Gerry Armstrong--Reporters Transcript of Proceedings 05-09-1984

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SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DEPARTMENT NO. 57 HON. PAUL G. BRECKENRIDGE, JR., JUDGE

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA,

Plaintiff,

vs.

GERALD ARMSTRONG,

Defendant.

MARY SUE HUBBARD,

Intervenor.

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No. C 420153

REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, May 9, 1984

APPEARANCES:

(See Appearances page.)

VOLUME 8

Pages 1178 - 1388

NANCY L. HARRIS, CSR #644
HERB CANNON, CSR #1923
Official Reporters

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff:

PETERSON & BRYNAN
BY: JOHN G. PETERSON
8530 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 407
Beverly Hills, California 90211
(213) 659-9965

-and-

ROBERT N. HARRIS
The Oviatt Building
617 South Olive Street
Suite 915
Los Angeles, California 90014
(213) 623-7511

For the Intervenor:

LITT & STORMER
BY: BARRETT S. LITT
Paramount Plaza
3550 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 1200
Los Angeles, California 90010
(213) 386-4303

-and-

BARRETT S. LITT
BY: MICHAEL S. MAGNUSON
The Oviatt Building
617 South Olive Street
Suite 1000
Los Angeles, California 90014
(213) 623-7511

For the Defendant:

CONTOS & BUNCH
BY: MICHAEL J. FLYNN

- and-

JULIA DRAGOJEVIC
5855 Topanga Canyon Boulevard
Suite 400
Woodland Hills, California 91367
(213) 716-9400

VOLUME 8

I N D E X

Day	Date	Session	Page

Wednesday	May 9, 1984	A.M.	1178
		P.M.	1285

PLAINTIFF RESTS			Page 1358
DEFENSE MOTION FOR NONSUIT			Page 1358
PLAINTIFF'S ARGUMENT ON MOTION FOR NONSUIT			Page 1358

E X H I B I T S

PLAINTIFF'S	IDENTIFIED	RECEIVED

15 - (Previously identified)		1187
16 - (Previously identified)		1187
17 - (Previously identified)		1187
18 - (Previously identified)		1185
19 - (Previously identified)		1185
20 - (Previously identified)		1185
21 - (Previously identified)		1185
22 - (Previously identified)	1254	1356
DEFENSE:
G - (Previously identified)		1187
I - (Previously identified)		1187

1178

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, MAY 9, 1984; 9:45 A.M.

-o0o-

THE COURT: All right. In the case on trial let the

record reflect that counsel are present.

You may proceed.

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.

Your Honor, before we proceed to read

Mr. Garrison's deposition testimony let me see if we can

deal with some other housekeeping matters. One, there are

a few items of evidence that we would like to move in.

We would like to move in exhibit 1. Before

we do so, if the court feels it is necessary on the question

of unavailability I have and am obtaining a certified copy

of, which should be here by the noon break, the decision in

the case in re Estate of L. Ron Hubbard, a missing

person which is a decision of the Superior Court of the

State of California for the County of Riverside which states

in relevant part:

"That the lack of information as to

Mr. Hubbard's present address is a matter of

choice by Mr. Hubbard. Mr. Hubbard's constitutional

right of privacy gives him a right to keep his

residence a secret from the public, and therefore

he is not a missing person."

1179

And we offer that as further evidence that

Mr. Hubbard is in seclusion. It is a judicial finding by

the court of this state. We don't really think it is necessary.

Mrs. Hubbard has testified to it, but we

are prepared to add that on the unavailability issue. And

we would ask that the court take judicial notice of that

decision.

If the court wishes, we'll provide certified

copies, although I believe counsel for the defendant is

fully aware of the decision.

MR. FLYNN: I would like to be heard on that, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: Are you through?

MR LITT: On that, I am through, Your Honor. And then

on -- we would move in exhibit 1. We have other exhibits,

but I assume Mr. Flynn wants to be heard on exhibit 1.

THE COURT: Mr. Flynn.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, with regard to the decision

in the probate case, it is over a year old, first.

Secondly, it is simply a decision that in

the context of the California Missing Persons Statute where

a person is missing for more than 90 days, the court found

because of a declaration submitted by L. Ron Hubbard under

the pain of penalty of perjury, which has not been done in

this case, that Mr. Hubbard was not missing. That was the

entire scope of the ruling. It had nothing to do with

availability for purposes of service of process or service

of a witness subpoena.

1180

Secondly, the Federal District Court in Tampa

in a copy of a ruling that I have provided to the court

specifically found that L. Ron Hubbard is concealing himself.

The court stated at page 5 -- and this opinion

was subsequently appealed on two occasions to the Fifth

Circuit Court of Appeal which is now the Eleventh Circuit

Court of Appeal. And the decision of the Federal Judge

was confirmed.

MR. LITT: That is simply an incorrect misstatement.

There was an interlocutory appeal. The Eleventh

Circuit Court did not hear the interlocutory appeal. There

was no affirmation.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard

submitted approximately a foot of materials to the Eleventh

Circuit Court of Appeal. The court rejected the appeal.

The Federal District Court in Florida ruled as follows:

"The Court of Appeals opinion confirms

such projects as 'red box' an organized effort

on the part of persons within the church to hide

the whereabouts of key personnel and key documents.

Exhibit 3 to Lisa's deposition is 'Operation

Bulldozer Leak', the stated purpose of which is

to spread the rumor that L. Ron Hubbard has

no control of the church and no legal liability

for it. To the extent that the church is shown to

be Hubbard's agents, these are efforts of

concealment attributable to him."

And the court rules further on that page,

	1181
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	" ... these comprise corroborative and supportive evidence of the Hubbards' efforts and intent to conceal themselves. Accordingly, the file herein presents a showing sufficient to indicate concealment under Florida law."

1182

Now, this court is confronted with a situation

where one federal court has ruled that L. Ron Hubbard is

hiding from service of process. The court has received for

identification this exhibit which initially when it was

provided to the court was provided with an attached affidavit

of a Mr. Brunell that was secured by an attorney named

Lawrence Heller, and the exhibit 1 is dated February 3, 1982,

and Mr. Brunell provided the special ink in which the letter

is written and states in his affidavit, which we intend to

introduce through Mr. Heller who we have subpoenaed in our part

of the case, that the special ink was prepared and transmitted

to Mr. Hubbard on February 2nd, and the letter is dated

February 3rd.

I submit that that supports an inference on

the part of Mr. Hubbard's attorneys, of which Mr. Heller

is one, of immediate access to Mr. Hubbard. We have

subpoenaed, as I indicated, Mr. Heller to appear before this

court.

Lastly, we succeeded in subpoenaing last night

Dr. Eugene Denk. Dr. Denk is Mr. Hubbard's physician, and

we have testimony from other individuals that he has been his

physician from at least 1979.

We believe that Dr. Denk has seen Mr. Hubbard

in California within the last five to six months, and on one

occasion took an electrocardiogram machine out of his

office and took it to Mr. Hubbard's location. We have

received information as to where Mr. Hubbard's location may

be.

1183

We have received information that there are

three separate homes that have been set up as residences

under an assumed name, and that Mr. Hubbard --

MR. LITT: Your Honor, can we not have these -- we

have spent this whole case hearing about Mr. Flynn's

incriminations. Let's get to facts.

What are we supposed to do with information

he's received? I have heard so many statements from Mr. Flynn

of information that he has that has not turned out to be

any such information, has not turned out to be evidence. I

don't think it is right.

THE COURT: I think if we are going to get involved

in a dispute, it is going to have to be presented by way

of evidence and not by way of assertion.

I have already made some indication in my

rulings on the in limine matter. I don't know that there's

anything that's occurred since then that would cause me

to change my mind, but let me look at this letter. It

will be helpful if you could read this.

MR. LITT: There is an attached typed --

THE COURT: Interpretation.

Well, the letter purports to have been

written February 3rd, 1983. Under 1250 of the Evidence Code

this would be evidence of Mr. Hubbard's state of mind at

that time, and as far as I am concerned, it is evidence of

his state of mind on February 3rd that he'd like to have

the belongings returned to the church or the legal representative

of it. As to what he may have done in years before, it is

1184

not admissible under 1250 subsection (b).

Under 1251, evidence of a previous existing

mental state, there has to be unavailability and it has to

go to his state of mind and not a corporeal act or that he

acted in accordance with that state of mind, and further

under 1252 the evidence is admissible under the article that

the statement was made under circumstances such to indicate

its lack of trustworthiness.

1185

THE COURT: I would not receive this even if he were

unavailable to prove the truth of what is asserted there.

I consider it to be hearsay, as I have indicated before.

And I think that there is nothing to indicate anything that

relates to its trustworthiness. And there is no opportunity

to cross-examine.

So I would not receive it for that purpose,

but I'll receive it under 1250 of the Evidence Code which

doesn't require unavailability insofar as the third paragraph

is concerned in which he requests that it be returned.

It is received for that limited purpose.

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.

The next item -- I just want to go through at

this point and clean up moving whatever into evidence. And

I am just going through as they are marked.

I think the next item is actually a defendant's

exhibit which we are all in agreement on which is the Omar

Garrison PUBS DK agreement which was marked by the defendant

as exhibit G. He would move that in.

THE COURT: Why don't we stick with plaintiff's

exhibits first? Are they all in?

MR. LITT: No, Your Honor.

The next on the plaintiff's exhibits, that we

would move in are exhibits 17 through 21 which Mr. Peterson

testified to yesterday.

THE COURT: Is there any objection to those letters

and bills?

MR. FLYNN: No objection to the letters, Your Honor.

1186

I object to the bills for the reasons stated yesterday.

THE COURT: I'll overrule the objection. They'll be

received with the same comments the court made yesterday

relative to the objections.

MR. LITT: That takes care of all of the plaintiff's

exhibits that we are moving into evidence at this time.

Exhibits 15 and 16, we do not want to move

into evidence at this time, Your Honor, because they are

lists of the sealed documents. And unless they are going

to be received as such under seal, we are just reluctant

to move them into evidence.

The court knows our feelings about doing

anything that makes these matters a public record.

THE COURT: Are those the ones that indicate which is

private and confidential? If it wasn't developed, how am I

going to receive it?

MR. LITT: The court, at least, for the present, until

the case begins and we see what has and hasn't come out in

the way of documents, the court can agree to receive that

at this time under seal.

THE COURT: This is just an inventory with comments

personal and private; isn't it?

MR. LITT: That is all it is, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Or a statement that is to be filed with

the court anyway as a list of exhibits?

MR. LITT: Yes.

THE COURT: I see no reason to put that under seal.

MR. HARRIS: So long as it is not considered any sort

1187

of waiver in respect to the actual documents which underlie

the index, Your Honor; no problem. We'll move it in.

THE COURT: I have no feeling that it would constitute

any kind of waiver. Your position is very clear. I understand

your position.

MR. HARRIS: We'll move them into evidence.

THE COURT: 15 and 16 are received.

MR. LITT: Exhibit G, Your Honor.

MR. FLYNN: I have no objection, Your Honor, as long

as the two attachments are also marked which are exhibit I.

THE COURT: They may be attached by stipulation.

I don't think there is any evidence.

MR. HARRIS: There was one which there was testimony

about which was --

MR. LITT: I have the original agreement here, Your

Honor, if I can find it. And we can --

Mr. Flynn, what are you referring to as the

attachment?

MR. FLYNN: The letter of L. Ron Hubbard with the

initials OVG in the lower right-hand corner dated March 16,

1977.

MR. LITT: Oh, yes. It is a part of it. That is

fine.

MR. HARRIS: We have no objection.

THE COURT: We have the G and I.

MR. FLYNN: I have no objection to it being merged

into one exhibit.

THE COURT: All right. Then I'll receive G and I with

1188

the understanding that I was included within exhibit G.

Are those the only exhibits you want to offer

of the defense?

MR. LITT: At this time, yes, Your Honor.

Your Honor, may I make one other inquiry

before we begin, which is that the process of absorbing the

defendant's marked exhibits has still been a difficult process

for us because each day at the end of the day the defendant

marked more exhibits and including the last day after we had

had the last access to the documents. I wonder if the

court would permit Mr. Long, who is here, who has been

acting -- he is a church staff member from the legal bureau

of the church and has been acting as a factual research

assistant. I wonder if the court would permit that he sit

in the jury box with the defendant's exhibits just so he

can review them and make some notes on them for our purposes?

THE COURT: Which defense exhibits?

MR. LITT: The sealed exhibits.

Our problem is that some of them, we are not

even sure still what the notations even refer to or what

the contents of some of them are.

THE COURT: You mean while we are conduting the trial?

MR. LITT: I know there is some concern about the

security of the documents. So I am just trying to think

of any means that would allow him, since they are here now,

to be able to review them while the trial is proceeding in

some form.

If the jury box isn't a good suggestion, I am

1189

open to whatever makes the most sense.

THE COURT: Maybe Nick can sit with him.

Do you want to sit with him and watch what he

is doing?

THE COURT ATTENDANT: I suppose so.

THE COURT: Maybe it would be better over here where

there are no other people around.

Why don't you tell him which ones you want

and the clerk will --

MR. LITT: Mr. Long will bring the list to the bailiff.

THE COURT: Are we going to proceed with the reading

of Mr. Garrison's depo?

MR. LITT: Yes, we are. Your Honor.

I have the original of the transcript with

me.

The set that the court has received is the

set that has the blue markings and the red markings. Because

that is all I had.

THE COURT: Mr. Litt, you can read Mr. Litt's questions

and Mr. Harris can read Ms. Dragojevic's questions and I can

rule on the objections as we deal with them.

1190

THE COURT: What about the -- there are a couple of

exhibits here. Are we going to use those exhibits in this

proceeding?

MR. LITT: Well, one of the exhibits is the agreement.

THE COURT: Okay. That is G.

MR. LITT: We will refer to it by G. The exhibit

that is marked exhibit 1 in this deposition transcript would

be exhibit G in this case.

There is a second exhibit which is a statement

of the agreement, settlement agreement between Mr. Garrison

and New Era Publications which has not yet been marked as

an exhibit and that when we come to it we will mark as

plaintiff's next in order.

THE COURT: Very well.

" OMAR GARRISON,

having been called as a witness on behalf of the

Intervenor, was duly sworn, examined, and

testified as follows:"

Beginning with page 5.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I think we can skip the

medical questions. We can go to page 6, line 18.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. FLYNN: I take it then I am going to follow after.

Wherever Mr. Litt stops, I am going to join in?

THE COURT: Where Mrs. Dragojevic asks the question.

MR. FLYNN: And Mr. Harris is going to be kind enough

to ask me the questions?

MR. HARRIS: I didn't know I was volunteering for that,

1191

but okay.

THE COURT: Well, if you start having problems, let

us know.

MR. HARRIS: Okay.

MR. LITT: (Reading:)

"Q Let me begin by asking: Mr.Garrison,

what is your occupation?

"A I'm a professional author.

"Q And where do you reside?

"A I reside at 1099 West Cedar Knolls

South, Cedar City, Utah.

"Q Can you describe just very briefly

the books that you have published, specifically

books that relate to the subject of Scientology.

You don't have to go through everything.

"A No. I have 14 books in print; it

would be very rather difficult.

"With respect to Scientology, the first

book I did was one called The Hidden Story of

Scientology. Do you want to know basically

what it's about?

"Q Just the title is all right.

"A The next one which dealt with

Scientology, at least peripherally, was one

called The Secret World of Interpol; and there

was a third one, the last one, which is entitled

Playing Dirty and has a subtitle The Secret War

Against Beliefs.

1192

"Q Some time in the year 1980, did you

enter into a contract to write a biography on the

subject of L. Ron Hubbard?

"A I did.

"Q Showing you Exhibit" -- what is now

Exhibit G -- "can you examine that document

and tell me if that is a copy of the contract

which you entered into to write that biography?

"A As each page with the exception of one

page, namely page 8, bears my initials, I assume

that it's the same document.

"Q With whom did you enter into that

agreement?

"A I'm not quite sure with whom I was

entering the agreement at all. The name on the

contract was an entity known as, I believe,

Publications DK.

"Q 'DK' referring to Denmark?

"A Denmark.

"Q And this biography, was there an

arrangement with respect to it that would

involve cooperation by the Church of Scientology

and by L. Ron and Mary Sue Hubbard with respect

to the biography?

"A Yes, indeed, very much so. I was to

be provided with all -- I believe the contract

itself spells it out -- all necessary materials

to do a full and complete biography.

1193

"Q Was it an authorized biography?

"A I'm not competent legally to say

what an authorized biography is. If you mean was

it my understanding that L. Ron Hubbard approved

it, yes, indeed. I have a memo to that effect

signed -- initialed by Mr. Hubbard.

"Q Now, in drafting the biography, were

you to be provided materials by the Church of

Scientology of California to assist you and provide

you background information in writing the

biography?

"A No. At no time was it specified

where the material would come from except from

Mr. Gerry Armstrong who was appointed as my

research assistant. Now this occurred when I

first met Mr. Armstrong in England in East

Grinstead, Sussex. He was introduced to me as

the archivist who had charge of biographical

materials and would have more, I believe;

and it was my understanding that a general memo

had been circulated to other parts of the Church

of Scientology saying that this biography was

being done, and if they had any pertinent material,

they were to send it to Mr. Armstrong.

"So as to the source of the material,

I honestly cannot say where it came from or who had

it. It was first introduced to me by Mr. Armstrong.

"Q When did you first meet Mr. Armstrong?

1194

"A I can't give you the exact date off

the top of my head, but it is fairly well

documented because I was in East Grinstead at

the time, and it was a few months prior to signing

of the contract.

"Q Was it essentially in the context

of discussions about how the biography would

proceed; is that right?

"A No. At that time --

1195

"Q Negotiations --

"A At that time, remember, I had not

signed -- at that time I had not really agreed

until knowing that they would conform to certain

conditions I had. At that point I had not either

signed under the contract or agreed to do it.

I was very hesitant at that point.

"Q And the contract itself was signed,

I believe, October 30, 1980; is that right?

"A Yes, approximately.

"Q Is that your recollection?

"A Yes; in Los Angeles.

"Q At that time was Mr. Armstrong

working as an archivist or the archivist?

"A Yes. Well, it is my understanding

he was.

"Q That was the information you received?

"A That was the information I had, yes.

"Q Both from Mr. Armstrong and other

people?

"A Other people, responsible people in

the church.

"Q Do you know where Mr. Armstrong had

his office, his archives office?

"A Those that I saw --- and, incidentally,

I don't have access to -- but I saw them. They

were in the Cedars of Lebanon building known as the

Cedars Complex.

1196

"Q That's at the Church of Scientology

facilities in Hollywood?

"A Well, it's known as the Cedars Complex.

It's their principal building here, I think.

"Q Now, once you signed the contract

did Mr. Armstrong begin to provide you with

materials to be used for it?

"A Yes. He provided me copies.

And it involved rather extensive copying of original

documents. And the documents, as I understood

it, were arriving as we went along from other places

as well in addition to those he already had. So

I have no personal knowledge of what the setup

is with regard to what he had and what he

received later. But he began to provide me

with material from that point, from the point

of signing up the contract.

"Q Now, in the past you indicated that

you had written other subjects that generally

were in the area of Scientology. Had you been

provided materials in preparing those?

"A Copious materials, enormous amounts

of material.

"Q And had it been your general practice

to keep those materials confidential between you

and the people who had provided them to you

essentially?

"A Yes.

1197

"Q And was it your understanding that

the same practice would apply to the materials

provided for this --

"A Oh, yes.

"Q Let me follow out, if I can for a

moment, how this contract would work. Was there

a mechanism by which after you drafted a manuscript

that it would be provided to certain people for

their review?

"A I think you'll find the document

itself is the best answer to that. I think it

really mentions names of people. I haven't looked

at the document recently because it's null and

void so far as I am concerned. And as you know now,

it is legally as well; so I haven't had occasion

to refresh my memory as to who those persons were,

but I believe they are named in the document.

"Q Well, specifically, and correct me if

I am wrong --

"A David Gayman was one. And he, of

course, is now outside the pale; and I believe

Mr. Hubbard was another. But I don't recall the

third person. There were three, were there not?

In any event, it is in the document.

"Q And after this was subjected to review

could proposed changes be suggested to you?

"A Well, again, my memory is that they

could. But as you have the document before you,

1198

I think you could refer to it and it could tell

you."

MR. LITT: I wasn't going to read the next.

THE COURT: I thnk Mr. Flynn wants it all.

MR. LITT: I'll read my questions because there was

no objection by me to them.

"Q And was it your understanding that

in the event for whatever reason that an agree-

ment could not be reached as to the content of

the document, there was a method by which the

manuscript would not be published and you would

be reimbursed? Was that also part of the

contract?

"A Again, the contract is there before

you. The contract in my opinion was obtained

fraudulently and so for that reason I've not

again reviewed it and refreshed my memory on it."

MR. LITT: I move to strike that answer as non-

responsive, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. It will be stricken.

MR. LITT: (Reading):

"Q All I'm asking you here is not the

financial arrangements of the contract or whatever,

but was it your understanding when you entered

into the contract that there was a mechanism

by which --

"A Yes.

"Q If an agreement at the present

1199

time could not be reached, there could be an

arrangement by which you could be reimbursed --

"A Yes.

"Q -- and the manuscript not actually

be published?

"A Yes.

"Q Thank you. Give me a description,

and here I don't want a detailed description,

but a general description of the types of materials

that Mr. Armstrong as the archivist made available

to you in the course of your work on the

biography.

"A To a biographer, anything whatsoever

pertaining to the person about whom you are

writing is grist for the mill. I want to sort

of preface it with that.

"The material that Mr. Armstrong provided

me ran the whole gamut from ordinary -- let's say,

the baby book, the beginning of Mr. Hubbard's

career, his letters; there were legal documents;

there were -- everything, all the material that

would go into a classic biography.

"Q Were they extensive?

"A Extremely so, yes.

"Q Can you give me any kind of estimate

of the volume of them?

"A I'm still trying to determine that

because I had such enormous reserves of documents

1200

left from the last book that related to

Mr. Hubbard as well that for the last three years

I've been reviewing not only the material that

Mr. Armstrong gave me, but all that went before.

So it's intermingled. And I can give you a rough

estimate, for what it's worth, as to worth -- you

want the number of pages or -- "

1201

"Q However you find it easiest. I

realize we can't be precise but --

"A Well, there were in terms of binders --

because much of this material was collected into

individual binders. There were, I believe,

some 300-and-some-odd which -- the Scientologists

have a way of computing documents, as dating from

the time of those they took in Washington, as

stacking them up on the side. If this is true,

I might have a five-foot stack of documents.

"Q Were you provided materials by

anyone other than Mr. Armstrong?

"A Oh, yes. Different people. I couldn't

tell you everybody, Sullivan; people even wrote

me from Denmark.

"Q But the primary person was Mr. Armstrong?

"A Yes. He was my research assistant

so it was his job.

"Q Do you know what his actual title

was? Was it 'Archivist' to your knowledge?

"A This was my information; and research assistant.

"Q And was it your understanding that

that was a church title of some kind?

"A I have no idea; their titles are

very mysterious.

"Q Would you at times request from

Mr. Armstrong certain types of materials?

1202

"A Yes. Not frequently because he was

always ahead of me. In other words, the documents

that he had provided me I was still reviewing

and going through and making notes from and cross-

referencing. Always there was a backlog of

material I hadn't got to, and this was the case

right up to the end. As you know, there were

several documents I hadn't even seen or gone

through because I didn't get to them.

"But on occasion when a question would arise,

I would make a note of it and I thought he might

have the answer to, and then he would say, yes,

it may be in this or that document, and he'd

go into the files and look for it.

"Q Were many of the materials from what

you could determine personal records of Mr. or

Mrs. Hubbard?

"A Very personal records.

"Q And would it be fair to say that upon

completion of the project and in the event there

was a request for the return of them, that it

would have been both your practice and your

understanding that they would be returned with

the possible exception of materials that were

directly used by you?

"A I think so. I have a reluctance to

have other people's personal matters in my files

and -- but I would have retained through publication

1203

and beyond, at least beyond the statutory limits,

any material related to what I had published

simply out of a -- simply as a protection against

future suits.

"Q So, in other words, the materials that

were given to you were materials provided to you

for your use as opposed for your personal ownership;

would that be a fair statement?

"A That's an assumption. Curiously when

we got to look at the contract -- it never

occurred to me because this has never been a

problem before. But when my attorney -- when

you first brought up, I believe, the question

of return of all the documents and then they

issued this -- this subpoena duces tecum to

me over there, saying bring everything you ever

owned about scientology, we got to thinking

about it, and my attorney looked at the contract,

and he said nowhere in there does it require me to

return anything.

"Q I understand that the contract

itself is silent on that point.

"A Yes. But if you mean is it my

practice, would I have done it, yes.

"Q That had been the practice on your

other --

"A Not always. They didn't -- as

time -- it was the practice with the first book,

1204

and after that I think that the knowledge

finally grew on them that I was a person who

could be trusted, and they never requested

the return of any other material. I have very

sensitive materials relating to the other books,

some of it very sensitive.

"Q Did you ever provide access to any

of these materials to anyone who was not part

of the church?

"A I did not, that is, not knowingly,

not with my consent.

"Q What was your understanding, if

you had, ones as to who owned the materials,

copies of which were provided to you?

"A The question never arose.

"Q Let we ask it this way: I take it

you were able to determine that there was a

variety of materials, some of which could be

categorized as personal papers of Mr. Hubbard

and Mrs. Hubbard, some of which/were from the church

files; is that right?

"A There was very little comparatively.

If you take the entire body of the material,

I'd say that almost nothing was church -- this

is the material that I had and was provided me

where, if you wanted to characterize them, you

would say they are the private papers of L. Ron Hubbard.

"Q To you knowledge, had these papers

1205

or were these papers made available to anyone

from outside the church other than you?

"A Would you repeat that, I didn't

quite follow.

"Q To your knowledge, had these papers

ever been made available to anyone from outside

of the church other than yourself?

"A Not in the sense of my having seen

them pass from one hand to another. It's just

a general loose understanding, an assumption

that they would have been used, certain ones,

in another, in another context. But as for my

personal knowledge of it, no, I can't say that

I ever knew.

"Q Explain to me how Mr. Armstrong

would work with you as your research assistant

on the biography. Explain the working relationship

between the two of you.

"A Generally speaking, Mr. Armstrong

was an extremely efficient researcher in that he --

we had a vast body of material that was just

miscellaneous that he had apparently brought in

or sent in or acquired or wherever it came from.

And he was able to take this and, it seemed to

me, in a very short time and intelligently sorted

out and put it into binders in such a way that it

would save me hours and hours and hours of work

trying to relate one thing to another.

1206

"So that if in one binder there was

within a certain time period there were certain

developments, and over here in another time

period there were developments way down the

road that related to these, I didn't have to

wait until I got down there, but there would be

a cross reference or the documents itself in there.

So in that sense I was extremely grateful,

and I still am extremely grateful for the work

he did.

"So to answer it in a general way, he was

a very able researcher, and he knew -- he had

the ability, which is important, to keep everything

in his head as well. So that if I asked -- there

were thousands of details, minute details;

and if I said, 'Well, somewhere I recall -- I

didn't make a note of it at the time, but I

recall that there was a reference to an incident

that occurred in 1932 in Puerto Rico,' he would

say, 'Yes, it's in this or that binder.' And

I'd know right where -- so from that point of

view it was extraordinary really.

1207

"Q So essentially it sounds like

from what you are saying that he played two

interrelated roles. One is he gathered

materials and provided to you what he thought

would be relevant to the biography and,

secondly, he was a resource on whom you could

draw if you had a question about those

materials?

"A Right.

"Q Now, I have a list. And I just

want to go over it real briefly. This is a

list of, at least, some of the types of

documents that Mr. Armstrong has previously

indicated were among the materials provided to

you.

"There were letters between

Mr. Hubbard and his various wives?

"A Yes.

"Q Documents from Mr. Hubbard's

Naval career?

"A Yes.

"Q Correspondence with various

agents and publishers between Mr. Hubbard and

others?

"A Yes.

"Q Correspondence or other files

relating to friends of Mr. Hubbard's or

acquaintances?

1208

"A Relating -- I don't --

"Q In other words, letters or

whatever between personal acquaintances --

"A Yes.

"Q -- and Mr. Hubbard?

"A Yes, 'writer friends,' I think

was the title.

"Q Files of various written

materials by Mr. Hubbard, original written

materials, manuscripts?

"A Well, they weren't originals in

the sense -- with one or two exceptions, they

were copies of originals, yes.

"Q Awards that Mr. Hubbard had

received in the course of his life?

"A Possibly, yes, I believe there

were one or two.

"Q Correspondence between

Mr. Hubbard and other family members aside from

his wives?

"A Yes.

"Q Childhood information such as Boy

Scouts, a variety of sort of miscellaneous --

'memorabilia' would be the best word?

"A Yes, memorabilia concerning his

Boy Scout period, yes.

"Q Diaries and journals?

"A Yes.

1209

"Q Can you think of any other

general categories that I haven't included?

"A Yes -- well, no. Mostly -- you

see, you've given a more-or-less broad -- some

of those categories are broadly descriptive. I

think you can subsume mose of the materials

under those you've given.

"Q Now, at some point you became

aware that Mr. Armstrong had left the church

and was no longer the church archivist; is that

correct?

"A Yes.

"Q Would that be in -- sometime

around Christmas of 1981 that you --

"A I believe so.

"Q -- learned this?

"A In that general time period, yes.

It was after Christmas, just following

Christmas, I think.

"Q Mr. Armstrong called you and

advised you that he had left the church?

"A Yes.

"Q Now, for the period, say, the two

or three months immediately prior to that -- I

am referring now to that being the time

Mr. Armstrong left the church --

"A Yes.

"Q -- had you received any large

1210

body of materials for your biography from

Mr. Armstrong?

"A My recollection is that I did.

I'm not quite certain as to how much, but it

seems to me, if I recall correctly, at that

period -- well, again, this came to me all the

way along the line and more or less in bunches.

I'd receive a number of binders at the same

time. But generally speaking, I believe that

there was some -- I would say a little more

toward the end than there had been in the

immediate preceding months.

"Q I know it's a while ago so I

recognize it's hard. But when you say 'a

little more,' would it be like --

"A Well, I honestly don't remember.

I really don't. These things -- I remember I

thought we were at the end of everything,

staring the first two months afterward. You

must realize that I had no idea that all this

material existed and I don't think anyone else

did. I don't think Mr. Armstrong did. I think

it just proliferated.

"Q Let me ask you the question this

way: In the months of November of December,

were you given several thousand additional

pages?

"A No. I don't believe so. I don't

1211

recall that many.

"Q So to the best of your

recollection it may be a few hundred, something

like that?

"A I would characterize it by number

because I honestly don't remember. And, you

see, this had been an ongoing project over

three years and it's -- I honestly don't

remember any given time how much I received at

one time.

"Q Now, as I understand it

Mr. Armstrong agreed to continue to help you

out for a while in your biography?

"A Yes. He did at my request.

"Q And was the assistance that he

gave you in the form of continuing to be a

resource to help to answer questions or --

"A It was chiefly --

"Q Or help locate things --

"A That was it. It was to help

locate things and materials. That was it, to

help me locate things. Because as I said, he

had a very astonishing recall and memory of

where things were and it saved me hours and

hours because I could say 'Well, where is

this?' And also he was able to readjust some

of this material so it would bring it in

alignment and I wouldn't overlook something

1212

which perhaps was down the way and I wouldn't

even know about it so I couldn't ask him about

it because I didn't have knowledge of it. So

the re-arrangement as well.

"Q And after he had left the church

did he do any writing or provide any new

biographical material other than what he had

already given you?

"A Not to my knowledge. There

were -- there were things that were not sorted

out, as you know and so, what was there, what

he had knowledge of, it is unknown to me.

"Q So essentially, as I understand

it, the form of his assistance would be that he

was available for you at any time to call him

and ask him questions about the materials?

"A Well, he continued to work very

closely with me on it.

"Q When Mr. Armstrong left the

church he did not have a job; is that right?

"A I don't know that.

"Q Well, let me ask it this way:

You helped him to get a job --

"A Yes.

"Q -- at some point --

"A Yes.

"Q Do you remember when that was,

approximately?

1213

"A Well, you could tell when his

employment began with Feldsott & Lee, the law

firm for whom he has been employed in the last

year and a half or whatever it is.

"Q To the best of your recollection,

that was around the spring of 1982?

"A Gee, I don't recall precisely,

but somewhere in that time period, yes.

"Q Now, as I understand it, after

Mr. Armstrong began working at the law firm --

whose name you mentioned, but nonetheless

evades me at the moment -- his relationship to

working on the biography diminished?

"A Oh, considerably, yes, almost

entirely. I mean -- well, he was very good

about this because he was never -- he was never

reimbursed for any of his services after he

left the church. But he was very good about it

because I was constantly ringing him up and

right up to the time that I left off writing

the book and asked him where certain things

were.

"Q So let me see if I understand it

correctly. Basically, after he went to work

for the law firm, you might call him on

occasion --

"A Yes.

"Q -- to ask him one question --

1214

"A That's right.

"Q -- or another?

"A Because we didn't see each other

that often. He was here and I was in Utah.

"Q Now, as some point did

Mr. Armstrong come to you and say that he would

like to obtain from you some of the materials

from the -- 'biography project' I'll call it

that -- that you had?

"A Yes. Perhaps we ought to, at

least I would like to preface that by saying

that during the period we are discussing -- and

this has been, I think, laid out in an

affidavit by Mr. Armstrong. So I won't repeat

all of it -- but in a general way he was --

considered his life in danger."

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I move to strike that as

nonresponsive. I moved it in the transcript.

THE COURT: Well, let's see. All right. I'll strike

the answer as nonresponsive.

"Q My only question here is at some

point did Mr. Armstrong come to you and ask you

if he could get some materials from you that

you had from the biography project?

"A In a general way, yes. I'm

not -- in other words, I don't at the moment

recall a specific instance, but obviously, he

did, yes.

1215

"Q Did that occur on more than one

occasion, or on one occasion as best you

recall? Was there a particular time? Without

necessarily being able to identify the date,

was there a particular request?

"A That was what I was trying to

explain, that it wasn't a series of specific

requests. There was a general understanding

that grew of what was happening to him which

laid the foundation for his having access to

the documents, which, in fact, I had received

from him anyway. It wasn't betraying any

confidentiality because I got the documents

from him. He knew everything that was in them.

"Q I understand. But he came to you

at some point and asked you if he could make

copies of some documents; is that right --

"A Yes.

"Q -- as opposed to his having

access?

"A Yes.

"Q And he told you that he needed

these documents for his legal case --

"A For his -- yes, for his defense.

1216

"Q Referring to that request when

he came to you and said that there were materials

he would like to copy for his case, do you recall

the nature of the materials that he requested?

"A No, I don't recall.

"Q Were they materials that generally

were to relate to the subject of L. Ron Hubbard's

connection to or control over the Church of

Scientology?

"A That was my understanding, but as

to whether that was the fact or not, I couldn't

answer that, no.

"Q It was your understanding from

Mr. Armstrong --

"A That was the purpose. You are

inquiring as to the purpose. That was represented

to me as I understood it, yes. Yes.

"Q And then Mr. Armstrong, in fact got

some documents and then reviewed them with you,

is that right, as to what he was taking?

"A No, he didn't review them with me

at all. He said -- there are several occasions.

We're speaking of this as -- again, you are

trying to put it into a single incident when in

fact what you are referring to was an occasion

in which Mr. Armstrong took some documents for his

use in his case and left me a list of the

documents he took so that I would know what he

1217

had. But I did not review those and I do not

know what they were.

"Q Do you recall how much material he

took on that occasion, approximately?

"A It's simply an estimate on my part,

but I would guess about 12 binders.

"Q Would that fill -- just to try to

get a physical estimate of it. If you can't

answer it after I ask it, just tell me. Would

that be, say, one carton full?

"A Oh, no. You must understand that

all the binders were not uniform in size. Some

were extremely thin; and some of those that he

would have been interested in for the preparation

of a legal case were in fact documents that would

be single documents in a binder and therefore

quite thin.

"Q So to your understanding it would

be less than a carton?

"A Oh, yes, I think so. On this --

remember we're speaking of a specific occasion,

now. There were other occasions.

"Q Now, on the other occasions -- and

again I recognize you can't remember all of

the details. On the other occasions, was it also

your understanding that these documents were

being taken for use in his case?

"A Yes.

1218

"Q And if you have any idea or as best

you can, can you give me an estimate of the

total bulk of documents that he would have taken

from you. Would they have all together filled

one carton, say?

"A I have no idea. quite honestly,

because I don't know. It's the same thing I've said

repeatedly about --

"Q Let me explain one thing. I am not

asking for what was actually taken because I

realize you weren't there when Mr. Armstrong took

them. But as far as you understood of what

was being taken, I'm trying to get some ideas

of the amount of materials that we're dealing

with.

"Q Frankly, I don't know. Frankly,

I really don't know. This was, again, over a

period of time, and it's very difficult to -- to --

I want to be accurate because there's no point

in my just estimating it, and I really don't

know how much material Mr. Armstrong concluded

he needed or wanted for his -- for his case.

"Q The occasion that you described a

moment ago where you said he left you a list of

what he took. Was that around the time of the

Clearwater City Commission hearings?

"A No, it was afterwards. I believe.

I wouldn't want to be held to it, but I am -- my

1219

impression is it was considerably some time

afterward, but I'm not sure.

"Q In terms of the types of materials

which you would give permission to take, were

you agreeing to taking what you considered to

be private or confidential papers of Mr. and

Mrs. Hubbard?

"A They were characterized to me as

mostly legal documents that were necessary

because I was constantly like a broken record

telling Mr. Armstrong that under no circumstances

was he to take, to disseminate or let out of my

ken biographical information. My -- I was

constantly reminding him we'd have to limit the

material to what he needed for legal purposes;

and what that was I had no way of knowing because

I wasn't his attorney and I didn't -- I wasn't

in charge of his case. I didn't know what kind

of case they were working out. I never consulted

with them. But there was always the caution that

I didn't want any biographical materials to be

disseminated.

"Q So if I understand the situation

correctly, and please tell me if I'm wrong,

Mr. Armstrong came to you and said he needed

materials for his case, and you made a distinction

between legal documents and documents that related

to your work on the biography or that would

1220

be more personal documents that would only

be usable for the biography project as such,

and then left the judgment as to what fell into

those categories up to Mr. Armstrong?

"A Yes, that is correct.

1221

"Q I am going to attempt -- and I'm

not sure I'm going to succeed -- in seeing if I

can go through some different types of

materials with you and see if these are

materials that you know Mr. Armstrong has taken

from you or were within the category of the

types of materials that he had taken from you.

Letters of Mrs. Hubbard to

Mr. Hubbard. Do you know whether Mr. Armstrong

took any such materials from you?

"A Of my certain knowledge, no. No.

"Q He did not take any such?

"A No, I did not say that. I said

of my certain personal knowledge, I don't know.

"Q When you had the discussion with

Mr. Armstrong about his taking materials from

you, was it your understanding that he would be

taking such letters?

"A Well, it was well understood, as

I believe I told you in our initial

conversation, that I had no intention of using

Mrs. Hubbard's letters at all and in fact did

not.

"Q I understand that. From the

conversation between you and Mr. Armstrong

about the materials he said that he would be

getting from what you had, was it your

understanding that that would include letters

1222

of Mrs. Hubbard?

"A No. Letters of Mrs. Hubbard were

never discussed by us at all. I don't recall

in any context discussing Mrs. Hubbard's

letters with Mr. Armstrong other than the

reference that they were there in the material.

"Q How about tax documents?

"A There was one folder -- again,

I'd like to be precise, but I'm not certain on

that point. I think -- there certainly was no

discussion, and I may have provided him one

called 'Tax Matters.' I'm not sure about that.

There was one, I recall, one folder that had

that label.

"Q Let me go back for a moment

before I continue on this tack.

"Do you recall approximately when

the request came to you from Mr. Armstrong for

documents? I mean was it right after he left

the church or somewhat later?

"A No, no. It was somewhat later.

It was specifically -- without pinpointing it

in time, I can give it to you relatively. It

was, say, when he felt the necessity he said of

retaining counsel, and he had in fact, did

retain counsel, and at that point he needed, he

said he needed documents to support his case.

"Q Now, was that counsel, do you

1223

know, Michael Flynn?

"A I -- to the best of my belief, it

was, but I'm not sure because Mr. Armstrong

didn't confide in me chiefly because at that

point -- I mean with respect to his

counsel --chiefly because I think he felt I was

opposed to anything that Mr. Flynn might do

with any information he would get. I felt he

was in close contact with other writers, some

of whom I felt some doubt about; and I didn't

want them to obtain any material that I had for

my biography because, obviously, they'd use it.

And so I didn't -- I rather frowned on the idea

at that time of Mr. Armstrong having a relation

with Mr. Flynn at all; and he felt this

reluctance on my part, and he didn't discuss

any of the -- any of the details of his

association with Mr. Flynn.

"Q Did you communicate to

Mr. Armstrong your hesitancy to have materials

that you felt were important to the biography

that you were writing provided to Mr. Flynn

because there was a danger that they in turn

could be passed on to other writers?

"A Repeatedly.

"Q Now, I'm going to ask you just

about what's really a completely unsystematic

list of materials just to try to get a sense of

1224

certain things and see if can jog your memory

or not. This relates to what to your under-

standing was provided to Mr. Armstrong by you.

"For example, do you have any

recollection of whether there were any

newspaper clippings from the late 1950s that

Mr. Armstrong took from you?

"A Gee, I don't recall any at all.

I'm not sure. Could you be more specific?

What kind of newspaper clippings?

"Q All I know about them is that

there were some newspaper clippings from the

years 1957 to 1961 that had comments by

Mr. Hubbard, apparently.

"A I recall only one, which had to

do with horticulture -- and the reason I recall

it is that I just found it, and I've just

returned it this morning -- and I found it in

my files. It was from an English newspaper,

and it had to do with Mr. Hubbard's work with

plants in England. Apart from that the only

other one I recall, I think, was some account

of the ship APOLLO, it's latter history.

"Q Did you have any understanding

that such newspaper clippings were to be

provided to Mr. Armstrong as part of the

materials that you were giving him?

"A Well, of course, I had no idea

1225

what was going to be provided Mr. Armstrong.

It just -- you know, it just came over the

transom, and I grabbed it.

"Q No, no, no. You are back in a

different time period than I am.

"A I see. Maybe I don't understand

you.

"Q I'm referring now to -- not the

period that Mr. Armstrong was gathering up

materials to give you but the period when he

came to you and said that he needed certain

materials. And what I'm trying to get an

understanding of in general in these questions

is the types of materials that you understood

that he would be taking from what you had, and

one example would be -- for instance, would it

have been your understanding that part of what

he was getting from you would have been some

newspaper clippings?

"A No, absolutely not. I wasn't

aware of any newspaper clippings at all.

"Q How about earlier incomplete

biographical sketches of Mr. Hubbard? Same

question.

"A I'm not quite sure I understand

the identity of the document you are talking

about. Is this -- the church has provided all

sorts of biographical sketches of Mr. Hubbard.

1226

"Q Apparently this is an early,

incomplete biographical sketch.

"A Well, there are so many I really

couldn't say because I have seen various ones

dating back to --

"Q How about letters between Mr. Hubbard

and A. E. Van Vogt? Would it be your

understanding that Mr. Armstrong would have

been getting such letters from you?

"A Specifically, I don't recall, but

I rather think, yes.

"Q How about letters between

Mr. Hubbard and L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. -- then

L. Ron Hubbard, Jr., now Ronald De Wolfe --

from the late '50s?

"A No, not to my recollection or

knowledge.

1227

"Q How about letters between Mr. Hubbard

and his son?

"A I don't recall specifically what,

but it's quite possible.

"Q That you would have given such

materials to Mr. Armstrong?

"A If -- if they appeared relevant

to his announced purpose, yes.

"Q How about premarital agreements

between Mr. Hubbard and Mary Sue Hubbard?

"A Well, I saw those but I don't

know whether Mr. Armstrong -- whether -- he

didn't ask specifically for them.

"Q Would it have been your

understanding that that was the type of

material you told him he could take?

"A Well, again, if it appeared that

that -- at the moment I don't see any relation,

but anyway, it didn't come up between us.

Q Personal letters between L. Ron

and Mary Sue Hubbard?

"A Mr. Armstrong didn't specifically

ask for any of those, didn't ask me for any of

those.

"Q If he had asked you for that,

would you have given it to him?

"A Well, that's an assumption which,

if it were not assumed it would depend on what

1228

the circumstances were. You see, I don't --

quite frankly, I haven't read all those

letters. And I don't know what's in them as I

wasn't going to use them and Mrs. Hubbard is

quite prolix in everything she wrote, going on

and on about minor details about the children

and so on. I didn't see any good reason if I

am not going to use them to read through all

that. There are page after page of these

letters.

"Q How about letters between

Mr. Hubbard and Volney Mathison?

"A I don't believe I've ever seen

one.

"Q You don't believe you have ever

seen any letters between Mr. Hubbard and

Mr. Volney Mathison?

"A Let me put it this way: I don't

recall having seen any letters between them.

It doesn't mean they they didn't exist or I

didn't have them right under my hands, but I

don't recall them.

"Q How about correspondence between

Mr. Hubbard and the British Home Office,

mid-'60s?

"A I don't recall specifically any

such letter.

"Q How about Mr. Hubbard's Naval

1229

records?

"A Yes.

"Q It was your understanding that

Mr. Armstrong was taking those?

"A Yes, yes -- well, not all of

them. They're quite extensive. Just selected

ones, I believe.

"Q According to my notes -- these

notes, for your reference, are notes taken by

going through the documents that are under

seal. These are several hundred pages in the

court of such Naval records.

"A Well, all that I saw or had, I

returned. So whatever was in that. But I

remember there were a number of binders and

also one binder called -- maybe two binders

called 'Board of Investigation' which actually

related to his Naval experience.

"Q Well, my question here is -- you

did, I know you had such binders. My question

here goes to your understanding of the nature

of the materials Mr. Armstrong was taking from

you.

"Was it your understanding that

part of what he needed for his legal case were

Mr. Hubbard's Naval records?

"A I'm not quite sure. But I

believe I would have -- I don't -- let me

1230

answer your question first of all specifically.

I don't recall any such discussion or

understanding, but had it arisen, I would have

weighed it in the limited context of my

knowledge of what his case was -- and I still

don't know what it is -- and if it had appeared

to me that it would have been helpful to him, I

would have been certainly agreeable to his

using it.

"Q Well, let me ask you a question:

You described your understanding of the type of

materials that Mr. Armstrong wanted which

basically had to do with the relationship

between Mr. Hubbard and the church.

"A Yes, especially with respect to

control and so on.

"Q You were not prepared to give

Mr. Armstrong, if I understand correctly,

personal material that had to do with

Mr. Hubbard's personal life which might, say,

contradict other statements that had been made

by the church? These were not the type of

materials that you were providing to

Mr. Armstrong; is that right?

"A If I felt if they were not? That

is a hypothetical question you are asking me

because specifically, it didn't arise. But you

are asking now for a --

1231

"Q Well, actually, I am not asking a

hypothetical question. I am asking for your

understanding. In other words, in terms of

what you thought you were giving and what your

understanding