Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Fletcher Prouty .
From: armstrong@dowco.com (gerry armstrong)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:16:49 GMT

--------

On 28 Mar 1999 12:56:58 -0600, wbarwell@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (William Barwell) wrote:

>In article <01be78c5$66fb7ac0$7589a6d1@gladys>, GS <gstayert@sgi.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>William Barwell <wbarwell@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> wrote in article
>><7dk3qg$a8j$1@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>...
>>> In article <36FD8470.E62570E6@rmii.com>, Eric Fowler <sockeye@rmii.com>
>>wrote:
>>> >
>
>>> No, he never was. He just picked up some quick $$$ for writing a
>>biography
>>> for Scientology.
>>
>>Len Osanic says he never wrote such a biography. Len knows what the Col.
>>has done much better than you. Yet you go on to embellish the incorrect
>>statement by implying that you "know" that he made "...quick $$..." by
>>doing so.
>>
>>You make yourself look quite foolish here. Are your statements on other
>>topics as robust in their veracity and insight?
>>
>
>Prouty most certainly did something for Scientology.
>Now, as to what is teh question. Hubbard long lied about
>his military service, and lied about being a highly decorated
>wounded vet, which he was not. When he was on tha Apollo, he
>incessently regaled his sea org followers with such tales.
>He even went so far as to send a letter to the Navy demanding copies
>of all his issued 21 medals. He sent a clever ruse of a letter meant
>to decieve teh clearks who were not decieved and sent only the 4
>undistiguished 'warm body' medals Hubbard could rightfully claim.
>Hubbard then went on to claim his medals were issued when he
>was doing secret work for the Navy, such medals themselves being thus
>secret, which is why he was not issued copies.
>Utter bullshit. As time went on, Hubbard's real Navy record started
>coming out and his claims in his mini-biographies stuck in back of
>numerous Hubbard books were exposed as the lies they were.
>
>After Hubbard's death, the cult started to handle this with a long
>and well planned propaganda effort to explain these things away.
>They rarely mentioned these things at all, and only would use
>such propaganda when very necessary.
>
>One bit of propaganda was a report prepared for Scientology by Fletcher
>Prouty. Prouty wrote a report claiming Hubbard was indeed in naval
>intelligence and that his records were "sheepdipped" that is were
>falsely created to hide his intelligence efforts.
>
>This indeed prouty did write for Scientology. some years ago, when
>examining Hubbard's piss poor military record and his lies, a
>Scientology propaganda minion, Andrew Milne, a staff writer
>for "Freedom", and editor of Scientology propaganda organ "Standup!"
>came into ARS and tried bullshitting us, and used Prouty's
>incompetent and utterly wrong ereport, biography or however you wish
>to characterize it, to explain away Hubbard's lies.
>
>Yes. Prouty did write something for Scientology to give
>Scientology some cover for the lying and bullshitting Hubbard
>did that had passed into official cult hagiograpy.
>
>Patrick Jost, a critic and ex-Scientologists who posted here back then and
>still on rare occasion pops back up from time to time here, actually
>took teh effort to find Prouty and write him about this. He wanted to
>know, what proof or evidence Prouty had that indeed, Hubbard ever did
>actually have "shhepdipped" records, or was actually involved in
>secret operations, the stories being extremely unlikely from many
>points of view.
>
>Prouty wrote back and admitted he remembered little of what he
>had written or what he had actually known about Hubbard when he wrote
>this apologism for Scientology.

Has this Prouty letter been posted?

>
>The fact though, that Prouty had held his position in the White House and
>other security related posts was sued by Scientology to paint
>Prouty as an expert on such matters, a form of intellectual
>authoritarianism, a hand wave argument.
>
>As far as anybody can tell, Prouty seems to have mistaken a notation
>on Hubbard's records, "16", which meant he was still on reserve
>status in 1945 when he was mustered out, as having some sort
>of status with Naval intelligence, which is wrong and incompetent.
>or worse.
>
>There are no "sheepdipped" Hubbard records. This is a farce
>from Prouty, cover for Hubbard's lies. Hubbard's whereabouts is well
>known and there is no room for secret daring-do escapades that
>earned him any medals.
>
>Patrick Yost, himself with past experience in security matters,
>took the effort to request Hubbard's records, all 600 pages
>from the Navy under the FOIA statutes.
>They are exactly and excruciatingly exactly what critics have long
>known, the records of a not too competent man whose career showed
>little signs of anything near what Hubbard would later claim.
>
>Not only that, but later, in a lawsuit, his Naval days would be an issue
>and his second in command aboard the PC-815 testified in court.
>The long time period in training for command for a subhunter, which
>is what PC-815 was, leaves no time for running around earning lots of
>medals in secret wars as Prouty would have us believe.
>
>You might want to have your buddy inquire about this report Prouty
>prepared about Hubbard and what prrof, hard evidence Prouty had
>that Hubbard was anything more than a doofus that lied a lot about his
>record.
>
>Prouty sure wrote SOMETHING. Which the church from time to time as
>necessary, trots out, waves around a bit, and claims this is proof
>from a highly decorated and competent military and security expert that
>once worked in the Kennedy Whitehouse that Hubbard was not a liar.

I recall that the Prouty sheepdip story appeared in a couple of places in cult " literature," but the first place it appeared, and the "source" for later stories, was a declaration Prouty signed for the cult which was filed in CSC v. Armstrong (LA Superior Ct. No. 420153) following the June, 1984 decision by Judge Breckenridge.

I suspect that the sheepdip idea floated to the surface after the Armstrong decision; otherwise the cult would have used Prouty as their expert at trial. But then again, maybe not, since they did use the Moulton testimony re PC 815 as mentioned.

I don't have the Prouty declaration, but I believe I can track down a copy, and will post it.

(c) Gerry Armstrong
.
>
>But Hubbard was a liar.
>
>Prouty has never exactly explained this, though Patrick Jost tried
>to find out just what went on.
>
>As one of those who reasoned with Andrew Milne when he was here
>trying to use Prouty's nonsense when he tried that, and has seen
>copies of the correspondance between Jost and Prouty, and seen
>quite a bit of Hubbard's outrageous lies and exposed more myself
>from time to time, I think the Prouty part in the propaganda
>war of Scientology needs some explaining. All Prouty ever really
>did offer was his opinion, no evidence whatsoever.
>
>If Prouty had otherwise, maybe your buddy can tell us what.
>Why not ask him?
>
>But first of all, find out what exactly Prouty did write for Scientology
>and under what circumstances.
>
>And yes, Prouty's name came out two years ago in a long article
>on the "Iron Mountain Report" in new Republic, he never managed to
>understand it was a hoax even after the hoax was exposed and owned up to
>by the hoaxers. He is a well known Kennedy assassination fringe figure
>and also a fringe figure in the holocaust denial movement. He is not
>exactly a well regarded researcher I would hazard to state, by people who
>know about such things.
>
>YMMV
>
>Pope Charles
>SubGenius Pope of Houston
>Slack!
>