Gerry Armstrong--Reporters Transcript of Proceedings 05-16-1984 LASC 420153

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SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DEPARTMENT NO. 57 HON. PAUL G. BRECKENRIDGE, JR., JUDGE

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA,

Plaintiff,

vs.

GERALD ARMSTRONG,

Defendant.

MARY SUE HUBBARD,

Intervenor.

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No. C 420153

REPORTERS' DAILY TRANSCRIPT

Wednesday, May 16, 1984

VOLUME 13

Pages 2031-2173, incl.

APPEARANCES

(See Volume 11)

NANCY L. HARRIS, CSR #644
HERB CANNON, CSR #1923
Official Reporters

I

INDEX FOR VOLUME 13		Pages 2031-2173, incl.

DAY	DATE		PAGE

Wednesday	May 16, 1984	A.M.	2031
		P.M.	2097

WITNESS

DEFENSE:	DIRECT	CROSS

ARMSTRONG, Gerald
(resumed)	2031-F	2085-L
(resumed)		2097-L

EXHIBITS

PLAINTIFF'S:		FOR IDENTIFICATION

23- book, "Scientology: A World Religion Emerges in the Space Age"		2169
DEFENSE:
500 6S 500 6T 500 6U 500 6V 500 6W 500 6X 500 6Y 500 6Z 500 7A 500 7B 500 7C	- Black binder #276 - Yellow piece of paper & letter, 4-24-59 - letter, 9-25-73 & photographs - Small card with writing & 2-page document - 10-page handwritten letter to Explorers Club - Copies of 2 letters & attachments - 1-page report 12-21-76 & document 12-19-76 - letter 11-15-41, letter 4-1-46, 6 sheets blank stationery & certificate - 4-page, 3-page & 2-page documents - 2-page letter 5-25-52 & 4-page letter 6-14-52 - documents 10-29-81, 15 pages	2044 2063 2063 2066 2066 2066 2066 2066 2068 2069 2069

II

INDEX FOR VOLUME 13 (Continued)

EXHIBITS

500 7D

500 7E

500 7F

500 7G

500 7H

500 7I

500 7J

AAA

BBB

CCC

- 1-page letter 11-17-80

- 2-page handwritten letter

- 2-page handwritten document

- NOT USED

- Copy of 1-page letter 7-29-80

- Two copies of documents "Data on L. Ron Hubbard"

- 2-page document 3-31-68, copy of note
4-4-68 and 1-page letter 3-20-68

- Copy of 2-page document 12-16-69

- Copy of document "Intelligence and Security"

- Copies of three dedications to Alexis
Valerie Hubbard in books by Hubbard

2069

2069

2069

2069

2069

2069

2047

2073

2138

2031

Los Angeles, California; Wednesday, May 16, 1984; 9:47 a.m.

---0---

THE COURT: All right, in the case on trial let the

record reflect that counsel are present.

GERALD ARMSTRONG,

resumed the stand, having been previously sworn, testified

further as follows:

THE COURT: The witness has retaken the stand. Just

state your name again for the record, sir. You are still

under oath.

THE WITNESS: Gerald Armstrong.

THE COURT: You may continue, Mr. Flynn.

MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)

BY MR. FLYNN:

Q Now, Mr. Armstrong, do you recall letters that

were written by Mr. Hubbard to the FBI and the Defense

Department in the mid-1950's relative to Mr. Hubbard selling

brainwashing techniques to the FBI which you sent to me?

A I sent you letters from that period which my

recollection is were letters from Mr. Hubbard to the FBI and

to other government agencies, and I do recall letters to the

Defense Department. I don't know if Mr. Hubbard in those

letters stated that he was selling brainwashing to them.

2032

At times he claimed that he had a way of combating

brainwashing. At other times it appears that he had the

brainwashing technology. I don't recall the way it is used

in these letters. But it is on the subject of mental

technology. And the term "brainwashing" or something similar

is used within those letters.

Q And for what reason did you send that to me, those

letters?

A They evidenced Mr. Hubbard's continuing paranoia

which was from the 1940's through into the '50's and beyond.

And they showed that Mr. Hubbard was claiming at that point

to governmental personnel that the subject was a science;

they showed contradictions between what he has claimed in

other places publicly what Scientology is and what he was

involved in and what his intentions were.

Q And are some of those materials set forth in

exhibit 6C?

A Yes.

Q Turning now to exhibits 6E through 6Q which we

went through quickly yesterday which called for -- which

recited in Mr. Hubbard's handwriting that among other things,

he should find the unsavory part of a person's past and the

criminal activities of a person's past and pursue for

harassment and items of that nature, when you sent those to

me did you correlate the statements of Mr. Hubbard in those

documents to statements that he had made in what has been

marked exhibits 500 4D through 4G?

2033

MR. LITT: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: Those 4D through 4G are the documents

that we have called at various times the affirmations or the

admissions, and there are some parts of those documents which

were very significant to me, having to do with --

MR. LITT: Just a moment.

MR. FLYNN: Well, before you get into this, Your Honor,

I'm going to do this on a very step-by-step basis, and then

I will lay the foundation, and then I will inform the court

of just several lines in the documents that correlate to

these documents which the witness found extremely significant.

Q Now, did you find several statements by Mr. Hubbard

in exhibit 4D through 4G that correlated to statements he

had made in the 1960's pertaining to attacks on enemies and

the Fair Game Doctrine?

A Yes.

Q And those statements are in exhibits 4D through

4G; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And what was your state of mind, Mr. Armstrong,

when you found the documents in the 1960's in Mr. Hubbard's

handwriting relative to attacking enemies?

THE COURT: Maybe you better identify what are you

referring to now? Is this something in the 6 series?

MR. FLYNN: In exhibit 6.

THE COURT: Try to be a little more specific.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: 6E through 6Q.

2034

Now, in 6E you testified that Mr. Armstrong wrote

about finding the criminal part or past of a particular

individual; is that correct?

A Yes. It was Mr. Hubbard, yes.

This was a woman whose daughter had disconnected

from her pursuant to Scientology policy, and Mr. Hubbard had

ordered legal officer Branch 5 to investigate her past and

psychiatrists' past and find the criminal part -- criminal

past of these people.

Q Now at that time were you familiar with the Fair

Game Doctrine that has been marked as an exhibit to lie, sue,

cheat, and destroy enemies?

A Yes.

Q And in several other exhibits in Mr. Hubbard's

handwriting, did you find similar statements about finding

the unsavory side of their past with reference to enemies?

A Yes.

THE COURT: Now, what exhibit do you have before you?

MR. FLYNN: That is 6F.

MR. LITT: Where is the word "enemy"?

BY MR. FLYNN: And would you read that part which

refers to finding the unsavory side of their past?

MR. LITT: Let's have the whole paragraph.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

"As we are having local counsel

trouble, detach an investigator full time to

that situation with orders to isolate the two

or three members who give trouble and then to

2035

find the unsavory side of their past."

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, with regard to 6H did you

find similar statements in Mr. Hubbard's handwriting with

regard to 6H?

MR. LITT: What is the date of 6H?

MR. FLYNN: 16 December '66.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: Well, what specifically did you find in

that?

2036

Q BY MR. FLYNN: How many pages is 68,

Mr. Armstrong?

A It is approximately 20.

Q And are there specific statements or does the

document as a whole deal with attacking a particular

individual by a variety of means?

A Yes, they all have to do with attacking and the

use of the courts. The final paragraph reads:

"If we play this right, these

people go on trial, not us, and if we hit hard

enough with our statement, we may never even

have to appear in a courtroom."

Q Does that document also deal with finding

information about a person's past?

A Yes.

Q And is there a particular statement?

A There is here a number of -- those whole thing

refers to information which he wishes to make public about

these people and there are allegations if you want me to read

that.

Q Please do.

A (Reading:)

"Rather than just sue for libel,

additionally our statement of charges must

include the gory facts as follows: we have

attached to them from the Ministry of Health

a bitter man whom we have interviewed who goes

around sending people off for electric shocks

2037

in his opinion if they look depressed, and he

keeps a large number of the East Grinstead

population on heavy drugs to which there is

no end.

2038

"This can be added up into hypocrisy

and a grave concern.

"counsel has no grave concern over

the torture and death of their citizens by

psychiatrists despite the fact that these people

never get well after treatment.

"Psychiatry is a conspiracy to

injure people so as to extort funds.

"If we use -- I think it is --

"Werner's Demand, we have it in writing for

100,000 pounds. The bribe not to stampede

Parliament goes this way. He, a known blackmailer

and head of the community for national health

and national security, private group in Victoria.

"The theory behind our suits, the

theory in all of this is that we must state the

real problem and motive; only that blows it in

the third dynamic. We cannot defend as they can

come in with technology which can't be tried in

court; no technology can ever, as it is being

tried before laymen; thus, if we can force them

to countersue us for scare head charges, we can

prove they go into heaven; they are since tried

and not ours.

"We are very pale news copy. Theirs

is sensational, injury, murder, extortion,

insanity, misappropriation, aristocrat" -- I don't know

what the next word is -- "our objective is to cause

2039

Robinson to resign under a cloud just by filing

a suit, to cause psychiatry to be looked on as

an extortion racket that demands money under

the threat of torture.

"You'll find this will mob hysteria

people. And to cause Bal Neil and the connected

MP's to resign.

Q MP's is Ministers of Parliament?

A Members of Parliament.

"All of this on filing our suit

statement, when we have mopped up here, we'll

go to Victoria and overthrow that one; then,

South Africa and Rhodesia connection; thus, our

statement must be violent. A well-placed attack

should cause the enemy to prove our case by his

actions.

"Religious prejudice is horrid to

the English. So perchance that can be salted

in.

"In short, if we do this right,

we cause a political uproar, a stampede,

against psychiatrists and enough resignations

to make the enemy too weak to fight.

"If we merely defend, we have

only to keep to draw back to.

"Now is the time for all our

boiling oil before they batter in the main

gate.

2040

"The dishonest always have left

crimes lying around. So I set out to discover

them. When somebody attacks Scientology, it

happens accidentally. He almost always has a

criminal past. That is our good fortune for

all we need to do is expose it.

"So this is our basic theory

behind these current suits. They are savage

front line impact hitting at the real

intentions. If we hit hard enough, they won't

really recover; therefore, I have been working

out good screaming front-page news copy that

we can back up. We take us off the stand and

put them on. It will take a lot of impact.

This is not a court case. It is a filed

statements case.

"They went to government, that

private company, both national mental health

association, to hit us. So we have to remove

government from their line of attack.

"Counsel here used the NC planning" -- that

is, I believe, town and country planning -- "to

execute psychiatric attack on us. But how we

prove it, I am not sure.

"Right wing is a spit word in

world press today. So we must insert it where

we can.

"If we could write, but we can't,

2041

right wing torture groups run the largest multi-

billion dollar extortion racket in history.

"Would make world headlines.

"We can, however, insinuate it

any way we can. And thus snap left wing press

over on our side. If we play this right, these

people go on trial, not us, And if we hit hard

enough with our statements, we may never even

have to appear in a courtroom.

"The best.

"R.H."

2042

MR. LITT: Your Honor, may the record reflect that it

took Mr. Armstrong approximately 10 minutes and that he was

reading excerptions.

THE COURT: Well, I don't know what the time was, but

he did read. He left portions out. He read excerpts.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, we'd be more than happy to have

the whole document go into evidence.

THE C0URT: Let's not worry about that. Let's just

go on to the next question.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, Mr. Armstrong, in exhibit 500

6J starting under paragraph eight, do you recognize that to

be in the handwriting of L. Ron Hubbard?

A Yes.

Q And did you find similar times of requests by

Mr. Hubbard to the organization to engage in the type of

activity that you just read; namely, finding criminal past

and activity of people to expose them?

A Yes.

Q And would you read that, please?

A There is a point here, number four, in a program

on handling this particular problem of -- it is an order to

Mary Sue, and he is hiring a Pinkerton detective and one of

the points is:

"We want evidence of collusion

between the person who signed the warrant for

Smith or his superiors and the APA or AMA" -- American

Psychiatric Association or American Medical Association --

"We want the name of every doctor who sought to

2043

get into this case and we want that doctor's

background. Trace it if possible to Communist

connections or orders from APA under AMA.

"The operative should understand

that we have been harassed by anti-American

interests in many past cases and that this

investigation is a routine assurance that we

always take. We have traced 18 out of 22 persons

publicly attacking us to criminal or Communist

backgrounds."

This is the part you were referring to?

Q And is there a part in Mr. Hubbard's handwriting

where he states that:

"He should also understand that

we are no crackpots. I am ex-B-3 of ONI. We

hold the only systems that can raise pilot

reaction time, increase the intelligence of

scientists and counter-brainwash. Russia has

been too interested in us since 1938 when they

offered $100,000 for the basic use of Dianetics

which when published in U.S. were hard hit by

Commi-connected persons."

Now, in these documents in referring to that

document 500 6I, 6K, 6L, 6M, which says "don't defend; attack,"

6N, 6O, relating to modifications of Fair Game, 6P --

MR. LITT: Your Honor, 6O -- Mr. Flynn -- the Court

ruled yesterday that 6O was privileged. Mr. Flynn

conveniently --

2044

MR. FLYNN: Strike 6O.

THE COURT: Strike the comment.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: 6P, "The suit is tactical. It

is not in hope of gain. We must attack"; 6Q and 6R, and

without going through the specific references in each and

6S dated October 8, 1961 relating to Michael Plynn and a

psychiatrist named Dr. John Clark.

Now, when you found those materials, were you

aware of the existence of the Fair Game Doctrine?

A Yes.

Q And at that time were you aware of the policy

of the organization to cull PC files, auditing files to

collect information from people such as yourself?

A Yes.

MR. LITT: Such as yourself at the time? What are we

talking about?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Well, throughout the period of

time that you were involved in the organization, Mr. Armstrong,

did you understand that it was a regular practice to cull

auditing files and gain information on people such as

yourself?

A I only learned of that practice in 19 -- late

1975.

Q And how did you learn of the practice?

A I was working in the Guardian's office in Daytona

Beach and I saw a great deal of correspondence, both Telex

and written correspondence, which concerned people who were

viewed as enemies or potential threats in the correspondence

back and forth contained information taken from their PC files.

2045

Q And a PC file is what?

A During the process of auditing a person, a PC

or preclear is asked questions by another person, and auditor,

while the pre-clear holds the electrodes of an electronic

mechanism which is basically a lie detector which measures

galvanic skin response and other reactions. And the person,

the PC, answers the auditors questions. And the questions

can concern any part of his life, his history, his family,

his thoughts, virtually every aspect, every person he has

ever known, any familial connections, anyone of any

significance in his life; any incident in his life. And all

of this is written down in longhand in note form by the

auditor complete with time, place, form, and event. And under

some circumstances, when a Sec Check is being done, a lot

of details are gathered so that the exact time, who knew about

it, who was there, who should have known about it, any crimes,

anything for which the person can be blackmailed, all of this

stuff is recorded and those form the PC files, the auditing

reports.

Q Now, at some time did you learn that there was

a routine practice and a policy to cull those PC files by --

cull the auditing files by the Guardian's office and collect

that information to be used against the people who had been

audited?

A I learned of the practice when I was in the

Guardian's office in late 1975.

In 1976 and 1977 I was in the RPF in Clearwater.

And we were continually ordered to cull individuals' PC files,

2046

people who either asked to leave or were viewed as a potential

threat for whatever reason.

And anyone who asked to leave, their folders were

culled for any crimes, for anything embarrassing, anything

for which they could be blackmailed; a list of such crimes

or incidents was typed up into a statement which the person

had to sign before he could leave.

So I knew in 1975 of the practice of culling

folders.

In 1976, '77, I was engaged in it on a continual

basis as ordered by the Guardian's office.

In 1978 in La Quinta I also participated in it.

And it wasn't until after leaving the organization

that I saw a written order concerning that policy.

But I had been -- I knew that it was the policy.

And I participated in it; was ordered to participate in it

for several years prior to that.

Q And that was one of the reasons that you left

without routing out; is that correct, knowing that you would

be forced to participate in that?

A That is correct.

Q And is this document under the name of Mary Sue

Hubbard the policy that you saw later with regard to culling

PC files?

MR. LITT: I'll object, Your Honor. If he didn't see

it when he was in the Church of Scientology of California,

what relevance does it have to anything that has to do with

this case?

2047

THE COURT: Maybe to confirm the other part of his

testimony. I don't know what this is.

It is two pages of paper, printing.

THE WITNESS: Yes. This is the program order that I

saw there.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you wish to see it, Mr. Litt?

MR. LITT: No. I have seen it from you before,

Mr. Flynn.

MR. FLYNN: May it be marked as next in order, Your

Honor?

THE COURT: Okay. AAA.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, on the second page of that

policy it states, does it not, to --

MR. HARRIS: I'll object to what it states, Your Honor.

This witness, after he leaves the organization,

apparently gets this from Mr. Flynn who has passed it to

Mr. Litt as well.

MR. FLYNN: I'll withdraw it.

Q Is it your understanding, Mr. Armstrong, that

that policy is consistent with the testimony you have just

provided to the court?

A Yes.

Q What are processing files?

A Processing files are the auditing reports, PC

folders, PC files.

2048

Q Now, when you read the handwritten papers of

Mr. Hubbard and became aware of Mr. Hubbard's instructing

the organization to find a criminal past among other things,

and when you were aware in 1980-81 of the practice of culling

auditing files by the organization to use as you testified

for purposes of blackmail, did you correlate that to statements

made by Mr. Hubbard in exhibit 4D through 4G, 500 4d through

500 4G?

A Yes.

Q And what statement or statements did you correlate

it to?

MR. LITT: Objection; is this a question about 4D

et cetera or is this a question about 6?

THE COURT: I am not sure.

What do you mean by "correlate"?

BY MR. FLYNN: Did you understand that the practice

to use information about a person's past was used to control

the person and to attack them mercilessly?

A Yes.

Q And did you find evidence of that in 4D through

4G?

MR. LITT: Just a yes or no.

THE COURT: You can answer it yes, no, or you don't

know.

THE WITNESS: I need to qualify it a little bit.

THE COURT: All right.

THE WITNESS: I did not find within 4D onwards the use

of PC folders because that came later, but I did find

2049

information on the --- Mr. Hubbard's intention to be merciless

toward people who countered him and his statement that he

had the right to be merciless.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: And did you find a statement that

"men are my slaves"?

MR. LITT: Just a moment, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. Let's get

the document out, what exhibit you have reference to. Let

counsel see it and we will have a preliminary inquiry on

whether --

MR. FLYNN: This will be the last reference, I believe,

to this document.

MR. HARRIS: Thank goodness.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: While Miss Hart is trying to find

that, Mr. Armstrong, was it your understanding from 1975

onward that Mr. Hubbard used information from PC files to

control members of the organization?

A Yes.

Q And did you see that on a regular basis?

A Yes.

MR. LITT: You saw Mr. Hubbard?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: The organization on the orders

of Mr. Hubbard; did you see that on a regular basis?

A Yes.

Q And can you find the reference?

And on 4D what is the eighth --

THE COURT: Do you have this exhibit 4D?

MR. LITT: Eighth page? My 4d has two parts to it.

2050

MR. FLYNN: There is no numbering.

THE COURT: Yes, it starts with "forced to" at the top.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: And on 4F --

THE COURT: Well, let's do one thing at a time.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, after the court looks at it,

I think we are going to have to look at your copy.

2051

THE COURT: Have counsel had a chance to find it?

MR. HARRIS: We're not sure where it is, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You can approach the bench over here and

you can refer to the Court's exhibit.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, to save time, they might want

to look at this part while they are at it.

I have a few more foundational questions, Your

Honor, and then I would like to read the one sentence

starting with "Men" and the other sentence starting with

"You can be. . ."

THE COURT: Well, what are your questions that you want

to ask?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Mr. Armstrong, after you left the

organization you knew that a Suppressive Person Declare had

been issued on you; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And I take it you were aware of the practice of

culling PC files?

A Yes.

Q And was it your belief at the time that the

organization had culled your auditing files?

A Yes.

Q And when you left the organization before the

SP Declare was issued on you, what was your state of mind

with regard to whether or not the organization would use those,

PC files against you?

A I hoped that they wouldn't, but I recognized that

it was very likely.

2052

Q Now, is your entire life history and virtually

every incident that you have been involved in in your life

set forth in those PC files?

A Yes.

Q And when you were working or between 1980 and

1981 did you begin to have a developing awareness that you

had been the slave of L. Ron Hubbard while you were working

for $4 a week, 100 hours a week?

MR. LITT: Your Honor, this --

MR. HARRIS: His opinion, I guess,

MR. LITT: This is ridiculous. I mean --

THE COURT: It depends on the eye of the beholder what

is ridiculous and what is not.

MR. LITT: Mr. Armstrong was voluntarily in the church

while he was in the church. If he regrets it now, he is

entitled to do so.

But are we going to have in testimony that he

was a slave while he was in the church?

THE COURT: I suppose it is a conclusion.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, it does relate to the issue

that Mr. Armstrong relied on extensive representations of

Mr. Hubbard. Whether he was voluntarily in the church goes

to whether he was defrauded and believed those representations

to be true and later found them to be false.

The element of voluntariness goes to the element

of misrepresentation.

MR. LITT: Which goes exactly to the religious fraud

issue that we have said all along which is really at the heart

2053

of this theory.

MR. FLYNN: Whether L. Ron Hubbard is a nuclear

physicist?

THE COURT: Gentlemen, you get off on these little

tangents and get me away from the point we are trying to

resolve.

Let's go back and have the question read.

(The pending question was read.)

MR. LITT: I think the court sustained the objection.

THE COURT: It is a compound question as well as

conclusionary; it is rather leading as well.

BY MR. FLYNN: What, if any, understanding did

you have in connection with your working for L. Ron Hubbard

between 1980 and 19817

MR. HARRIS: We have been through this. This has been

asked and answered before about a half dozen times.

He thought he was working for L. Ron Hubbard.

THE COURT: I am not sure that is what counsel wants

to develop at this time, having in mind his previous question.

BY MR. FLYNN: Specifically with reference to

exhibit 4D through 4G --

MR. HARRIS: I'll object. 352 at this point, for sure,

Your Honor.

It is now cumulative and prejudicial. It

outweighs any relevance. He has been through all of this

before.

THE COURT: When did you first read these documents

2054

4D and 4E?

THE WITNESS: sometime in 1980.

THE COURT: Well, did that create any impression in

your mind about your status in the church or in your

relationship with Hr. Hubbard?

THE WITNESS: Your Honor, from that point onward there

was a continuing and a growing awareness that I had been used

and that I had continued to be used and that I had through

representations and various physical and mental mechanisms,

had been virtually enslaved by the man.

THE COURT: Ask your next question.

BY MR. FLYNN: And did you correlate that to

Mr. Hubbard's intentions which he set forth in his writing

in 1946 as set forth in exhibit 4D and 4E?

MR. LITT: I'll object, Your Honor. It is absolutely

impossible for a reasonable person to draw any conclusions

from those documents about this issue and what intentions

are expressed.

The Court has read it and cannot reasonably draw

a conclusion about what it means; so whatever conclusions

Mr. Armstrong drew have to have been from other things. And

under Section 352, we would ask that testimony of this be

excluded. It is not reasonable. It is -- you can't reasonably

construe that statement to mean anything.

The beginning of one of them, it says, "You are

not accountable for anything that is said here."

So how is it that one can reasonably be relying

on this?

2055

Whatever Mr. Armstrong relied on, it is not this.

And it is just an effort to get into what is extremely private

and it should not be allowed. And it is not particularly

germane to this case.

I just don't think that the court should permit

this constant effort to sort of push and push here and there

to try to get portions of this document in.

2056

THE COURT: Well I think that the witness should be

permitted and can be permitted to testify as to what his

state of mind was. What his belief is and whether or not

it is reasonable, that is for the court to conclude at a later

date. If these had some bearing upon his state and mind and

why he did what he did, it seems to me it is relevant and

admissible. So, I will overrule the objection.

MR. LITT: Is the Court going to permit a reading from

this?

THE COURT: Those excerpts and, of course, if you want

in later testimony to develop the context or something to

affect it, you may do so.

Please identify the exhibit that you are referring

to before you do it.

MR. FLYNN: 4D, 500 4D.

Q It states, "Men are your slaves."

Is that correct, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

MR. LITT: Well, doesn't the next sentence get read,

too?

MR. FLYNN: We will read whatever you wish, Mr. Litt.

MR. LITT: Let me just take a look at it first.

Can I see that, please?

MR. FLYNN: Do you wish me to read it?

MR. LITT: The next sentence only.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Elemental spirits are your slaves."

Q And referring to exhibit 4F it states, "You can

2057

be merciless whenever your will is crossed and you have the

right to be merciless"; is that correct, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

Q Now were you here when Mary Sue Hubbard testified

that she was mentally raped by your having possession of the

documents under seal?

A Yes.

Q And I believe you --

MR. HARRIS: I think that misstates the testimony.

She was mentally raped because he sent them to

Mr. Flynn, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I am not quite sure. It sounds like that

is my recollection, but we have the actual words here. Let's

go on. That is just a point of reference.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, as you sit here on the witness

stand today and prior to your cross-examination, you are aware

that all of your PC files are in the possession of the

plaintiff in this action; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And when the SP Declare was issued on you, were

you fearful of that fact?

A Yes.

THE COURT: Well, when the PC goes into an auditing

session, are there any representations made whether or not

anything he says is in confidence or is he under an

understanding that everything he says is going to be

available for later use?

THE WITNESS: Your Honor, when I first became involved

2058

in Scientology, I asked on that specific point and there are

representations made within Scientology literature and by

Mr. Hubbard that the information is kept confidential.

It wasn't until some six or seven years later

that I learned that, in fact, it was available for use by

the Intelligence Bureau of the organization, and the fact

that it was used, could be used however they wanted.

THE COURT: Did you rely upon those representations

of confidence?

THE WITNESS: The initial ones?

THE COURT:Yes.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: All right, you may continue, counsel.

BY MR. FLYNN: Now, the policy of representation

is set forth in several publications, including the Auditors

Code; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q Now under what circumstances did exhibit 500 6S

"Estimate in Reader's Digest" come into your hands?

A This was provided to me to give to Mr. Garrison

by Vaughn Young sometime in the fall of 1981.

Q And did you read it at that time?

A Yes.

Q Did you provide it to Mr. Garrison?

A Yes.

Q And did that confirm your understanding that the

organization was, as you put it, acting as an intelligence

agency in collecting hundreds of files on people including me?

2059

A Yes.

Q And with respect to a list of people, including

Michael Flynn, Paulette Cooper, Reader's Digest, Rockefeller,

L., Margaret Singer, Nan McLean, Eugene Methvin, and John

Clark, was there an indication that 30 feet of information

had been gone through and 200 files to make up a set of index

files?

A Yes.

Q And did you check the accuracy at any time of

the information contained in exhibit 6S?

MR. HARRIS: "At any time" while he had it in his

possession or before he left the church or at any time in

Mr. Flynn's office? What is the reference, Your Honor?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Before you left the church, did

you attempt to try to check the accuracy of exhibit 6S?

A I don't believe that I did anything at that time.

I provided it to Mr. Garrison with -- I had understood that

it was accurate at that tine, that everything that was laid

out here was exactly -- not that the substance o£ the reports

were accurate because I had by that time begun to perceive

that, in fact, there were no enemies who sere out to get

Scientology, that that was a created mechanism by which to

keep the troups in line.

2060

But I assumed that the information given on the

amount of data collection and amount of volume of the files

which were examined in order to come up with this estimate

were accurate.

Q And after you left the organization, when you

were working for Mr. Garrison, did you make any efforts to

ascertain the accuracy of the contents of the exhibit 6S?

A I believe only in -- I questioned you as to the

accuracy of some of the allegations in here, the connections

to the Rockefellers and to John Clark.

Q And did exhibit 6S confirm for you that the

organization had been collecting files on people such as

myself?

A Yes. I already knew that. So it never really

acted as a confirmation so much.

The mass of it, I was not perhaps totally aware

of. But it was a -- it was just another fact which was added

to the already growing awareness of these activities.

I myself was in the Intelligence Bureau both on

the ship and in Daytona. So I was already drilled in

intelligence acitivities and on data collection, so forth.

Q What was your state of mind before you left the

organization, Mr. Armstrong, with regard to how the

intelligence agency of the church collected information on

people such as myself?

A Well, they used whatever source, either covert

or overt in the data collection.

Overt data collection would simply be going

2061

through old newspapers or public reports or all the -- in

your case, going through all the files for any trial which

you had been involved in; examining the backgrounds of your

clients, of your family. This would be involved with an overt

data collection.

Then there would be a covert data collection which

would be getting someone in close to you, putting a plant

in your office; putting a plant in the office of someone

connected to you.

MR. LITT: These are --

MR. HARRIS: Let him go. It is state of mind.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Go ahead.

MR. HARRIS: This is being offered for state of mind,

as I understand it?

THE COURT: Well, I don't recall at this point.

Q BY M. FLYNN: The question was specifically what

was your state of mind; is that correct, Mr. Armstrong, before

you left the organization with regard to how information is

collected by the church?

A Right. This is what I knew at the time on the

methods of data collection, the specifics of how that would

be done. As an intelligence personnel, this is how I would

go about collecting information on you and which I knew the

organization, if they were collecting information on you,

would go about doing it.

Q Did it range from outright burglary to looking

up in newspapers, collecting information?

MR. LITT: Objection.

2062

THE COURT: I don't know what "outright burglary" is.

I have heard of a righteous burglary.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: What was your understanding as to

the means the organization used, Mr. Armstrong?

MR. HARRIS: His state of mind as to the means; is that

the question, rather than understanding?

THE COURT: I guess it is state of mind, Understanding

is a state of mind; belief is a state of mind; knowledge is

a state of mind.

2063

THE WITNESS: Data collection which I have mentioned

and within covert activities such as burglary, theft,

plants, blackmail.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: And did you understand that

to be an ongoing practice of the organization throughout

the period of time that you were involved?

A I did not know of it probably until some

time in probably 1980. I became very aware of the extent

of the covert intelligence activities.

Q And was that a factor with regard to giving

or sending to me all of the documents that you sent to me;

namely, the organization's collection and use of

information against enemies?

A Yes.

Q And at that time you perceived yourself to

be an enemy; is that correct?

A Yes. I should say that I believed that they

perceived me to be an enemy.

Q And why did you send me exhibit 500-6T?

A This covers a time when Mr. Hubbard was on

probation, I believe in 1950 or 1951 in San Luis Obispo,

I believe, although I am not sure. I can't see there.

In any case, it showed that Hr. Hubbard had

been apparently convicted of a crime or a misdemeanor

or something and had been put on probation in 1950.

Q And with regard to exhibit 500-6U, why did

you send me those collection of pictures with a dispatch

from a Terry Milner?

2064

A This is a letter from the then DGNF US.

That is the head of the intelligence bureau in the United

States, and it was addressed via Mary Sue to Ken Urquhart

was the LRH personal communicator on board the ship at

that point. It is dated 25 September, 1973, and it

concerns the photos which are in this envelope here and

indicated that the -- it states that the photos -- it

says, "Actually most of it belonged to Nibs."

Nibs was L. Ron Hubbard, Jr., and I knew of

the - that Nibs or L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. was viewed as

an enemy by the organization, and there was a possibility

from this dispatch that these photos had been stolen from

Nibs. Hence I sent it to you.

Q And did you determine whether or not there

was a conflicting claim between the organization as to

whether Nibs had given the photos voluntarily or as to

whether they had been stolen and whether anybody had been

requested to sign a particular document with respect to

them?

MR. HARRIS: That is about three compound questions,

Your Honor.

MR. FLYNN: I will withdraw it, Your Honor.

Q What if anything, did you learn about the

dispute over these photographs, Mr. Armstrong?

A I don't know of a dispute over the photographs.

However, in connection with -- or a conversation with

Nibs, he said --

MR. LITT: Can we have a time frame here.

2065

THE WITNESS: Yes, this was probably a month ago,

something like that.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, this is supposed to be why

he sent these things. It was done well before a month ago.

THE COURT: Well, he's already testified. This

goes to something else, but I don't know if it is terribly

relevant.

MR. LITT: It is hearsay.

MR. FLYNN: I will withdraw it.

THE COURT: Let's take a 10-minute recess.

(Recess.)

2066

THE COURT: In the case on trial, let the record reflect

that counsel are present; the witness has retaken the stand.

State your name again for the record, sir. You

are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: Gerald Armstrong.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I think I am very close to

completing the direct examination.

Q Mr. Armstrong, with regard to 500 6V through 500

6Y, did you send those to me to assist in the defense of the

claims that the organization vas making against you?

A Yes.

Q And with regard to 500 6Z, why did you send my

office that?

A This file contained a number of blank pieces of

stationery, one from U.S. Naval Hospital and another, a letter,

apparently, on Explorer Club stationery and signed by a Robert

Lees. And it is sort of a letter of recommendation for

Mr. Hubbard.

My belief is that Mr. Hubbard in fact wrote it

and signed it for Mr. Lees.

2067

I sent you this stuff because I had come

across in the course of this biography research a number

of such documents which appear that Mr. Hubbard had written

on someone else's letterhead, letters for himself or had

filled in for someone else, and in one case a fitness

report and in another case a statement of the medals that

he had earned during the war, and that was just to me a

small evidence of the type of fraud is which Mr. Hubbard

engaged.

Q Now, is one of those documents that you

referred in your last answer a document involving a

Commander Thompson which is not under seal?

A Yes.

MR: LITT: Would you say that again? I missed that.

THE COURT: Which is not under seal.

MR. LITT: Is one of those documents in 6-V not

under seal? Is that the question?

MR. FLYNN: No.

Q Is one of the documents you referred to

that evidenced Mr. Hubbard's signing someone else's name

as evidence of the fraudulent activity of Mr. Hubbard

not under seal?

A Yes.

Q And where did you last see it?

A Inside the organization.

Q And what is that document?

A It was a -- either a fitness report or

something similar around the time of the end of the war,

2068

and there is a signature on it by a Commander Thompson,

and the signature, my recollection is, is done in a broad

blue pencil crayon or a blue marker of some sort, not a

felt marker but a crayon marker, and I had other materials

from that period in Mr. Hubbard's writing which were also

done with this same marker.

THE COURT: I think it is probably conclusionary.

You can say it is a similar marker.

THE WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honor.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now did this document contain

representations about Mr. Hubbard's Naval background which

was totally contrary to every other document you found in

his Naval records?

A Well, what comes to mind is the number of

medals which are listed on this particular document, and

it was a different number of medals. He was awarded four

medals during the war. He has claimed to Scientologists

two numbers, one being 28 medals and palms; one being 21

medals and palms, and this was a figure in between those

amounts, in between 4 and 21, and gay recollection is that

it also included a Purple Heart.

The Purple Heart later showed up in a

color photograph of the medals which Mr. Hubbard claimed

he had been awarded during the war.

Q And was it your belief that Mr. Hubbard had

written this document?

A Yes.

Q Now with regard to exhibit 7-A, Mr. Armstrong,

why did you send my office that document?

2069

A This document dated 4 March, 1967 which is a

dispatch from LRH entitled "Saint Hill and OT Activities,

Expenses," this document has to do with the original -- the

origins of the Sea organization, payment of Sea organization

personnel then called the Sea Project and Mr. Hubbard's paying

these people at this time.

Q As their being employees of Mr. Hubbard?

A Yes.

Q And with regard to exhibit 7B through 7H, did

you send me these materials to defend yourself, Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes.

Q And among those documents, was exhibit 7F written

by Mr. Hubbard to be signed by a Tom Esterbrook?

A Yes.

Q And with regard to 7I, is 7I data on L. Ron

Hubbard?

Did you send me 7I as more data on L. Ron Hubbard's

background, his claims about his background?

A Yes.

Q And, lastly, exhibit 7J; what did you send me

7J?

A This set of papers refers to Hubbard Explorational

Company, OTS and this contains Mr. Hubbard's handwriting in

places and his initials. And it is signed by him. And it

refers to transfer of monies from HEC, OTS, LRH, CFS.

Q And did you believe that necessary to prove as

part of your defense that L. Ron Hubbard had been receiving

monies from the Church of Scientology?

2070

A Yes.

Q Now, with respect to all the documents that have

not been brought up, but are presently found under seal which

have not been marked as exhibits in the 500 series, why did

you send me those documents?

A The complete mass of documents which is what --

whatever I was able to obtain from Hr. Garrison which he,

for the most part, had duplicate copies of for the biography

project, the mass of them together show a complete picture

or, at least, a more complete picture than the exhibits which

we took out of that mass of documents. All of them add to

the overall picture regarding Mr. Hubbard and regarding his

use of the organization, his control of the organization;

the misrepresentations of his academic credentials and military

career and so on.

The whole thing together gives a very complete

picture of those facts.

Q Now, when Terry Gamboa told you to get a lawyer

and you received the SP Declare, were you aware of the policy

of L. Ron Hubbard regarding the use of the law set forth in

the Level Zero Check Sheet?

A I was. I was aware of the way that Mr. Hubbard

had used the law and ordered the organization to use the law.

I was aware that the law was used in order to

attack individuals, in order for the purpose of harassment.

So if that is what you mean, I was aware of that

fact.

Q And was it your belief at the time that you

2071

retained me, Mr. Armstrong, that you were going to be attacked

through the law by Mr. Hubbard's organization?

A Yes.

Q And what, if anything, did you believe with regard

to the scope of the litigation that Mr. Hubbard and his

organization could subject you to?

A I didn't know the scope in legal terms, but I

knew they could bring incredible weight both legally and

extra-legally against me.

Q And based on that belief did you send me as many

documents as you felt you could obtain that you could use

to defend yourself?

A Yes.

2072

Q Now, in your SP Declare you were accused on

April 22, 1982 of:

"Being found to be promulgating

false information about the church, its founder

and members. He used his position to create

and transmit erroneous information under the

guise of documentation. Altered documents have

been found in this area."

Was that of particular significance to you?

A What that signified to me was that the

organization was carrying out what is called inside a

"Black Propaganda Campaign" in order to discredit me,

in order to discredit the statements which I made about

Mr. Hubbard, about the organization. That was the

significance that that had.

I saw that this document was being put

out within the Scientology network and connected organizations

internally, and that the purpose was to create an

atmosphere into which it then became acceptable for further

acts by the organization or by the intelligence operatives

or as it turned out by private investigators against me.

Q Now, at that time were you familiar with

the policy regarding Black Propanda written and copy-

righted by Mr. Hubbard set forth in what has been referred

to as the Green Books?

A Yes.

Q And again what are the "Green Books,"

Mr. Armstrong?

2073

A The Green Books are the public published

policy, mostly written by Mr. Hubbard, having to do with

Scientology organization policy. They are statements of

policy. They are policy letters which are supposed to

govern Scientology organizations.

MR. FLYNN: May that be marked as the next

exhibit in order, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Triple B.

MR. HARRIS: Which appears to contain a potpourri

of items. It is collectively, I suppose.

THE COURT: Yes, collectively.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, what did you understand

the basic policy as set forth in exhibit triple B with

regard to Black Propaganda to be, Mr. Armstrong?

A That Black Propaganda was false statements

from hidden sources designed to discredit and destroy

the reputation of the person who was being lied about.

Q And when you read the SP Declare with regard

to altered documents and making false statements about

Mr. Hubbard, did you believe that to be part of the policy

on Black Propaganda?

A Yes.

Q What if anything was your belief with regard

to the necessity of procuring documents from Mr. Garrison

to defend yourself against Black Propaganda?

A That it was necessary.

Q Now there was a statement on the Suppressive

Person Declare dated April 22, 1982 of about your espousing

2074

the views of Timothy Leary?

A Yes.

Q Is there any truth in that allegation on

the SP Declare, Mr. Armstrong?

A No.

Q And did you consider that to be Black

Propaganda?

A Yes.

Q And what was your state of mind with regard

to why that charge was made in the SP Declare?

A I saw a couple of possibilities, the first

that is that it came out of whole cloth, that it was part

of the Black PR campaign. It was to set up an atmosphere

inside the organization so that people inside the organization

did not believe me but felt that I had freaked out on LSD

or that I had gone off the deep end.

The other thing was I had already been told

by Laurel just a week or so prior to leaving that she

knew of operations in which LSD was put in people's

toothpaste so there was another threat I felt from that

quarter, and the other possibility was the planting of

drugs on me.

Q Now at the time you left did you know or had

you seen a declaration of an Ann Rosenbloom?

A Yes.

Q And did Miss Rosenbloom work in the Commodore

Messenger's org for Mr. Hubbard?

A Yes.

2075

Q And were you aware that drugs had been put

in one of her drinks by a Joseph Lisa?

A I had seen that, I believe. I do not recall

the specifics of it. I had heard that within the

organization.

Q Now, do the use of drugs have particular

significance to a Scientologist?

A Yes.

	2076
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	Q In what sense? A To a Scientologist who is not in the inner circle, at the top of the organization working directly with Mr. Hubbard, it is viewed that drugs are not to be used. In fact, aspirin is not to be used. And one can't be audited within a certain time of having even used aspirin. Even medical drugs are frowned upon. And street drugs of any description, certainty, are frowned upon. Q And, if any, bearing did that have in your mind with respect to the claim that you were associated with Timothy Leary? A This was an effort to discredit me by connecting me up to LSD and Timothy Leary. Q Now, in 1978-1979 when you were working with Mr. Hubbard at La Quinta and at Gilman Hot Springs did you have the opportunity to observe his behavior? A Yes. Q And what did you observe? A During the period in which we were shooting movies in La Quinta and out in the desert and at various locations, I was able to observe him for long periods of time on a daily basis several hours a day. And my observation was that his behavior was highly irrational. He yelled, in my opinion, without meaning. He raged at people. He swore a great deal. His language was atrocious. I was definitely in fear because of the way that he raged at the slightest little thing on the movie set.

2077

His messengers -- he was continually surrounded

by messengers. And they acted the same way, yelling at people

on the set, yelling at the various units for not performing

their functions correctly. It was highly irrational.

Q Was he abusive?

A Yes.

Q And did he assign people to the rehabilitation

project force for minor infractions?

A Yes.

Q Now, in the summer of 1983 did you become aware

that Mr. Garrison had reached a settlement with Mr. Hubbard's

representatives?

A Yes.

Q And at that time what, if any, formal offer did

you make to the plaintiff and the intervenor with regard to

returning documents that are under seal?

MR. LITT: Are we -- it is fine with me if he wants

to go into settlement matters in this case. But I assume

that is what is happening now?

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, they offered the letters of

Mr. Peterson with regard to making the demand for the return

of the documents.

MR. LITT: It is an element of the case, Your Honor.

MR. FLYNN: It is our belief that the first time that --

MR. LITT: That is fine. Okay,

Q BY MR. FLYNN: What, if any, formal offer did

you make for the return of the documents under seal,

Mr. Armstrong?

2078

A What I went over with my attorney Bruce Bunch

and my understanding that he relayed to Mr. Litt at that time

was that we would deliver to Mr. Hubbard or his agents any

of the materials which would not be needed for the defense

of this case or the cross-complaint.

We requested that copies of any of the originals

which we deemed were necessary for evidence would be provided

to us and that the originals could be delivered to Mr. Hubbard.

Q Why did you send my office original documents?

A I guess because that is what I had. But I --

my reasoning at the time was that original documents would

be necessary in order to assist in the authentication of

all of these materials.

Mr. Hubbard had been claiming since a long time --

and I knew of his letter from 1953 or 1977 to Mr. Garrison

which ultimately made its way to Mr. Garrison in which he

claimed that his records had been stolen in 1953 and that

the government had been putting forged or altered documents

into his dossier.

I had heard this a number of times just prior

to leaving.

A man by the name of Harvey Haber, who was an

organization person then in charge of selling Mr. Hubbard's

fiction work, "Man, The Endangered Species," which later was

renamed "Battle Field Earth," he at that time had or had

seen, but in any case, had in his hands at one time just

prior to that, somewhere around December, 1981 --

2079

MR. LITT: Is that what Mr. Haber told Mr. Armstrong?

THE WITNESS: That is correct.

MR. HARRIS: There will be an objection; hearsay

unless it is for again --

THE COURT: Well, it is his state of mind. Had to

do with the originals.

THE WITNESS: That Mr. Hubbard had stated that he

had heard that there was some questions regarding statements

he had made about his past, and he stated, and this was

relayed to me by Mr. Haber that he wanted everyone to

know that this dispatch had gone from Mr. Hubbard to

David Miscavige.

Anyway he wanted everyone to know that

everything Mr. Hubbard had said about himself and

everything that the PR's had said about him was, in fact,

true, and I had a great deal of concern that the organization

might come out and say that all these documents are

forgeries because if they were copies, I certainly was not

going to have their assistance in the authentication of

these documents. This is a claim which has been made

before and I was concerned about it.

So, I had originals and rather than copy

them all at expense which I couldn't afford, and because I

felt that we would run into an authentication problem or

perhaps that these were all FBI created documents, I

elected to send you originals.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: And, in fact, in your SP Declare

you were accused of alteration of documents; is that correct?

2080

A That is correct.

Q Now, has it been your belief and under-

standing, Mr. Armstrong, throughout this litigation that

the Church of Scientology has had copies of all

documents under seal or Mr. Hubbard's representatives?

A My belief is that they have copies of

virtually/all of it, copies in one form or another.

Q And what is the basis for that belief?

A Because of the nature of the documents

which are herein because of the place from which they had

come, because of the subject matter, because of the

organization's interest in these things, and because of

the -- those are areas in which documentation would have

been collected by B-1 in order to handle the questions

which continually come up in these areas.

Q Now in your deposition you were asked about

the source of originals from two areas in which you said

you didn't believe that there were copies left in those

two sources; you recall that testimony?

A Whether or not I had left materials in

archives?

Q Correct.

Q Now when you answered that question, was it

your belief at the time that there were copies in other

areas other than the two that you were questioned about?

A My belief is that for at least the vast

majority of the originals which are under seal there are

copies, either copies of the letters, copies of the documents

2081

under seal or within the organization, either at GOWW,

GOUS, my archives, Controller archives. Some of them were

went to Mr. Garrison. So, my belief is that the vast

majority of them, I have no way of confirming that, but

knowing the contents and knowing the location from which

they came, that is my belief.

MR. LITT: Just a moment. Is this being introduced

for his state of mind as to why he sent originals because

if it is introduced for fact, it is not fact and his

opinion without fact as to whether there are things in the

archives to establish that there are such things in the

archives is improper because there is no foundation for

that.

THE COURT: Well there is no way for him apparently

to go check the archives, and I will overrule your

objection. He can give his opinion on that subject. The

weight to be given to it is something else again.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, do you feel, Mr. Armstrong,

it is necessary to have possession of copies of the

documents that are under seal for purposes of prosecuting

your cross-complaint?

A Yes.

Q While you were collecting the documents,

did you have conversations with Laurel Sullivan regarding

inurement to Mr. Hubbard in connection with your services

as an employee of Mr. Hubbard's?

MR. LITT: Objection. This is going back directly

into MCCS, Your Honor.

2082

THE COURT: I don't know whether it is or it isn't.

MR. LITT: But we have to establish that before

he answers the question and goes into attorney-client

privileged areas. Apparently from the --

2083

MR. FLYNN: It has nothing to do with MCCS, Your Honor.

MR. LITT: May I finish, please, Mr. Flynn? And then

you can speak.

Thank you.

Your Honor, I think there should be an inquiry

whether or not anything about "inurement," was placed upon

consultation with attorneys concerning various tax matters.

I think the court will find that whatever

Miss Sullivan said was as a result of consultation with

attorneys and plans that were being developed in relationship

thereto.

I think that it is appropriate for there to be

that preliminary inquiry before this simple question is asked

under these circumstances.

MR. HARRIS: Also, Your Honor, I understood that

Mr. Flynn was going to put Miss Sullivan on the stand and

then he would recall him in respect to those items.

MR. FLYNN: This has to do with the biography project,

Your Honor, and his understanding with regard to during the

biography project he had to be an employee of Mr. Hubbard

because if he wasn't an employee of Mr. Hubbard, it would

have been inurement to Mr. Hubbard if he was an employee of

the church and a violation of the Internal Revenue laws.

MR. LITT: And presumably some lawyer who might be right,

might be wrong and some lawyer whose advice may have been

followed or may not have been followed, if that is --

THE COURT: We'll receive it to show his state of mind

on the subject.