Gerry Armstrong--Reporters Transcript of Proceedings 06-01-1984 LASC 420153

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SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DEPARTMENT NO. 57 HON. PAUL G. BRECKENRIDGE, JR., JUDGE

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA,

Plaintiff,

vs.

GERALD ARMSTRONG,

Defendant.

MARY SUE HUBBARD,

Intervenor.

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No. C 420153

REPORTERS' DAILY TRANSCRIPT

Friday, June 1, 1984

Volume 23

Pages 3990 to 4060, incl.

APPEARANCES:
(See Appearances Page)

NANCY L. HARRIS, CSR #644
HERB CANNON, CSR #1923
Official Reporters

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff:

PETERSON & BRYNAN
BY: JOHN G. PETERSON
8530 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 407
Beverly Hills, California 90211
(213) 659-9965

-and-

ROBERT N. HARRIS
The Oviatt Building
617 South Olive Street
Suite 915
Los Angeles, California 90014
(213) 623-7511

For the Intervenor:

LITT & STORMER
BY: BARRETT S. LITT
Paramount Plaza
3550 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 1200
Los Angeles, California 90010
(213) 386-4303

-and-

BARRETT S. LITT
BY: MICHAEL S. MAGNUSON
The Oviatt Building
617 South Olive Street
Suite 1000
Los Angeles, California 90014
(213) 623-7511

For the Defendant:

CONTOS & BUNCH
BY: MICHAEL J. FLYNN

- and-

JULIA DRAGOJEVIC
5855 Topanga Canyon Boulevard
Suite 400
Woodland Hills, California 91367
(213) 716-9400

INDEX FOR VOLUME 23		Pages 3990 — 4160, incl.

DAY	DATE		PAGE

Friday	June 1, 1984	A.M.	3990
		P.M.	4070

WITNESSES

PLAINTIFF'S::	DIRECT	CROSS	REDIRECT	RECROSS

TINCH, Gene F.
(Resumed)	3991-P	3996
Burgess, Walter Charles	3998-H	4015	4029-H	4030
FLINN, Frank K.	4032-L
(Resumed)	4070-L	4097	4158-L

EXHIBITS

PLAINTIFF'S:

FOR
IDENTIFICATION

IN
EVIDENCE

90- (Previously marked for identification)

92- Copy of a diagram

3993

3998

3997

4031

THE COURT: We are back in session. Counsel are all

here.

Are we ready to go on with the next witness?

MR. LITT: Our next witness will be Frank Flinn, Your

Honor.

FRANK K. FLINN,

called as a witness by the Plaintiff on rebuttal, having been

duly sworn, testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Raise your right hand to be sworn,

please.

THE WITNESS: I do so swear.

THE CLERK: Be seated. Please, state your name and

spell your last name.

THE WITNESS: My name is Dr. Frank K. Flinn, F-l-i-n-n.

I live --

THE CLERK: Frank A.?

THE WITNESS: K.

4032

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I an going to move to strike

any testimony from this witness. I have read affidavits

of Dr. Flinn, I believe his title is, and I assume that

the purpose of this testimony is to say Scientology is a

religion, which the court has already recognized, so I

think it is totally irrelevant testimony.

THE COURT: I don't know. What is your witness going

to testify to, Mr. Litt?

MR. LITT: He is going to testify to several matters,

Your Honor, and not really -- I mean the court has already

found that Scientology is a religion.

What he will do is talk about his familiarity

with Scientology, various practices that have been placed

in issue in this case in the context of practices of a

variety of religions, including the distinction between

eclesiastical power and corporate ozganization and various

religious movements.

THE COURT: Well I will go ahead and let the

witness testify and we will see what happens. You may proceed.

I will overrule the objection.

MR. LITT: Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LITT:

Q Mr. Flinn, would you tell us what your

present occupation is.

A Okay. I am presently senior religion editor

with the Edwyn Mellen Press of Toronto and New York, and I

4033

do consultant work in ecumenical activities in regard to

dialogue between various religions.

Q Do you have any background or training in the

field of religion?

A Yes, I do.

Q And can you tell us what that is, please?

A Okay. I received my Bachelor of Arts degree in

philosophy, particularly in Medieval philosophy and partial

studies in psychology at Quincy College in Quincy, Illinois.

At that time I joined the Order of the

Friars Minor, known popularly as the Franciscans, and I

studied with the Franciscans until 1964.

I then attended Harvard Divinity School where

I took a Bachelor of Divinity degree in religion, and

subsequent to that time I studied at the Univeristy of

Heidelburg in Religious Studies and in philosophy, and then

I returned to the United States where I did a year's further

graduate work at Harvard Divinity, specializing in ancient

and Near Easter religion and also studied ancient and

Near Eastern religion at the University of Pennsylvania.

Subsequent to that time I taught for five

years and then I returned to the University of Toronto at

the University of St. Michael's College where I took a

doctorate in special religious studies, including Biblical

studies and I did a special division on new religious

movements.

Q And at Harvard Divinity, what place did you rank

in your class on graduation?

4034

A I graduated at the top of my class, magna cum

laude.

4035

Q Now, have you taught at all any courses in the

field of religion?

A Yes. I have taught many courses in the field

of religion.

I taught Biblical Studies at Newton College of

the Sacred Heart in Newton, Massachusettes.

I also taught Biblical Studies at Boston

College.

I taught courses in the Anthropology of Religion,

Religious Symbolism at LaSalle College in Philadelphia in

the summers from 1969 to 1973.

I was tutoring in Comparative Religion at the

University of Toronto in 1975.

I taught courses in American Religious Phenomenon,

plus many other types of courses, at St. Louis University

from '77 to '79.

MR. FLYNN: I have no objection to the witness'

qualifications, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Let's go forward, we don't need to spend

a lot of time on qualifications, counsel.

BY MR. LITT: You yourself, Dr. Flinn -- well,

let me ask one other background question.

In the context of your religious studies have

you mastered various languages to enable you to study

religious movements in history?

A Many ancient languages, yes; Greek, Hebrew,

Samarian, Arcadian, Latin.

I have also acquired the basics of one American

4036

Indian language when I was studying American Indian Religions

plus many modern languages.

Q And you yourself are a Roman Catholic?

A I am a practicing Roman Catholic.

Q At some time in the course of your study of

various religions did you do any investigation into the

subject of Scientology?

A Yes; as part of my -- I first got acquainted with

new religious movements in general when I taught the course

on the anthropology of religion at LaSalle, a graduate study

of religion, from 1969 on where I had students do field

reports and types of religious activities going on in

Philadelphia.

Subsequent to that time I did formal study of

a variety of newer religious phenomenon in doing my doctoral

studies among which was Scientology.

Q Can you tell the Court at this point what

opportunity have you had to study the subject of Scientology?

A I first became acquainted -- I knew about

Scientology already in 1970, but I had no particular direct

interest.

About 1976, I met -- interviewing a variety of

things that were going on in Toronto itself -- I met some

Scientologists. In the course of my doctoral study I started

getting interested in Scientology, whether or not it was even

a religion. I didn't know what kind of real phenomenon it

was.

I began reading the basic writings of Scientology,

4037

Dianetics, the fundamentals of thought. And subsequent to

that time I have read most of the basic Scientology writings

and done research into it.

I have also done -- at one point in 1979 I became

very formally interested in Scientology, And I conducted

a type of interview that I call a spiritual autobiography

where I tried to trace the life course of someone's faith

development which is a type of interview, I did 20 of those

interviews which were about three hours long with different

Scientologists.

I have subsequently interviewed many, many

Scientologists on a more informal basis about how they joined

the religion; how they joined; what motivated them to join;

what they saw in the religion; what the religion did for

them; how they described their meanings of their lives in

terms of their commitment to this movement. I have done this

type of interview with other groups too.

Q Approximately how many -- you indicated that you

did 20 formal interviews?

A Yes.

Q Approximately how many additional less formal

interviews have you been able to do?

A I have not kept close tabs on that, but it is

over 100 more informal ones.

I try to interview anyone I can meet.

Q Have you also visited any Scientology facilities

in order to observe the activities there?

A I have observed closely the Scientology Center

4038

in Toronto when I was doing my doctoral work. I observed

the Scientology facility, training procedures in St. Louis

and in Portland when I was there once and here in Los Angeles

and in Clearwater, Florida.

Q And have you recently published anything on the

subject of Scientology?

A Yes. I have a recent article which appeared in

a volume edited by Joseph Fichter, F-i-c-h-t-e-r, called

"Alternatives to Mainline Churches" which just recently

appeared last fall.

The title of the article is "Scientology is

Technological Buddhism."

4039

Q And is this the only article you have written

on the subject of Scientology?

A This is the only article directly on Scientology

itself.

Q And how many articles, without going into what

they all are, approximately how many articles in the

field of religion have you published?

A At least 25. I have not counted my list

recently. I have many more to add. My vitae is always

behind me.

Q Now, very briefly what are the characteristics

in your judgment that define a religion?

A In general, I use a general definition of

religion which I have arrived at from empirical study of

a variety of religions, both ancient and modern, and my

definition of religion is that religion has to contain a

system of beliefs, and these beliefs must be carried out in

what would traditionally be called practices of a spiritual

or religious nature.

I divide those practices into two different

kinds of practices. There are more ethical types of

practices which entail negative commands and positive

commands, taboos and positive urges.

This belief system and these practices, in

turn, serve to shape and form the spiritual life of an

identifiable community that has a commitment to some ultimate

reality.

Q And you have observed that Scientology meets

4040

these characteristics?

A Yes. I think Scientology definitely has a

belief system. That belief system is expressed in what

Scientology calls the creed of Scientology. I see the

essence of that creed residing in the conception that

human beings are what Scientologists call Thetans and which

is in traditional religious language means that they have

immortal souls, undying spirits.

Scientologists have both positive and negative

ethical types of commands and also ceremonial types

of activities. Their principal ceremonial life is expressed

through what they call auditing, which is a practice of,

they describe as a process of moving up the bridge through

the auditing process which has various grades of spiritual

perfection, very much like the types of spiritual contemplation

that one sees in the religious treatises of St. Ignatius'

"spiritual exerciser" and also of St. Bonaventure's "Journey

of the mind onto God."

The Church of Scientology seems to have --

definitely has what would be described as a heirarchical as

opposed to congregational religious organization.

Q Now can you describe for us the difference

between heirarchical and congregational form of religion

as that operates in various religious movements?

A The prevalent form of religious organization

historically in the United States has been what is known as

the congregational, and in congregational church policy,

such as you find generally among Presbyterians and Methodists

4041

and Baptists, is a polity where the congregation makes

decisions as a group.

Generally they have either boards of elders or

elected types of officials where the congregation or

parish itself makes decisions of what shall be the faith and

practices and organizations of a local congregation.

In heirarchical relision you have religious

figures -- in congregational, one way of describing is

authority is exercised on a horizontal way, out from the

parish in a more horizontal type of fashion.

In heirarchical religion authority is exercised

from the top down, and in heirarchical religion, you have

religious figures like popes or bishops or central religious

leaders who generally have under than various officers,

various divisions or compartments for the exercising of

authority from the top down.

The classic example of a heirarchical religion

has always been, according to scholars, the Roman Catholic

Church.

Q Just by way of reference, can you give some

other examples of heirarchical religions, not describe them,

but just name them as opposed to congregational religions?

A The Greek Orthodox Church which has a

patriarch and bishops under the patriarch would be described

as a hierarchical religion.

The Anglican Church of England would be, and

I suppose Episcopal churches in a different kind of way, but

they are still heirarchical. They have bishops in authority

4042

and the preservation of faith and doctrine is carried on

through offices of religious leaders like bishops, and

the Bhuddist --

4043

Buddhism itself has bishops. And it varies from

country to country.

In the Far East Buddhists also have Bishops who

exercise authority over the Sanghas or the monasteries below

them.

Q Now, have you had the opportunity to understand

what the word "scriptures" means within the context of

Scientology?

A Scientology has many, many writings.But

Scientologists seem to hold all of the writings of L. Ron

Hubbard or anything identifiable as the tech to be the

equivalent of their sacred scripture. That includes also

all of the policy statements that are collected in this long

series of volumes that are known as the "Green Books."

So it is in terms of tech and management manuals

plus the writings such as Dianetics, which is prelude to

Scientology, Scientology, Fundamentals of Thought; all of

these volumes are held to contain the scriptures for

Scientologists.

Q And in your understanding you have had the

opportunity to read and review these materials in large

part?

A It would take a lifetime to read all of the

Scientology literature.

I have read most of the basic books. And I have

sampled and surveyed most of the Red and Green Volumes at

various times.

Q And from what you have been able to observe from

4044

your study, can the Scientology scriptures be understood in

isolation from each other, or what approach is needed in order

to get an understanding of what the meaning of the scriptures

of Scientology is?

A It is very difficult to understand Scientology

because I myself found difficulty in the beginning because

they seem to use ordinary language in a very specialized type

of sense. And I found out that I had to reserve making

judgment about whether or not it was even, indeed, a religion

itself when I first began to study it until I had surveyed

a rather vast amount of material.

It is very easy to take some very controversial

points and focus on them. But one has to see how all the

parts fit together. And this is true with any other type

of religious scripture.

The Bible, one can take little passages out of

the Bible and sometimes even be upset by that unless you see

it in its context. It is very important to find out what

the contexts are in Scientology.

Q In the course of your study of religions have

you had the opportunity to take note of the role of a

charismatic leader in the formation and development of a

religion?

A Well, when I first did my interviews with

Scientologists, I found out that Mr. Hubbard seems to have

the function of a religious founder.

They call him "The Researcher," a friend that

has all of the characteristics of a charismatic leader.

4045

And traditionally, scholarship has identified

various religions, some as being bureaucratic-type religions,

organizational-type religions, and some as being religions

that had their beginnings in a charismatic-type movement.

Many people would say that Christianity today

is a kind of organizational religion. But in the early days

Christianity had what was called a charismatic leader.

L. Ron Hubbard seems to fit into the category

of a charismatic inaugurating figure, very much like the

Buddha or Buddhism or Moses for Judaism or Jesus for the

varieties of Christianity.

Also, he shares many kinds of characteristics

within Christianity of founders of religious orders.

Examples would be St. Francis of Assisi;

St. Ignatius of Loyola; St. Benedict, the founder of the

Benedictines.

4046

Q And where a charismatic leader of the type

that you talked about plays a role within a religious movement,

what are the main functions that that person plays?

A This person is generally seen as someone who

has an extraordinary perception of the ultimate reality,

someone who has a vision of ultimate truth, someone who has

achieved, for example, you could use St. Francis as an

example, a perfect immitation of Jesus Christ, someone who

has extraordinary powers of perception and vision of the

future. Those kinds of things that will generate a following.

Q And do such leaders play a role in the

development of cohesiveness for the religion?

A Yes, specially during the lifetimes. They

become the center of focus of the faith of the community,

and they retain what one would call a status of reference

for those who adhere to this movement.

Q I want to ask you some questions with respect

to some historical examples that parallel certain issues in

this case.

Let me ask you about St. Francis of Assisi

who was one of the persons that you mentioned. What role

did he originally play within the Franciscan Order?

A St. Francis --

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I have tried not to object,

but we are now -- Assisi is what, 12th or 11th Century, and

we are now in the 20th.

THE COURT: I think we can abridge this a little bit.

MR. LITT: This will be very brief, but it does have

4047

a very important purpose as the court will see.

THE COURT: All right, go ahead. We will see what

happens.

THE WITNESS: There are certain analogies between

the life course of Francis of Assisi and L. Ron Hubbard.

Francis of Assisi was the founder of what is now known as

the Franciscan Order.

THE COURT: Is he the gentleman that eschewed poverty?

THE WITNESS: That is right; that followed poverty,

Your Honor.

I am not talking about their teaching; about

their life course. St. Francis founded the Order of the

Friars Minor and he stressed poverty intensely, but the

parallel between his life and the life of L. Ron Hubbard

is that he was originally the founder of the religious order,

and he received the title when the Order was approved by the

papacy. He received the title of Minister of the Order

or Servant General of the Order, and toward the end of

his life in -- toward the end of his life, he resigned

from being Minister of the Order and retained the role in

the status in the function of being the founder of the Order,

and all the friars called him Father, and he was the only

one that had the title of Father for the Order. In terms

of his life course doctrine, it was very much the opposite

of the doctrines of other religions.

Q BY MR. LITT: Now, after St. Francis resigned

from the title of Minister in his position as Father, did

he play any role in affecting the Francisca Order?

4048

A Immediately after he resigned which was

around, in terms -- it is hard to date it exactly, but

around 1220, the Franciscans by that time had spread all over

Europe. Somewhere around 30 to 40,000 Friars existed at

that time already, had a major chapter called the Chapter

of Mats, and a controversy arose within the Order whether

or not the Friars could own property collectively as a group

because up to that time they had taken vows of absolute

poverty individually and as a corporate group, and there were

various factions within the Order that were saying, "Well,

individually we, can't own property, but maybe collectively

we could own property."

And St. Francis was vehemently opposed to

the Friars owning property, either individually or collectively,

and he sent many messages to the Chapter of Mats and, in

fact, intervened as founder and said this would be

contrary to the essence of the religious vision of the way

of life that is in total immitation of Christ as he saw it,

and so he intervened directly in the decision, and the

Order subsequently decided the Chapter -- it was really

a convention of all Friars -- decided against collective

ownership through his intervention.

Q And was the fact of his intervention anything

unusual?

A No, not at all, particularly with someone who

is a religious founder. Many founders of religious orders,

particularly within the Roman Catholic tradition intervene

after they resign from executive positions because they were

4049

the ones who originally formulated the vision of faith

and doctrine.

4050

Q Now, after St. Francis resigned, was he provided

any material provisions by the Franciscan Order?

A The minister general following St. Francis

provided that he have Friars to go with him who were

secretaries; he was provided a place of residence.

The Friars collectively owned nothing. They had

lay people who owned their property for them and gave the

use of it to the Friars.

And he had the Poor Praying Sisters assigned to

cook his meals. It wasn't a very glorious existence, but

he did have people assigned to take care of him out of

reverence for the fact that he had been the founder.

Q Was he also provided a Church?

A He had the Church of San Damiano assigned for

his particular use.

Q Now, there has been discussion in this case

concerning the subject of corporate integrity; can you tell

me how is the typical Archdiocese of a Catholic Archdiocese

incorporated in the United States?

A If one examines, for example, the record of

incorporation of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles one would

find that the Archbishop of Los Angeles functions as a

corporation soul for the diocese. As the chief executive

officer of the Roman Catholic Church, by the corporate soul

is meant the sole possessor and administrator of all diocesan

properties, goods, and services in the Archdiocese of

Los Angeles.

That is a kind of direct immediate function of

4051

an Archbishop.

Q Within the corporation soul is there anybody else

who in a corporate sense as far as you are aware has any

status corporately?

A Bishops have committees of advisors, but who do

not have the power. The power resides in the bishop. All

the power resides in the bishop except the bishop serves at

the permission of the Pope in Rome. All bishops are appointed

by Rome.

Q Let me ask you about that.

Describe whether or not the Pope has any power

to affect the separate corporation that is incorporated such

as the Archdiocese of Los Angeles?

A This has happened historically.

If a bishop were found to be controvening faith

and doctrine and morals and bringing scandal to the Church

and his diocese or if he became entangled in an enormous

financial difficulty or some other kind of scandalous

activity, that bishop could be removed by the Pope in Rome

and someone put in his place to assume the function of

administrator for the diocese.

And this would be so even if the bishop

objected?

A That would be even if the bishop objected.

Q And even though the bishop is the sole

administrator and incorporator --

A In Roman Catholicism a bishop is the administrator

of his immediate diocese, but the Pope is like the pastor

4052

of all diocese; the real ultimate pastor of all diocese is

the papacy, the Pope.

Q And is this pursuant to ecclesiastical law that

this relationship --

A These provisions are contained in what is known

as the Corpus Juris Conic, C-o-r-p-u-s J-u-r-i-s C-o-n-i-c,

which means the body of the Canon Law,

And there are various sections of the body of

Canon Law that detail how bishops and archbishops are assigned

their powers at the behest of the papacy.

Q And if there is a vacancy in an archdiocese, who

is it that has the power to appoint a person to be the new

archbishop?

A Solely that perogative belongs solely to the

Pope.

Q So that is passed down ecclesiastically?

A Yes. That is what we call an ecclesiastical line

of authority as opposed to a corporate or incorporated

exercise of authority.

Q Is this relationship replicated in any way at

lower levels within the Catholic Church?

A Well, the pastor of a local parish is assigned

by his bishop; so it is exactly parallel here. But the

immediate pastor of all parishes is not really pastor serving

in that function. The immediate pastor is assumed to be the

bishop. And the local pastor is in the place of the bishop

himself.

4053

Q So under Roman Catholic eclesiastical law the

bishop has the power to appoint or remove pastors of local

churches?

A That is right.

Q Is that irrespective of any corporate

arrangements?

A That would be irrespective of any corporate

arrangements.

Q Now, does the Pope have the power to require

payment of moneys to the Vatican?

A Yes. Every diocese throughout the world,

but most especially the diocese in the United States since

they are the wealthiest diocese in the world, are assigned

what is know as a cathedraticum, and these are eclesiastical

taxes for the support of the Vatican itself and for the

mission of the church at large throughout the world,

particularly in the mission lands. There are various types

of taxes collected.

Once a year there is s collection that is

called Peter's Pence. Throughout the United States and

throughout the world that is assessed to all parishes and

all members of the faith, and that money is forwarded

directly to the Vatican for the support of the offices of

the Vatican and for various functions of the papacy.

There are also other types of taxes that are

assessed, particularly for the propagation of the faith

which is also administered through the Vatican.

Q And does the Vatican place weight on the need

4054

to raise money?

A Yes. I mean, people are in the Code of Canon

Law there are provisions assigning -- the way to state

that in common language would be to say if a bishop refused

to pay the universal church taxes, he would be in severe

trouble.

Q And this power of the Pope is also pursuant to

canon law, eclesiastical law?

A That is right. That is eclesiastical law.

Q And can the Pope require special collections

of moneys?

A Yes. There are many various types of special

collections that periodically become urgent like collections

for relief of various churches in poor countries. Those

can be assigned by the Pope.

Q And the Pope has this authority throughout the

world regardless of the corporate setup of the particular

Catholic church or arch diocese in the various countries?

A That is right.

Q Can the Pope pursuant to eclesiastical

law affect organization or administration of Catholic arch-

diocese or churches?

A The various organizational structures of the

church, they vary somewhat from country to country and they

also vary according to the relationship between church and

state in each country, but generally there are standardized

forms and those standardized forms are pursuant to the body

of Canon law, also known as the Code of Canon Law which

4055 - 56

is the code directly formulated and approved by the papacy

itself, and so that directly affects administration of

the church throughout the world.

Q And can the Pope affect the individuals who

are appointed to administrative posts within archdiocese?

A There are many complex ways that is effected.

The papacy, for example, must approve of certain types of

appointments to officers in an archdiocese such as the

appointment of a chancellor, the appointment of the chaplain

to nuns, the appointment of rectors of seminaries are all

types of appointments which nominations are made by bishops

but approval must also come from Rome.

Q And this is also pursuant to ecclesiastical

law?

A That is right.

Q Now, let me ask the question this way: Is

there such a thing called an Apostolic Delegate that can be

found in various countries?

A in the United States the Pope's personal

representative to the church in the United States, now

assuming a different function, he will become an official

diplomat recognized by the United States political

arrangement, it is called the Apostolic Delegate and in other

countries that person is called the Papal Nuncio. The word

"Nuncio" means messenger or announcer, and would be called

ambassador in secular language of the pope to a country

and to the church in that country.

Q And among the functions of the Apostolic Delegate

4057

Papal Nuncio, are their responsibilities to make determinations

for submission to the Pope as to whether the Pope should

intervene?

A That is right. Each year every diocese is

required to submit a report on the diocese and the Apostolic

Delegate also collects his own information about the

running of the church in the various diocese throughout the

United States and reports are made to Rome, and if problems

would exist, both fiscal and spiritual problems; that is

problems in terms of faith and morals and problems in terms

of financial arrangements, reports are made to Rome, and

if a case became severe, the papacy could and has intervened

with the appointment of Apostolic administrators.

4058

Q And if that does occur, does that person have

the authority under ecclesiastical law to assume all functions

within --

A If the Vatican saw fit, if the case were urgent

enough and the Vatican saw fit, that person could be appointed

total administrator of a diocese.

Q Does the Pope also have the power to send

missions into various archdiocese?

A Yes. In the United States now there is a special

papal commission that is examining all the educational

facilities of all seminaries for the training of priests

throughout the United States. This commission is going from

diocese to diocese throughout the United States compiling

a report which will be filed with the Vatican when they are

finished.

And the local churches are required under Canon

Law to cooperate in any way required?

A That is right.

Q By the way, does the Catholic Church have any

form of collecting information that it feels is important

for its own survival or benefit?

A Yes. Each diocese is part of a metropolitan

diocese; that is, ordinary bishops are under a metropolitan,

generally called an archbishopric; for example, Los Angeles

is the Metropolitan Diocese of the Bishopric in San Diego.

Q And the metropolitan -- each individual bishop

makes reports and each metropolitan makes reports on the

bishoprics within its domain and these reports are all sent

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in to Rome?

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, are we going to study the

Catholic Church? Is all of this before or after the

Pope resigned?

MR. LITT: Your Honor, this is all in the context of

putting in perspective the question of the relationship within

Scientology, which we'll get to, within ecclesiastical lines

and corporate integrity. Because there has been an issue

made of corporate integrity with respect to Scientology

which operates as a hierarchical religion just as does the

Catholic Church. And accordingly, this information, I think,

is clearly relevant to put in perspective the traditional

practices within religious movements of the relationship

between ecclesiastical law and corporate individuality.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, there is a simple answer to

that. And it is that civil authority with regard to issues

of inurement and maintenance of corporate integrity has

nothing to do with ecclesiastical law. And if we were to

spend the next week studying the potential analogs between

one religion and the Church of Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard,

it would be an exercise in frivolity.

The simple issue is whether or not Mr. Hubbard

under the civil laws of the United States violated those

civil laws with regard to his activities and conduct,

particularly with regard to financial arrangements of these

organizations. And he has already, in several tax years,

been found to have done that. And I have the decision here

with me. And the tax years from 1970 to 1980 are all now

4060

under review.

THE COURT: It seems to me that we are -- it may be

that the Catholic Church is a hierarchical organization.

And it way be that Hubbard's conception of Scientology is

also a hierarchical organization. But we have gone along

with this for quite some time now.

You'll have 10 minutes to wind up this business

on the Catholic Church and how it night relate to Scientology

organizationally.

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor. I only have a bit