Greene, calm down.

MR. GREENE: I'm not going to sit here --

no, I'm not going to calm down. I'm not going to

sit here while you badger my client.

MR. MOXON: The only badgering is your

ridiculous objections. I'm asking questions that

Judge Cardenas permitted me to ask and I'm trying to

find out what the scope is of this claim of

privilege.

MR. GREENE: Well, then let's keep it to

what you are entitled to do. There is -- you're not

entitled to ask ridiculous questions about whether

or not Judge Cardenas is a member of Armstrong's

church or Judge Breckenridge is a member of

Armstrong's church.

MR. MOXON: I --

MR. GREENE: And those, by their nature and

by the tone, they are badgering and I'm not going to

 
268

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

sit here while you badger Jerry Armstrong and

neither is he.

MR. MOXON: So, for the record, figure out

what you're going to do.

MR. GREENE: I told him not to answer. For

the record, I'll tell you again, don't answer

questions that are abusive and badgering.

MR. MOXON: So, for the record, you're not

going to answer this question, right?

THE WITNESS: Right.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Do you know the members of your

church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, asked and answered,

relevancy.

MR. GREENE: That's right. It is asked and

answered and it's also more badgering. Don't answer

that question. He's told you some of the members of

his church.

MS. BARTILSON: He hasn't answered. He

still hasn't answered.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Do you know who the members of your

church are, Mr. Armstrong?

MR. GREENE: Same objection. You can answer
 
269

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

that yes.

MR. BERRY: Join.

THE WITNESS: And I must answer it in the

same way that you would answer do you know the

members of your church? You don't. You can't.

It's an impossibility. You're asking a stupid

question. Let's move on.

MR. GREENE: Also, it calls for speculation.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. The answer is no?

MR. BERRY: Mischaracterizes his answer.

THE WITNESS: Yes, it mischaracterizes.

MR. MOXON: All right.

MR. GREENE: Join.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Do you know who the members of your

church are? Yes or no you don't?

MR. GREENE: Calls for speculation.

MR. BERRY: Foundation, mischaracterizes his

testimony. It's argumentative.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. GREENE: You can answer.

MR. BERRY: It's not relevant.

THE WITNESS: So the answer is I certainly
 
270

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

know some. I may not know them all.

MR. GREENE: Good answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. So people could be members of your

church and not have any communication with you, is

that what you're saying?

MR. BERRY: Objection.

MR. GREENE: Objection, calls for

speculation.

MR. BERRY: It also mischaracterizes his

testimony.

MR. GREENE: Join.

MR. MOXON: I'll answer.

MS. BARTILSON: Let him answer the question.

It doesn't mischaracterize anything, it's a

question.

MR. GREENE: Calls for speculation.

MS. BARTILSON: Let him speculate.

THE WITNESS: Could be.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. It could be that you don't know all

the members of your church? Who all the members of

your church are or -- excuse me?

A. It could be.

Q. It could be that you don't know
 
271

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

people who are members of your church; is that

right?

A. Correct.

MR. GREENE: Okay.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Okay. So I take it then you have no

membership list?

MR. BERRY: That mischaracterizes his

testimony.

MR. GREENE: Objection.

MR. BERRY: Relevance.

MR. GREENE: It's argumentative.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. I will not answer about membership

lists.

Q. What does someone have to do to

become a member of your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

MR. GREENE: Asked and answered. It's just

a criteria question in a different form.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. GREENE: Don't answer the question.

THE WITNESS: I have answered it. I refuse
 
272

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

to answer it again.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. You're refusing to answer the

question?

MR. GREENE: Objection, that's asked and

answered. He just -- he just gave you his response.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. I never received an answer to that

question. What does someone have to do to become a

member of your church?

MR. GREENE: Objection, asked and answered.

MR. BERRY: Join and irrelevant.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. Just so that we can move on, I will

repeat the answer.

Q. Okay.

A. Again.

Q. Okay.

A. They must agree that that is the

belief of the church, that is that when members are

together, God is present. I

Q. And anyone who accepts that belief is

a member?

MR. GREENE: Objection, asked and answered.
 
273

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. BERRY: Mischaracterizes his testimony.

MR. MOXON: I'm asking --

MR. GREENE: He just gave you the answer.

You asked him what does somebody do to --

MR. MOXON: Calm down, Mr. Greene.

MR. GREENE: I'm not going to calm down.

It's a waste of time. You're asking the same

question over and over and over again.

MS. BARTILSON: There are criteria before

one can claim the priest-penitent privilege that

your client has claimed. So let's let him ask a few

foundational questions and then we can move on.

MR. GREENE: He's being --

MS. BARTILSON: Your instruction is not

helping, Mr. Greene.

MR. MOXON: If we added up the number of

lines that we have all expended, Mr. Greene, yours

is going to far exceed everyone else's put together.

MR. GREENE: Great.

MR. BERRY: I think that he has an objection

and an instruction.

MR. GREENE: I'm not suggesting anything. I

am -- I just want to you to ask a decent question

and let's move on and don't ask the same questions

repeatedly.

 
 
274

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. MOXON: Would you read back the pending

question, please?

MR. GREENE: The pending question is what

does somebody have to do to become a member of the

church.

MS. BARTILSON: No, that is not the pending

questioning. There was one after that.

(Record read.)

MR. MOXON: Okay.

MS. BARTILSON: There was another.

THE WITNESS: The question was -- what's the

second question?

MR. MOXON: I'll ask another question.

Q. As long as someone believes in your

basic belief, are they automatically a member of

your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, mischaracterizes his

testimony. Also irrelevant.

MR. GREENE: Vague and ambiguous. Calls for

speculation.

MR. BERRY: Join.

THE WITNESS: Also not understandable so

therefore I cannot answer it.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. If someone accepts the basic belief,

 
275

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

are they automatically a member of your church?

MR. GREENE: Same objection.

MR. BERRY: Join.

THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean by

automatically.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. By virtue of acceptance of the belief

of your church, does one become a member?

MR. BERRY: Objection, vague and ambiguous,

unintelligible, confusing.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. Perhaps I can help you out here.

Q. No, answer my question. That'll help

me out.

A. Your question doesn't make any sense

because you refuse to understand.

Q. Well, I'm trying to understand. The

best way for me to understand is for you to answer

my questions. You answer my questions and

eventually we'll come to an understanding and the

court can come to an understanding too

A. I believe you must ask questions that

must make some sense.

Q. Well, tell me how one becomes a
 
276

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

member of the church then?

A. Okay. I'll do that.

Q. All right.

A. And this is the third time.

MR. GREENE: And the last.

THE WITNESS: Or fourth, but I'll do it

again because you do have difficulty understanding

it.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. I certainly do.

A. I'll make this --

MR. GREENE: Just give him the answer

please.

THE WITNESS: They simply agree that the

belief is the belief.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. There are no other criteria; correct?

A. Correct.

Q. With whom do they agree?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

MR. GREENE: Objection. And it

mischaracterizes his testimony.

MR. BERRY: Also vague and ambiguous.

THE WITNESS: The question does make no

sense whatsoever.

 
 
277

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. So they just -- if a person accepts

in his own mind that belief, are they a member of

the church?

A. They --

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

THE WITNESS: They clearly can.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. They can be, but not necessarily?

A. You have constructed something in

your mind which does not fit with reality, so your

question becomes unintelligible.

Q. Answer my question. By such

acceptance you're not necessarily a member?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

THE WITNESS: You're dealing with a

hypothetical.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. Your question doesn't make sense.

Q. Well, you said they could be, but

they might not be. I'm trying to find out.

A. Is that not enough?

Q. No, it's not.

A. Okay. You don't like the answer, I
 
278

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

can't help you with that.

Q. You can help me by clarifying it.

Does that mean that by acceptance one doesn't

necessarily become a member of your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

MR. GREENE: Also calls for speculation.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. I don't understand the question.

Q. Can one accept the basic belief and

still not be a member of your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, ambiguous.

MR. GREENE: Calls for speculation.

MR. BERRY: And irrelevant.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. BERRY: And vague as to what?

THE WITNESS: And I'm not sure what you

mean.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Well, let me explain it this way. As

I understand your testimony, and correct me if I'm

wrong, when one accepts the basic belief, then one

can become a member; is that correct?

A. No.

 
279

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. GREENE: Objection, asking him to

comment on his own testimony. That's been asked and

answered.

MR. MOXON: That's a new objection. Asking

someone to comment on their own testimony is some

kind of testimonial objection? Okay.

MS. BARTILSON: This is a great trial

expense.

MR. BERRY: It certainly mischaracterizes

the testimony.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Well, if the court reporter accepts

the basic belief that one becomes a member of the

hurch by accepting such belief, does that nake her

a member?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy both to

this litigation and to the foundational aspect on

the priest-penitent privilege.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. GREENE: Join.

THE WITNESS: The church has one belief, it

has one corollary and there's the obvious. If the

court reporter agrees that that is the belief of the

church, that is sufficient. She may be a member of

 
280

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

the church.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Are there any specific practices in

your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy to both

this litigation and foundational aspects of the

privilege.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. GREENE: First Amendment and privacy.

THE WITNESS: I have answered that

previously and that is that the practice and

function is forgiveness.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Other than forgiveness, is there any

practice of your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean by

other than forgiveness?

MR. GREENE: Objection, vague and ambiguous.

Just rephrase the question.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Is forgiveness a practice --

MR. GREENE: Objection.

BY MR. MOXON:

 
281

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Q. -- in your church?

MR. GREENE: Objection, asked and answered.

Don't answer that again.

THE WITNESS: I refuse to answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. I'm a little confused, Mr. Armstrong.

A. I know that.

Q. If you could help me out, I'd really

appreciate it.

A. Okay.

Q. I don't know whether or not your

church has any practices as the world understands

religious practices generally to be?

MR. GREENE: Objection, vague and ambiguous.

MR. MOXON: Excuse me, Mr. Greene. I didn't

ask a question yet. Chill out.

Q. I'm trying to understand your church

by virtue of my understanding of a number of other

religions that have been in the world for a long

time and presently exist. I'm asking you these

questions to aid my understanding and the Court's

understanding because they'll only understand by

what you and I tell the Court.

A. I disagree with that. I think that

the --

 
282

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. GREENE: That's -- no, hold on

Mr. Armstrong. There's no question. You don't need

to get into any kind of philosophical debate or

discussion.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. So my question is first,

foundationally, do you understand the term religious

practices as used in other religions?

MR. GREENE: Objection.

MR. BERRY: Vague.

MR. GREENE: Calls for speculation. It's

vague, there's no foundation.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Do you understand what I mean by the

term religious practices as used in other religions?

MR. GREENE: Objection.

MR. BERRY: Vague and ambiguous, relevant --

irrelevant.

MR. GREENE: Which -- oh, come on. Jesus.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. This is foundational and I'm going to

ask you about your church.

A. I understand the term religious

practice.

Q. Okay. Is --

 
283

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

A. But not as you understand it. So

don't leap off with this assumption.

Q. Well, tell me what your understanding

is of religious practice?

A. Forgiveness.

Q. So is forgiveness then a religious

practice of your church?

MR. GREENE: Objection. That's been asked

and answered. Don't answer that question again.

MR. BERRY: It's also irrelevant.

MR. GREENE: And it's argumentative. Don't

answer the question. Just tell him, "I'm not going

to answer the question."

THE WITNESS: That's correct. I'm not going

to answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. All right. Are there any practices

in your church?

MR. GREENE: Objection, that's asked and

answered and it's argumentative. It's badgering.

Don't answer that question.

MR. BERRY: Also irrelevant.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer.

A. (No audible response.)

 
284

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Q. Answer?

A. The church has a belief, a corollary

and the obvious.

Q. Okay.

A. And to me, all of that is obvious.

It is obvious to me that it is not obvious to you.

Nevertheless, that is what the church is about.

Q. Are there any other -- are there any

practices that the church has in the sense of

something that's actually done physically? Any

physical practices?

I'll give you some examples. Like in some

Christian churches, they have a communion ceremony,

their marriage ceremonies, there's prayer. Those

are things that are practices and you can see people

doing it. You can walk into a Catholic church and

see someone praying. You can see someone singing a

hymn. Are there any physical practices in your

church --

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. -- as I've used that term?

MR. GREENE: Objection, vague and ambiguous,

compound.

THE WITNESS: So that you understand, the

 
285

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

answer is yes.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. What are those practices, those

physical practices?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

THE WITNESS: Whatever is said or done

between members of the church.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Okay. So if you and another member

of your church communicate with each other on any

subject, that is a practice of your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection relevancy.

THE WITNESS: The practice of the church,

and just so we're really very clear where this term

practice came from, that originated in my specific

relationship with others and what was my practice

and my function.

So what we are talking about here is my

practice and my function regarding the church and

regarding its members globally. It has a belief, it

has a corollary and there's the obvious.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Is every communication between

yourself and another member of your church a

practice of your church?
 
286

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

A. I've told you.

MR. BERRY: Objection, calls for privileged

communications.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Yes or no?

MR. BERRY: Also irrelevant.

THE WITNESS: The practice is forgiveness.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Is there any activity, any -- excuse

me, is any communication between yourself and

another member of your church a practice of your

church?

A. It is sacred.

Q. Is any communication between yourself

and another member of your church a practice of your

church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, vague, compound and

ambiguous. Irrelevant.

MR. GREENE: Join.

THE WITNESS: The practice is forgiveness.

Anything that is said or done between members of the

church is sacred.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Absolutely anything?

MR. BERRY: Objection argumentative.

 
287

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. GREENE: Join in that.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Without limitation?

A. As I have -- I have explained --

MR. GREENE: Objection.

MR. BERRY: Relevancy.

THE WITNESS: As I have explained to you and

put in a declaration, it is qualified where matters

of safety, courtesy, wisdom, or its opposite,

stupidity enters in, then those are addressed.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Those aren't part of your practices?

MR. GREENE: Objection, vague and ambiguous.

MR. BERRY: Also argumentative.

THE WITNESS: That is part of my practice.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. What is?

A. What I just explained to you.

MR. GREENE: What he just said.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. So, if you're doing something unsafe,

that is not a part of your practice?

MR. GREENE: Objection.

MR. BERRY: Objection. Vague and ambiguous,

irrelevant, asked and answered.
 
288

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. GREENE: No foundation.

THE WITNESS: You misstate what I stated.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Yes. I'm just trying --

A. You mischaracterize.

Q. I'm just trying to understand.

A. No, you're not trying to understand.

You're trying to harass.

MR. GREENE: Just -- don't. Just answer the

question, okay? Don't argue, just answer the

questions. Don't argue.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. That's the best instruction we've

had.

Please answer. My questions are quite

simple. If you answer them, it will move along and

you can go back to do what you do.

MR. BERRY: Some of them call for privileged

communication.

MS. BARTILSON: None of them have in the

last 45 minutes.

MR. MOXON: Well, we'll find out about that.

MR. GREENE: Great.

MR. MOXON: We'll let the Judge find out,

won't we, and we'll have a good 'ol time. It seems
 
289

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

to be so funny.

Q. Is every communication between

yourself and another church member a practice of

your church?

A. I'll repeat it one more time.

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Yes or no is all I need now.

A. Your question doesn't make any sense.

I've stated many times that it has a belief, a

corollary and the obvious. My practice and my

function is forgiveness.

Now, I notice that during the time that I'm

answering this question, counsel has gone off and

chosen to engage himself in a communication with his

associate counsel, totally ignoring my answer. I

consider that very rude. It does not make this

deposition go any more smoothly. It does not make

me more --

MS. BARTILSON: Are you making a speech,

Mr. Armstrong, instead of answering the question?

Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm sorry. You're entitled to

make a speech.

MR. BERRY: Are we double teaming here?

BY MR. MOXON:

 
290

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Q. Have you ever shared any alcohol with

Joseph Yanny?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. That is, have you ever gone drinking

with him and spoken to him over a beer or something

like that?

MR. GREENE: You can answer that question.

THE WITNESS: I think there have been times

in a setting like that.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. During that communication with

Mr. Yanny, in that setting, was that part of your

religious practice?

MR. GREENE: Objection.

MR. BERRY: Mischaracterizes his testimony.

MR. GREENE: It's also vague as to time.

Don't answer that question.

MR. BERRY: And it's irrelevant.

BY MR.MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. No, I won't answer that.

Q. You refuse?

A. Yes.

Q. What basis?
 
291

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. GREENE: I just instructed him not to

answer on the basis that it is vague as to time.

Clean it up and I think you can get an answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. You have the time in mind when you

were sitting with Yanny having some alcohol

together, Mr. Armstrong?

A. No, I don't have a specific time.

MR. BERRY: Does it have to be alcohol?

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. You don't know? You don't recall any

specific time now?

A. Nothing comes to mind.

Q. So you want to change your testimony?

Have you had such a meeting or not; yes or no?

MR. GREENE: Objection. That's

argumentative.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. No, I want to know which. We seem to

have conflicting testimony.

What I want to know -- just calm down. Let

me finish my question and then you can make any

objection you want, Mr. Greene, okay? Just calm

down.

Do you remember any specific time when you
 
292

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

and Mr. Yanny were sitting down drinking together;

yes or no?

MR. BERRY: Objection, right of privacy as

to drinking.

MR. GREENE: You can answer that question.

THE WITNESS: I'm trying to think of a time.

MR. GREENE: If you can't recall, tell him

you can't recall.

THE WITNESS: No, no specific time comes to

mind.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Do you remember a time when you

talked to Joseph Yanny specifically?

A. I recall talking to Joseph Yanny.

Q. Has every communication you ever had

with Joseph Yanny been part of the religious

practice of your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, mischaracterizes his

testimony.

MR. MOXON: It's a question.

MS. BARTILSON: There's no testimony to

mischaracterize. Surely you can think of something

better than that.

MR. BERRY: Give me time.

THE WITNESS: I -- you --

 
293

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. GREENE: Wait, wait, wait. Just, if you

just give a direct response, just respond. Don't

argue. If you don't understand the question, make

him repeat the question, but give a direct response.

THE WITNESS: Yes. Again, regarding the

subject of practice, you have mischaracterized

whatever I've said about that.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Okay. So I take it, then, the answer

would be no, every communication you ever had with

Joseph Yanny is not part of.your religious practice?

A. No. You're mischaracterizing what I

said.

MR. GREENE: Wait a minute. Just answer the

question. Don't fight with Mr. Moxon. Just answer

the question. He can -- it does call for a yes or

no answer and you can answer it.

THE WITNESS: All the communications between

Mr. Yanny and myself are sacred.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Do you remember when you were driving

to the Court of Appeals with Mr. Yanny and Toby

Plevin?

MR. BERRY: Objection, no foundation.

BY MR. MOXON:
 
294

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

Q. Do you remember that incident?

MR. GREENE: Wait. Objection, no foundation

and vague as to time. Don't answer the question

until he cleans up the time.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Do you remember the time when you and

Yanny were driving to the Court of Appeals together

with Toby Plevin?

A. Yes.

Q. Good. Was that a sacred conversation

you were having with Yanny in the car?

A. Whatever was said between Mr. Yanny

and myself was sacred.

Q. Was Toby Plevin a member of your

church when the conversation began?

MR. BERRY: Clarify something.

THE WITNESS: I can't answer that.

MR. BERRY: When was this, Counsel? Do you

have a date in mind?

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Is Toby Plevin a member of your

church now?

A. I can't answer that.

Q. You don't know?

A. Right.

 
295

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. When you're talking -- when you were

talking to Joseph Yanny about what happened during

the original arrangement at the Court of Appeals, is

that a sacred conversation?

MR. BERRY: Objection, lacks foundation.

There's been no testimony to that. Calls for

privileged communication.

MR. MOXON: Why don't you read the prior

deposition, Mr. Berry?

MR. BERRY: Also it calls for privileged

communication, attorney work product privilege.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. Communications between Mr. Yanny and

myself are sacred.

Q. Have you ever talked to Mr. Yanny

about sports? The Lakers, the Dodgers, some

football team, any basketball team?

MR. GREENE: Objection, irrelevant, not

calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible

evidence.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

 
296

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. BERRY: Join.

THE WITNESS: Communications between

Mr. Yanny and myself are sacred.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer my question?

A. I've answered it.

Q. You refuse to tell me whether or not

you have ever spoken to Mr. Yanny about sports?

A. Right.

Q. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Yanny

about what food you should eat?

MR. GREENE: Objection, irrelevant.

MR. BERRY: Join.

THE WITNESS: The answer -- my answer is the

same as my answer for the last question.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. You refuse to answer?

A. Right.

Q. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Yanny

about when there is a court appearance or when there

is a deposition?

MR. BERRY: Objection, calls for privileged

communication, attorney work product privilege.

MR. GREENE: It's also vague as to time.

Don't answer the question.

 
297

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. BERRY: There's an instruction.

MR. GREENE: Just say, "I'm not going to

answer the question."

THE WITNESS: In addition to that, I've

already answered it. Your deposition, the prior

deposition contains that information.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. So you, so as a foundational matter,

you recall giving prior testimony about speaking to

Mr. Yanny about the fact that you were going to be

deposed in this case; is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. Was that a sacred

communication?

A. Yes.

MR. BERRY: Objection, also calls for

attorney work product privilege and information.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. I don't think there's much point

making an objection after the question's been

answered, Mr. Berry. But if you want to talk on the

record, I guess.

MS. BARTILSON: It's keeping him awake.

 
298

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Do you remember the time that you and

Yanny and I met in the courthouse?

MR. GREENE: Objection that's been asked and

answered. Don't answer.

MR. MOXON: It's a foundational question,

Greene.

MR. GREENE: You can call me Mr. Greene,

Mr. Moxon, or otherwise we're going to walk.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. BERRY: Objection, vague as to time.

MR. GREENE: I'm telling you don't answer

that question. It's been asked and answered.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. I'm going to follow my attorney's

instructions.

Q. During the conversation that you,

Yanny and I had in the courthouse, was that a sacred

communication?

MR. BERRY: Objection, vague as to time.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Was the conversation that you and I
 
299

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

had in Mr. Yanny's presence sacred?

A. Yes.

Q. Is every conversation you have with

any person in Mr. Yanny's presence sacred?

A. It can be.

Q. Is this conversation we're having

right now sacred?

A. It could be.

Q. Is it?

A. It is.

Q. What makes it sacred, according to

the practices of your church?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.

THE WITNESS: If you understood who you were

and what you were, you would understand sacredness.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. What makes it sacred?

A. Because of who we are.

MR. GREENE: Objection irrelevant.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Is Barry Van Sickle a member of your

church?

MR. BERRY: Objection relevancy.

MR. GREENE: Also --

MR. BERRY: Also asked and answered long
 
300

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

ago.

MR. GREENE: And associational privacy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Is Cummins and White?

MR. BERRY: Objection, relevance.

THE WITNESS: I won't answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. I won't answer.

MS. BARTILSON: That's protected.

MR. BERRY: Off the record.

(Discussion was held off the record.)

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Did you ever talk to Joe Yanny about

Vicki Aznaran's relationship with the Church of

Scientology?

MR. BERRY: Objection, calls for privileged

communication.

MR. GREENE: In addition to that, it calls

for attorney work product. Don't answer that

question.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer please?

A. I'm sorry, I won't answer.

Q. Did you ever have any communication

 
301

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

with Joseph Yanny about his own relationship with

the Church of Scientology?

A. Same thing.

Q. You refuse to answer?

A. Right.

Q. Did Joseph Yanny ever mention to you

that he was provided some form of counseling by Bent

Corydon?

MR. BERRY: Objection, calls for privileged

communications, including the attorney work product

privilege.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. His communications to me are

privileged.

Q. Answer?

A. I won't answer.

Q. Did this subject ever come up between

you and Yanny?

A. I won't answer.

MS. BARTILSON: Is this on advice of counsel

that you're not answering? We should clarify for

the record.

THE WITNESS: It is, because --

MR. BERRY: Well, on behalf of Mr. Yanny,
 
302

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

I'm asserting certain privileges which he and I

hold, which is one of -- which is the attorney work

product privilege.

MS. BARTILSON: All right. That part's

clarified, thank you.

MR. BERRY: But I have given no instructions

not to answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Did you ever have any -- by the way,

is Mr. Berry here your lawyer?

MR. GREENE: No, I am.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Mr. Armstrong?

MR. BERRY: Well, if I am, it's news to me.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. No.

MR. MOXON: Thank you, Mr. Berry, for

clarifying that for the witness because he is having

a little trouble answering.

THE WITNESS: No, he wasn't.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Did you ever have any communications

with Mr. Yanny about scientology?

MR. GREENE: Objection, vague as to time.
 
303

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

MR. BERRY: Also calls for privileged

communication and attorney work product privilege.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer? I said ever before,

including this court order for Mr. Yanny to gather

evidence in his defense in this case?

A. (No audible response.)

Q. Answer?

A. Mr. Yanny's communications to me I

consider privileged.

Q. You refuse to answer?

A. Yes.

MR. MOXON: We'll take a break for a minute.

(Short recess was taken.)

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Mr. Armstrong, what literary matters

is Joseph Yanny representing you on?

MR. GREENE: Objection, attorney-client

privilege. Don't answer that question.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

MR. BERRY: Join.

THE WITNESS: No, I refuse to answer.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. What artistic matters is Yanny

 
304

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

representing you on, if any?

MR. BERRY: Objection.

MR. GREENE: Same objection.

MR. BERRY: Plus it lacks foundation.

MR. GREENE: And relevancy.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. Same thing. I won't answer.

Q. Is Yanny representing you in any

artistic matters?

MR. GREENE: Objection, asked and answered.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. Yes. This has been fully answered in

the last day's deposition.

Q. Do you refuse to answer?

A. Other than that, I repeat everything

that I said at that time now.

Q. Did you ever have any discussions

with Joseph Yanny when he asked you to give him

counseling and then you talked about legal matters?

MR. BERRY: Objection, calls for privileged

communications by the attorney work product and the

priest penitent.

MR. GREENE: Yes, I'll join in that and
 
305

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

instruct the witness not to answer. It's also a

compound question.

BY MR. MOXON:

Q. Answer?

A. I'll follow my attorney's

instructions.

Q. Do you know if Joseph Yanny uses

drugs?

MR. BERRY: Objection.

MR. GREENE: Irrelevant, also Fifth

Amendment privilege. Don't answer that question.

THE WITNESS: I'll follow my attorney's

instructions and won't answer ever.

MR. MOXON: Okay. We're going to seek a

Motion to Compel and for sanctions. We will see you

in court.

MR. BERRY: Okay.

THE WITNESS: Do you -- now that I'm here,

do you -- does he want to take my deposition?

MR. MOXON: We're not done yet with your

deposition.

(Short discussion was held off the record.)

MR. MOXON: The witness did not order a copy

of the transcript so we don't have a dispute of

that.
 
306

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

THE WITNESS: You should probably --

MR. MOXON: Let's put a stipulation on how

to deal with that later. Before you do --

MR. GREENE: Let's figure out what it is.

(Short discussion was held off the record.)

MR. MOXON: The stipulation is that the

original will come to Bowles and Moxon and it will

be maintained in our custody for any purposes of

trial. A certified copy will be sent to Mr. Greene

for the witness to review and make any changes he

deems appropriate. If no changes are made within 30

days, it will be sent back to the court reporter.

It will be deemed final for all purposes. We will

expedite the transcript.

In the mean time, we do plan to use it in

our Motion to Compel prior to the time Mr. Armstrong

makes any changes, if any.

MR. GREENE: Okay, thank you. Fine.

MR. MOXON: And you're not ordering your own

copy of the transcript?

MR. GREENE: No, that's correct.

(Deposition was adjourned at 12:50 p.m.)

 
307

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 
STATE OF CALIFORNIA

COUNTY OF MARIN		 )
)    SS.
)

 

 

I, the undersigned, declare under penalty

of perjury that I have read the foregoing

transcript, and I have made any corrections,

additions, or deletions that I was desirous of

making; that the foregoing is a true and correct

transcript of my testimony contained therein.

EXECUTED this ____ day of____,

1992, at________________, California.
                  (City)

 

 

 

 

____________________
GERALD ARMSTRONG
 
308

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 

REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

 

 

I, SHEENAGH M. CARLSON, CSR NO. 8350,

Certified Shorthand Reporter, certify:

That the foregoing proceedings were taken

before me at the time and place therein set forth,

at which time the witness was put under oath by me;

That the testimony of the witness and all

objections made at the time of the examination were

recorded stenographically by me and were thereafter

transcribed;

That the foregoing is a true and correct

transcript of my shorthand notes so taken.

I further certify that I am not a

relative or employee of any attorney of any of the

parties nor financially interested in the action.

Dated this Saturday, February 8, 1992

 

[signed Sheenagh M. Carlson]

Certified Shorthand Reporter

 

OFFICIAL SEAL
SHEENAGH M. CARLSON
NOTARY PUBLIC - CALIFORNIA
SONOMA COUNTY
My comm. expires DEC 25, 1993

§  What's New  ||  Search   ||  Legal Archive  ||  Wog Media  ||  Cult Media  ||  CoW ® ||  Writings  ||  Fun  ||  Disclaimer  ||  Contact  §