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SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DEPARTMENT NO. 57        HON. PAUL G. BRECKENRIDGE, JR., JUDGE

 

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA,

Plaintiff,

vs.

GERALD ARMSTRONG,

Defendant.


MARY SUE HUBBARD,

Intervenor.


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No. C 420153

REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, May 9, 1984

 

APPEARANCES:        

  (See Appearances page.)

 

 

 

VOLUME 8

Pages 1178 - 1388

  NANCY L. HARRIS, CSR #644
HERB CANNON, CSR #1923
Official Reporters
   
 

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APPEARANCES:

 

For the Plaintiff:

PETERSON & BRYNAN
BY: JOHN G. PETERSON
8530 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 407
Beverly Hills, California 90211
(213) 659-9965

-and-

ROBERT N. HARRIS
The Oviatt Building
617 South Olive Street
Suite 915
Los Angeles, California 90014
(213) 623-7511

 

For the Intervenor:

LITT & STORMER
BY: BARRETT S. LITT
Paramount Plaza
3550 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 1200
Los Angeles, California 90010
(213) 386-4303

-and-

BARRETT S. LITT
BY: MICHAEL S. MAGNUSON
The Oviatt Building
617 South Olive Street
Suite 1000
Los Angeles, California 90014
(213) 623-7511

 

For the Defendant:

CONTOS & BUNCH
BY: MICHAEL J. FLYNN

- and-

JULIA DRAGOJEVIC
5855 Topanga Canyon Boulevard
Suite 400
Woodland Hills, California 91367
(213) 716-9400

 

 

 

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VOLUME 8

I N D E X

Day Date Session Page

Wednesday May 9, 1984 A.M. 1178
    P.M. 1285

PLAINTIFF RESTS

 

  Page 1358

DEFENSE MOTION FOR NONSUIT

 

  Page 1358

PLAINTIFF'S ARGUMENT ON MOTION FOR NONSUIT

 

Page 1358

E X H I B I T S

 

PLAINTIFF'S
IDENTIFIED
RECEIVED

15 - (Previously identified)

 

1187

16 - (Previously identified)

 

  1187

17 - (Previously identified)

 

  1187

18 - (Previously identified)

 

  1185

19 - (Previously identified)

 

  1185

20 - (Previously identified)

 

  1185

21 - (Previously identified)

 

  1185

22 - (Previously identified)

 

1254 1356

DEFENSE:

 

   

G - (Previously identified)

 

  1187

I - (Previously identified)

 

  1187
 

 

 
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LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, MAY 9, 1984; 9:45 A.M.

-o0o-

 

THE COURT: All right. In the case on trial let the

record reflect that counsel are present.

You may proceed.

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.

Your Honor, before we proceed to read

Mr. Garrison's deposition testimony let me see if we can

deal with some other housekeeping matters. One, there are

a few items of evidence that we would like to move in.

We would like to move in exhibit 1. Before

we do so, if the court feels it is necessary on the question

of unavailability I have and am obtaining a certified copy

of, which should be here by the noon break, the decision in

the case in re Estate of L. Ron Hubbard, a missing

person which is a decision of the Superior Court of the

State of California for the County of Riverside which states

in relevant part:

"That the lack of information as to

Mr. Hubbard's present address is a matter of

choice by Mr. Hubbard. Mr. Hubbard's constitutional

right of privacy gives him a right to keep his

residence a secret from the public, and therefore

he is not a missing person."

 

 

 
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And we offer that as further evidence that

Mr. Hubbard is in seclusion. It is a judicial finding by

the court of this state. We don't really think it is necessary.

Mrs. Hubbard has testified to it, but we

are prepared to add that on the unavailability issue. And

we would ask that the court take judicial notice of that

decision.

If the court wishes, we'll provide certified

copies, although I believe counsel for the defendant is

fully aware of the decision.

MR. FLYNN: I would like to be heard on that, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: Are you through?

MR LITT: On that, I am through, Your Honor. And then

on -- we would move in exhibit 1. We have other exhibits,

but I assume Mr. Flynn wants to be heard on exhibit 1.

THE COURT: Mr. Flynn.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, with regard to the decision

in the probate case, it is over a year old, first.

Secondly, it is simply a decision that in

the context of the California Missing Persons Statute where

a person is missing for more than 90 days, the court found

because of a declaration submitted by L. Ron Hubbard under

the pain of penalty of perjury, which has not been done in

this case, that Mr. Hubbard was not missing. That was the

entire scope of the ruling. It had nothing to do with

availability for purposes of service of process or service

of a witness subpoena.

 

 

 
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Secondly, the Federal District Court in Tampa

in a copy of a ruling that I have provided to the court

specifically found that L. Ron Hubbard is concealing himself.

The court stated at page 5 -- and this opinion

was subsequently appealed on two occasions to the Fifth

Circuit Court of Appeal which is now the Eleventh Circuit

Court of Appeal. And the decision of the Federal Judge

was confirmed.

MR. LITT: That is simply an incorrect misstatement.

There was an interlocutory appeal. The Eleventh

Circuit Court did not hear the interlocutory appeal. There

was no affirmation.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard

submitted approximately a foot of materials to the Eleventh

Circuit Court of Appeal. The court rejected the appeal.

The Federal District Court in Florida ruled as follows:

"The Court of Appeals opinion confirms

such projects as 'red box' an organized effort

on the part of persons within the church to hide

the whereabouts of key personnel and key documents.

Exhibit 3 to Lisa's deposition is 'Operation

Bulldozer Leak', the stated purpose of which is

to spread the rumor that L. Ron Hubbard has

no control of the church and no legal liability

for it. To the extent that the church is shown to

be Hubbard's agents, these are efforts of

concealment attributable to him."

And the court rules further on that page,

 

 

 
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" ... these comprise corroborative and supportive evidence

of the Hubbards' efforts and intent to conceal themselves.

Accordingly, the file herein presents a showing sufficient

to indicate concealment under Florida law."

 

 

   
 
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Now, this court is confronted with a situation

where one federal court has ruled that L. Ron Hubbard is

hiding from service of process. The court has received for

identification this exhibit which initially when it was

provided to the court was provided with an attached affidavit

of a Mr. Brunell that was secured by an attorney named

Lawrence Heller, and the exhibit 1 is dated February 3, 1982,

and Mr. Brunell provided the special ink in which the letter

is written and states in his affidavit, which we intend to

introduce through Mr. Heller who we have subpoenaed in our part

of the case, that the special ink was prepared and transmitted

to Mr. Hubbard on February 2nd, and the letter is dated

February 3rd.

I submit that that supports an inference on

the part of Mr. Hubbard's attorneys, of which Mr. Heller

is one, of immediate access to Mr. Hubbard. We have

subpoenaed, as I indicated, Mr. Heller to appear before this

court.

Lastly, we succeeded in subpoenaing last night

Dr. Eugene Denk. Dr. Denk is Mr. Hubbard's physician, and

we have testimony from other individuals that he has been his

physician from at least 1979.

We believe that Dr. Denk has seen Mr. Hubbard

in California within the last five to six months, and on one

occasion took an electrocardiogram machine out of his

office and took it to Mr. Hubbard's location. We have

received information as to where Mr. Hubbard's location may

be.

 

 

 
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We have received information that there are

three separate homes that have been set up as residences

under an assumed name, and that Mr. Hubbard --

MR. LITT: Your Honor, can we not have these -- we

have spent this whole case hearing about Mr. Flynn's

incriminations. Let's get to facts.

What are we supposed to do with information

he's received? I have heard so many statements from Mr. Flynn

of information that he has that has not turned out to be

any such information, has not turned out to be evidence. I

don't think it is right.

THE COURT: I think if we are going to get involved

in a dispute, it is going to have to be presented by way

of evidence and not by way of assertion.

I have already made some indication in my

rulings on the in limine matter. I don't know that there's

anything that's occurred since then that would cause me

to change my mind, but let me look at this letter. It

will be helpful if you could read this.

MR. LITT: There is an attached typed --

THE COURT: Interpretation.

Well, the letter purports to have been

written February 3rd, 1983. Under 1250 of the Evidence Code

this would be evidence of Mr. Hubbard's state of mind at

that time, and as far as I am concerned, it is evidence of

his state of mind on February 3rd that he'd like to have

the belongings returned to the church or the legal representative

of it. As to what he may have done in years before, it is

 

 

 
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not admissible under 1250 subsection (b).

Under 1251, evidence of a previous existing

mental state, there has to be unavailability and it has to

go to his state of mind and not a corporeal act or that he

acted in accordance with that state of mind, and further

under 1252 the evidence is admissible under the article that

the statement was made under circumstances such to indicate

its lack of trustworthiness.

 

 

 
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THE COURT: I would not receive this even if he were

unavailable to prove the truth of what is asserted there.

I consider it to be hearsay, as I have indicated before.

And I think that there is nothing to indicate anything that

relates to its trustworthiness. And there is no opportunity

to cross-examine.

So I would not receive it for that purpose,

but I'll receive it under 1250 of the Evidence Code which

doesn't require unavailability insofar as the third paragraph

is concerned in which he requests that it be returned.

It is received for that limited purpose.

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.

The next item -- I just want to go through at

this point and clean up moving whatever into evidence. And

I am just going through as they are marked.

I think the next item is actually a defendant's

exhibit which we are all in agreement on which is the Omar

Garrison PUBS DK agreement which was marked by the defendant

as exhibit G. He would move that in.

THE COURT: Why don't we stick with plaintiff's

exhibits first? Are they all in?

MR. LITT: No, Your Honor.

The next on the plaintiff's exhibits, that we

would move in are exhibits 17 through 21 which Mr. Peterson

testified to yesterday.

THE COURT: Is there any objection to those letters

and bills?

MR. FLYNN: No objection to the letters, Your Honor.

 

 

 
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I object to the bills for the reasons stated yesterday.

THE COURT: I'll overrule the objection. They'll be

received with the same comments the court made yesterday

relative to the objections.

MR. LITT: That takes care of all of the plaintiff's

exhibits that we are moving into evidence at this time.

Exhibits 15 and 16, we do not want to move

into evidence at this time, Your Honor, because they are

lists of the sealed documents. And unless they are going

to be received as such under seal, we are just reluctant

to move them into evidence.

The court knows our feelings about doing

anything that makes these matters a public record.

THE COURT: Are those the ones that indicate which is

private and confidential? If it wasn't developed, how am I

going to receive it?

MR. LITT: The court, at least, for the present, until

the case begins and we see what has and hasn't come out in

the way of documents, the court can agree to receive that

at this time under seal.

THE COURT: This is just an inventory with comments

personal and private; isn't it?

MR. LITT: That is all it is, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Or a statement that is to be filed with

the court anyway as a list of exhibits?

MR. LITT: Yes.

THE COURT: I see no reason to put that under seal.

MR. HARRIS: So long as it is not considered any sort

 

 

 
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of waiver in respect to the actual documents which underlie

the index, Your Honor; no problem. We'll move it in.

THE COURT: I have no feeling that it would constitute

any kind of waiver. Your position is very clear. I understand

your position.

MR. HARRIS: We'll move them into evidence.

THE COURT: 15 and 16 are received.

MR. LITT: Exhibit G, Your Honor.

MR. FLYNN: I have no objection, Your Honor, as long

as the two attachments are also marked which are exhibit I.

THE COURT: They may be attached by stipulation.

I don't think there is any evidence.

MR. HARRIS: There was one which there was testimony

about which was --

MR. LITT: I have the original agreement here, Your

Honor, if I can find it. And we can --

Mr. Flynn, what are you referring to as the

attachment?

MR. FLYNN: The letter of L. Ron Hubbard with the

initials OVG in the lower right-hand corner dated March 16,

1977.

MR. LITT: Oh, yes. It is a part of it. That is

fine.

MR. HARRIS: We have no objection.

THE COURT: We have the G and I.

MR. FLYNN: I have no objection to it being merged

into one exhibit.

THE COURT: All right. Then I'll receive G and I with

 

 

 
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the understanding that I was included within exhibit G.

Are those the only exhibits you want to offer

of the defense?

MR. LITT: At this time, yes, Your Honor.

Your Honor, may I make one other inquiry

before we begin, which is that the process of absorbing the

defendant's marked exhibits has still been a difficult process

for us because each day at the end of the day the defendant

marked more exhibits and including the last day after we had

had the last access to the documents. I wonder if the

court would permit Mr. Long, who is here, who has been

acting -- he is a church staff member from the legal bureau

of the church and has been acting as a factual research

assistant. I wonder if the court would permit that he sit

in the jury box with the defendant's exhibits just so he

can review them and make some notes on them for our purposes?

THE COURT: Which defense exhibits?

MR. LITT: The sealed exhibits.

Our problem is that some of them, we are not

even sure still what the notations even refer to or what

the contents of some of them are.

THE COURT: You mean while we are conduting the trial?

MR. LITT: I know there is some concern about the

security of the documents. So I am just trying to think

of any means that would allow him, since they are here now,

to be able to review them while the trial is proceeding in

some form.

If the jury box isn't a good suggestion, I am

 

 

 

 
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open to whatever makes the most sense.

THE COURT: Maybe Nick can sit with him.

Do you want to sit with him and watch what he

is doing?

THE COURT ATTENDANT: I suppose so.

THE COURT: Maybe it would be better over here where

there are no other people around.

Why don't you tell him which ones you want

and the clerk will --

MR. LITT: Mr. Long will bring the list to the bailiff.

THE COURT: Are we going to proceed with the reading

of Mr. Garrison's depo?

MR. LITT: Yes, we are. Your Honor.

I have the original of the transcript with

me.

The set that the court has received is the

set that has the blue markings and the red markings. Because

that is all I had.

THE COURT: Mr. Litt, you can read Mr. Litt's questions

and Mr. Harris can read Ms. Dragojevic's questions and I can

rule on the objections as we deal with them.

 

 

 
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THE COURT: What about the -- there are a couple of

exhibits here. Are we going to use those exhibits in this

proceeding?

MR. LITT: Well, one of the exhibits is the agreement.

THE COURT: Okay. That is G.

MR. LITT: We will refer to it by G. The exhibit

that is marked exhibit 1 in this deposition transcript would

be exhibit G in this case.

There is a second exhibit which is a statement

of the agreement, settlement agreement between Mr. Garrison

and New Era Publications which has not yet been marked as

an exhibit and that when we come to it we will mark as

plaintiff's next in order.

THE COURT: Very well.

" OMAR GARRISON,

having been called as a witness on behalf of the

Intervenor, was duly sworn, examined, and

testified as follows:"

Beginning with page 5.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I think we can skip the

medical questions. We can go to page 6, line 18.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. FLYNN: I take it then I am going to follow after.

Wherever Mr. Litt stops, I am going to join in?

THE COURT: Where Mrs. Dragojevic asks the question.

MR. FLYNN: And Mr. Harris is going to be kind enough

to ask me the questions?

MR. HARRIS: I didn't know I was volunteering for that,

 

 

 
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but okay.

THE COURT: Well, if you start having problems, let

us know.

MR. HARRIS: Okay.

MR. LITT: (Reading:)

"Q Let me begin by asking: Mr.Garrison,

what is your occupation?

"A I'm a professional author.

"Q And where do you reside?

"A I reside at 1099 West Cedar Knolls

South, Cedar City, Utah.

"Q Can you describe just very briefly

the books that you have published, specifically

books that relate to the subject of Scientology.

You don't have to go through everything.

"A No. I have 14 books in print; it

would be very rather difficult.

"With respect to Scientology, the first

book I did was one called The Hidden Story of

Scientology. Do you want to know basically

what it's about?

"Q Just the title is all right.

"A The next one which dealt with

Scientology, at least peripherally, was one

called The Secret World of Interpol; and there

was a third one, the last one, which is entitled

Playing Dirty and has a subtitle The Secret War

Against Beliefs.

 

 

 

 
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"Q Some time in the year 1980, did you

enter into a contract to write a biography on the

subject of L. Ron Hubbard?

"A I did.

"Q Showing you Exhibit" -- what is now

Exhibit G -- "can you examine that document

and tell me if that is a copy of the contract

which you entered into to write that biography?

"A As each page with the exception of one

page, namely page 8, bears my initials, I assume

that it's the same document.

"Q With whom did you enter into that

agreement?

"A I'm not quite sure with whom I was

entering the agreement at all. The name on the

contract was an entity known as, I believe,

Publications DK.

"Q 'DK' referring to Denmark?

"A Denmark.

"Q And this biography, was there an

arrangement with respect to it that would

involve cooperation by the Church of Scientology

and by L. Ron and Mary Sue Hubbard with respect

to the biography?

"A Yes, indeed, very much so. I was to

be provided with all -- I believe the contract

itself spells it out -- all necessary materials

to do a full and complete biography.

 

 

 
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"Q Was it an authorized biography?

"A I'm not competent legally to say

what an authorized biography is. If you mean was

it my understanding that L. Ron Hubbard approved

it, yes, indeed. I have a memo to that effect

signed -- initialed by Mr. Hubbard.

"Q Now, in drafting the biography, were

you to be provided materials by the Church of

Scientology of California to assist you and provide

you background information in writing the

biography?

"A No. At no time was it specified

where the material would come from except from

Mr. Gerry Armstrong who was appointed as my

research assistant. Now this occurred when I

first met Mr. Armstrong in England in East

Grinstead, Sussex. He was introduced to me as

the archivist who had charge of biographical

materials and would have more, I believe;

and it was my understanding that a general memo

had been circulated to other parts of the Church

of Scientology saying that this biography was

being done, and if they had any pertinent material,

they were to send it to Mr. Armstrong.

"So as to the source of the material,

I honestly cannot say where it came from or who had

it. It was first introduced to me by Mr. Armstrong.

"Q When did you first meet Mr. Armstrong?

 

 

 

 
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"A I can't give you the exact date off

the top of my head, but it is fairly well

documented because I was in East Grinstead at

the time, and it was a few months prior to signing

of the contract.

"Q Was it essentially in the context

of discussions about how the biography would

proceed; is that right?

"A No. At that time --

 

 

 
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"Q Negotiations --

"A At that time, remember, I had not

signed -- at that time I had not really agreed

until knowing that they would conform to certain

conditions I had. At that point I had not either

signed under the contract or agreed to do it.

I was very hesitant at that point.

"Q And the contract itself was signed,

I believe, October 30, 1980; is that right?

"A Yes, approximately.

"Q Is that your recollection?

"A Yes; in Los Angeles.

"Q At that time was Mr. Armstrong

working as an archivist or the archivist?

"A Yes. Well, it is my understanding

he was.

"Q That was the information you received?

"A That was the information I had, yes.

"Q Both from Mr. Armstrong and other

people?

"A Other people, responsible people in

the church.

"Q Do you know where Mr. Armstrong had

his office, his archives office?

"A Those that I saw --- and, incidentally,

I don't have access to -- but I saw them. They

were in the Cedars of Lebanon building known as the

Cedars Complex.

 

 

 
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"Q That's at the Church of Scientology

facilities in Hollywood?

"A Well, it's known as the Cedars Complex.

It's their principal building here, I think.

"Q Now, once you signed the contract

did Mr. Armstrong begin to provide you with

materials to be used for it?

"A Yes. He provided me copies.

And it involved rather extensive copying of original

documents. And the documents, as I understood

it, were arriving as we went along from other places

as well in addition to those he already had. So

I have no personal knowledge of what the setup

is with regard to what he had and what he

received later. But he began to provide me

with material from that point, from the point

of signing up the contract.

"Q Now, in the past you indicated that

you had written other subjects that generally

were in the area of Scientology. Had you been

provided materials in preparing those?

"A Copious materials, enormous amounts

of material.

"Q And had it been your general practice

to keep those materials confidential between you

and the people who had provided them to you

essentially?

"A Yes.

 

 

 
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"Q And was it your understanding that

the same practice would apply to the materials

provided for this --

"A Oh, yes.

"Q Let me follow out, if I can for a

moment, how this contract would work. Was there

a mechanism by which after you drafted a manuscript

that it would be provided to certain people for

their review?

"A I think you'll find the document

itself is the best answer to that. I think it

really mentions names of people. I haven't looked

at the document recently because it's null and

void so far as I am concerned. And as you know now,

it is legally as well; so I haven't had occasion

to refresh my memory as to who those persons were,

but I believe they are named in the document.

"Q Well, specifically, and correct me if

I am wrong --

"A David Gayman was one. And he, of

course, is now outside the pale; and I believe

Mr. Hubbard was another. But I don't recall the

third person. There were three, were there not?

In any event, it is in the document.

"Q And after this was subjected to review

could proposed changes be suggested to you?

"A Well, again, my memory is that they

could. But as you have the document before you,

 

 

 
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I think you could refer to it and it could tell

you."

MR. LITT: I wasn't going to read the next.

THE COURT: I thnk Mr. Flynn wants it all.

MR. LITT: I'll read my questions because there was

no objection by me to them.

"Q And was it your understanding that

in the event for whatever reason that an agree-

ment could not be reached as to the content of

the document, there was a method by which the

manuscript would not be published and you would

be reimbursed? Was that also part of the

contract?

"A Again, the contract is there before

you. The contract in my opinion was obtained

fraudulently and so for that reason I've not

again reviewed it and refreshed my memory on it."

MR. LITT: I move to strike that answer as non-

responsive, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. It will be stricken.

MR. LITT: (Reading):

"Q All I'm asking you here is not the

financial arrangements of the contract or whatever,

but was it your understanding when you entered

into the contract that there was a mechanism

by which --

"A Yes.

"Q If an agreement at the present

 

 

 
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time could not be reached, there could be an

arrangement by which you could be reimbursed --

"A Yes.

"Q -- and the manuscript not actually

be published?

"A Yes.

"Q Thank you. Give me a description,

and here I don't want a detailed description,

but a general description of the types of materials

that Mr. Armstrong as the archivist made available

to you in the course of your work on the

biography.

"A To a biographer, anything whatsoever

pertaining to the person about whom you are

writing is grist for the mill. I want to sort

of preface it with that.

"The material that Mr. Armstrong provided

me ran the whole gamut from ordinary -- let's say,

the baby book, the beginning of Mr. Hubbard's

career, his letters; there were legal documents;

there were -- everything, all the material that

would go into a classic biography.

"Q Were they extensive?

"A Extremely so, yes.

"Q Can you give me any kind of estimate

of the volume of them?

"A I'm still trying to determine that

because I had such enormous reserves of documents

 

 

 
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left from the last book that related to

Mr. Hubbard as well that for the last three years

I've been reviewing not only the material that

Mr. Armstrong gave me, but all that went before.

So it's intermingled. And I can give you a rough

estimate, for what it's worth, as to worth -- you

want the number of pages or -- "

 

 

 
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"Q However you find it easiest. I

realize we can't be precise but --

"A Well, there were in terms of binders --

because much of this material was collected into

individual binders. There were, I believe,

some 300-and-some-odd which -- the Scientologists

have a way of computing documents, as dating from

the time of those they took in Washington, as

stacking them up on the side. If this is true,

I might have a five-foot stack of documents.

"Q Were you provided materials by

anyone other than Mr. Armstrong?

"A Oh, yes. Different people. I couldn't

tell you everybody, Sullivan; people even wrote

me from Denmark.

"Q But the primary person was Mr. Armstrong?

"A Yes. He was my research assistant

so it was his job.

"Q Do you know what his actual title

was? Was it 'Archivist' to your knowledge?

"A This was my information; and research assistant.

"Q And was it your understanding that

that was a church title of some kind?

"A I have no idea; their titles are

very mysterious.

"Q Would you at times request from

Mr. Armstrong certain types of materials?

 

 

 
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"A Yes. Not frequently because he was

always ahead of me. In other words, the documents

that he had provided me I was still reviewing

and going through and making notes from and cross-

referencing. Always there was a backlog of

material I hadn't got to, and this was the case

right up to the end. As you know, there were

several documents I hadn't even seen or gone

through because I didn't get to them.

"But on occasion when a question would arise,

I would make a note of it and I thought he might

have the answer to, and then he would say, yes,

it may be in this or that document, and he'd

go into the files and look for it.

"Q Were many of the materials from what

you could determine personal records of Mr. or

Mrs. Hubbard?

"A Very personal records.

"Q And would it be fair to say that upon

completion of the project and in the event there

was a request for the return of them, that it

would have been both your practice and your

understanding that they would be returned with

the possible exception of materials that were

directly used by you?

"A I think so. I have a reluctance to

have other people's personal matters in my files

and -- but I would have retained through publication

 

 

 

 
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and beyond, at least beyond the statutory limits,

any material related to what I had published

simply out of a -- simply as a protection against

future suits.

"Q So, in other words, the materials that

were given to you were materials provided to you

for your use as opposed for your personal ownership;

would that be a fair statement?

"A That's an assumption. Curiously when

we got to look at the contract -- it never

occurred to me because this has never been a

problem before. But when my attorney -- when

you first brought up, I believe, the question

of return of all the documents and then they

issued this -- this subpoena duces tecum to

me over there, saying bring everything you ever

owned about scientology, we got to thinking

about it, and my attorney looked at the contract,

and he said nowhere in there does it require me to

return anything.

"Q I understand that the contract

itself is silent on that point.

"A Yes. But if you mean is it my

practice, would I have done it, yes.

"Q That had been the practice on your

other --

"A Not always. They didn't -- as

time -- it was the practice with the first book,

 

 

 

 
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and after that I think that the knowledge

finally grew on them that I was a person who

could be trusted, and they never requested

the return of any other material. I have very

sensitive materials relating to the other books,

some of it very sensitive.

"Q Did you ever provide access to any

of these materials to anyone who was not part

of the church?

"A I did not, that is, not knowingly,

not with my consent.

"Q What was your understanding, if

you had, ones as to who owned the materials,

copies of which were provided to you?

"A The question never arose.

"Q Let we ask it this way: I take it

you were able to determine that there was a

variety of materials, some of which could be

categorized as personal papers of Mr. Hubbard

and Mrs. Hubbard, some of which/were from the church

files; is that right?

"A There was very little comparatively.

If you take the entire body of the material,

I'd say that almost nothing was church -- this

is the material that I had and was provided me

where, if you wanted to characterize them, you

would say they are the private papers of L. Ron Hubbard.

"Q To you knowledge, had these papers

 

 

 
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or were these papers made available to anyone

from outside the church other than you?

"A Would you repeat that, I didn't

quite follow.

"Q To your knowledge, had these papers

ever been made available to anyone from outside

of the church other than yourself?

"A Not in the sense of my having seen

them pass from one hand to another. It's just

a general loose understanding, an assumption

that they would have been used, certain ones,

in another, in another context. But as for my

personal knowledge of it, no, I can't say that

I ever knew.

"Q Explain to me how Mr. Armstrong

would work with you as your research assistant

on the biography. Explain the working relationship

between the two of you.

"A Generally speaking, Mr. Armstrong

was an extremely efficient researcher in that he --

we had a vast body of material that was just

miscellaneous that he had apparently brought in

or sent in or acquired or wherever it came from.

And he was able to take this and, it seemed to

me, in a very short time and intelligently sorted

out and put it into binders in such a way that it

would save me hours and hours and hours of work

trying to relate one thing to another.

 

 

 
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"So that if in one binder there was

within a certain time period there were certain

developments, and over here in another time

period there were developments way down the

road that related to these, I didn't have to

wait until I got down there, but there would be

a cross reference or the documents itself in there.

So in that sense I was extremely grateful,

and I still am extremely grateful for the work

he did.

"So to answer it in a general way, he was

a very able researcher, and he knew -- he had

the ability, which is important, to keep everything

in his head as well. So that if I asked -- there

were thousands of details, minute details;

and if I said, 'Well, somewhere I recall -- I

didn't make a note of it at the time, but I

recall that there was a reference to an incident

that occurred in 1932 in Puerto Rico,' he would

say, 'Yes, it's in this or that binder.' And

I'd know right where -- so from that point of

view it was extraordinary really.

 

 

 
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"Q So essentially it sounds like

from what you are saying that he played two

interrelated roles. One is he gathered

materials and provided to you what he thought

would be relevant to the biography and,

secondly, he was a resource on whom you could

draw if you had a question about those

materials?

"A Right.

"Q Now, I have a list. And I just

want to go over it real briefly. This is a

list of, at least, some of the types of

documents that Mr. Armstrong has previously

indicated were among the materials provided to

you.

"There were letters between

Mr. Hubbard and his various wives?

"A Yes.

"Q Documents from Mr. Hubbard's

Naval career?

"A Yes.

"Q Correspondence with various

agents and publishers between Mr. Hubbard and

others?

"A Yes.

"Q Correspondence or other files

relating to friends of Mr. Hubbard's or

acquaintances?

 

 

 

 
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"A Relating -- I don't --

"Q In other words, letters or

whatever between personal acquaintances --

"A Yes.

"Q -- and Mr. Hubbard?

"A Yes, 'writer friends,' I think

was the title.

"Q Files of various written

materials by Mr. Hubbard, original written

materials, manuscripts?

"A Well, they weren't originals in

the sense -- with one or two exceptions, they

were copies of originals, yes.

"Q Awards that Mr. Hubbard had

received in the course of his life?

"A Possibly, yes, I believe there

were one or two.

"Q Correspondence between

Mr. Hubbard and other family members aside from

his wives?

"A Yes.

"Q Childhood information such as Boy

Scouts, a variety of sort of miscellaneous --

'memorabilia' would be the best word?

"A Yes, memorabilia concerning his

Boy Scout period, yes.

"Q Diaries and journals?

"A Yes.

 

 

 
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"Q Can you think of any other

general categories that I haven't included?

"A Yes -- well, no. Mostly -- you

see, you've given a more-or-less broad -- some

of those categories are broadly descriptive. I

think you can subsume mose of the materials

under those you've given.

"Q Now, at some point you became

aware that Mr. Armstrong had left the church

and was no longer the church archivist; is that

correct?

"A Yes.

"Q Would that be in -- sometime

around Christmas of 1981 that you --

"A I believe so.

"Q -- learned this?

"A In that general time period, yes.

It was after Christmas, just following

Christmas, I think.

"Q Mr. Armstrong called you and

advised you that he had left the church?

"A Yes.

"Q Now, for the period, say, the two

or three months immediately prior to that -- I

am referring now to that being the time

Mr. Armstrong left the church --

"A Yes.

"Q -- had you received any large

 

 

 
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body of materials for your biography from

Mr. Armstrong?

"A My recollection is that I did.

I'm not quite certain as to how much, but it

seems to me, if I recall correctly, at that

period -- well, again, this came to me all the

way along the line and more or less in bunches.

I'd receive a number of binders at the same

time. But generally speaking, I believe that

there was some -- I would say a little more

toward the end than there had been in the

immediate preceding months.

"Q I know it's a while ago so I

recognize it's hard. But when you say 'a

little more,' would it be like --

"A Well, I honestly don't remember.

I really don't. These things -- I remember I

thought we were at the end of everything,

staring the first two months afterward. You

must realize that I had no idea that all this

material existed and I don't think anyone else

did. I don't think Mr. Armstrong did. I think

it just proliferated.

"Q Let me ask you the question this

way: In the months of November of December,

were you given several thousand additional

pages?

"A No. I don't believe so. I don't

 

 

 

 
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recall that many.

"Q So to the best of your

recollection it may be a few hundred, something

like that?

"A I would characterize it by number

because I honestly don't remember. And, you

see, this had been an ongoing project over

three years and it's -- I honestly don't

remember any given time how much I received at

one time.

"Q Now, as I understand it

Mr. Armstrong agreed to continue to help you

out for a while in your biography?

"A Yes. He did at my request.

"Q And was the assistance that he

gave you in the form of continuing to be a

resource to help to answer questions or --

"A It was chiefly --

"Q Or help locate things --

"A That was it. It was to help

locate things and materials. That was it, to

help me locate things. Because as I said, he

had a very astonishing recall and memory of

where things were and it saved me hours and

hours because I could say 'Well, where is

this?' And also he was able to readjust some

of this material so it would bring it in

alignment and I wouldn't overlook something

 

 

 
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which perhaps was down the way and I wouldn't

even know about it so I couldn't ask him about

it because I didn't have knowledge of it. So

the re-arrangement as well.

"Q And after he had left the church

did he do any writing or provide any new

biographical material other than what he had

already given you?

"A Not to my knowledge. There

were -- there were things that were not sorted

out, as you know and so, what was there, what

he had knowledge of, it is unknown to me.

"Q So essentially, as I understand

it, the form of his assistance would be that he

was available for you at any time to call him

and ask him questions about the materials?

"A Well, he continued to work very

closely with me on it.

"Q When Mr. Armstrong left the

church he did not have a job; is that right?

"A I don't know that.

"Q Well, let me ask it this way:

You helped him to get a job --

"A Yes.

"Q -- at some point --

"A Yes.

"Q Do you remember when that was,

approximately?

 

 

 
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"A Well, you could tell when his

employment began with Feldsott & Lee, the law

firm for whom he has been employed in the last

year and a half or whatever it is.

"Q To the best of your recollection,

that was around the spring of 1982?

"A Gee, I don't recall precisely,

but somewhere in that time period, yes.

"Q Now, as I understand it, after

Mr. Armstrong began working at the law firm --

whose name you mentioned, but nonetheless

evades me at the moment -- his relationship to

working on the biography diminished?

"A Oh, considerably, yes, almost

entirely. I mean -- well, he was very good

about this because he was never -- he was never

reimbursed for any of his services after he

left the church. But he was very good about it

because I was constantly ringing him up and

right up to the time that I left off writing

the book and asked him where certain things

were.

"Q So let me see if I understand it

correctly. Basically, after he went to work

for the law firm, you might call him on

occasion --

"A Yes.

"Q -- to ask him one question --

 

 

 
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"A That's right.

"Q -- or another?

"A Because we didn't see each other

that often. He was here and I was in Utah.

"Q Now, as some point did

Mr. Armstrong come to you and say that he would

like to obtain from you some of the materials

from the -- 'biography project' I'll call it

that -- that you had?

"A Yes. Perhaps we ought to, at

least I would like to preface that by saying

that during the period we are discussing -- and

this has been, I think, laid out in an

affidavit by Mr. Armstrong. So I won't repeat

all of it -- but in a general way he was --

considered his life in danger."

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I move to strike that as

nonresponsive. I moved it in the transcript.

THE COURT: Well, let's see. All right. I'll strike

the answer as nonresponsive.

"Q My only question here is at some

point did Mr. Armstrong come to you and ask you

if he could get some materials from you that

you had from the biography project?

"A In a general way, yes. I'm

not -- in other words, I don't at the moment

recall a specific instance, but obviously, he

did, yes.

 

 

 
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"Q Did that occur on more than one

occasion, or on one occasion as best you

recall? Was there a particular time? Without

necessarily being able to identify the date,

was there a particular request?

"A That was what I was trying to

explain, that it wasn't a series of specific

requests. There was a general understanding

that grew of what was happening to him which

laid the foundation for his having access to

the documents, which, in fact, I had received

from him anyway. It wasn't betraying any

confidentiality because I got the documents

from him. He knew everything that was in them.

"Q I understand. But he came to you

at some point and asked you if he could make

copies of some documents; is that right --

"A Yes.

"Q -- as opposed to his having

access?

"A Yes.

"Q And he told you that he needed

these documents for his legal case --

"A For his -- yes, for his defense.

 

 

 
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"Q Referring to that request when

he came to you and said that there were materials

he would like to copy for his case, do you recall

the nature of the materials that he requested?

"A No, I don't recall.

"Q Were they materials that generally

were to relate to the subject of L. Ron Hubbard's

connection to or control over the Church of

Scientology?

"A That was my understanding, but as

to whether that was the fact or not, I couldn't

answer that, no.

"Q It was your understanding from

Mr. Armstrong --

"A That was the purpose. You are

inquiring as to the purpose. That was represented

to me as I understood it, yes. Yes.

"Q And then Mr. Armstrong, in fact got

some documents and then reviewed them with you,

is that right, as to what he was taking?

"A No, he didn't review them with me

at all. He said -- there are several occasions.

We're speaking of this as -- again, you are

trying to put it into a single incident when in

fact what you are referring to was an occasion

in which Mr. Armstrong took some documents for his

use in his case and left me a list of the

documents he took so that I would know what he

 

 

 
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had. But I did not review those and I do not

know what they were.

"Q Do you recall how much material he

took on that occasion, approximately?

"A It's simply an estimate on my part,

but I would guess about 12 binders.

"Q Would that fill -- just to try to

get a physical estimate of it. If you can't

answer it after I ask it, just tell me. Would

that be, say, one carton full?

"A Oh, no. You must understand that

all the binders were not uniform in size. Some

were extremely thin; and some of those that he

would have been interested in for the preparation

of a legal case were in fact documents that would

be single documents in a binder and therefore

quite thin.

"Q So to your understanding it would

be less than a carton?

"A Oh, yes, I think so. On this --

remember we're speaking of a specific occasion,

now. There were other occasions.

"Q Now, on the other occasions -- and

again I recognize you can't remember all of

the details. On the other occasions, was it also

your understanding that these documents were

being taken for use in his case?

"A Yes.

 

 

 
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"Q And if you have any idea or as best

you can, can you give me an estimate of the

total bulk of documents that he would have taken

from you. Would they have all together filled

one carton, say?

"A I have no idea. quite honestly,

because I don't know. It's the same thing I've said

repeatedly about --

"Q Let me explain one thing. I am not

asking for what was actually taken because I

realize you weren't there when Mr. Armstrong took

them. But as far as you understood of what

was being taken, I'm trying to get some ideas

of the amount of materials that we're dealing

with.

"Q Frankly, I don't know. Frankly,

I really don't know. This was, again, over a

period of time, and it's very difficult to -- to --

I want to be accurate because there's no point

in my just estimating it, and I really don't

know how much material Mr. Armstrong concluded

he needed or wanted for his -- for his case.

"Q The occasion that you described a

moment ago where you said he left you a list of

what he took. Was that around the time of the

Clearwater City Commission hearings?

"A No, it was afterwards. I believe.

I wouldn't want to be held to it, but I am -- my

 

 

 
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impression is it was considerably some time

afterward, but I'm not sure.

"Q In terms of the types of materials

which you would give permission to take, were

you agreeing to taking what you considered to

be private or confidential papers of Mr. and

Mrs. Hubbard?

"A They were characterized to me as

mostly legal documents that were necessary

because I was constantly like a broken record

telling Mr. Armstrong that under no circumstances

was he to take, to disseminate or let out of my

ken biographical information. My -- I was

constantly reminding him we'd have to limit the

material to what he needed for legal purposes;

and what that was I had no way of knowing because

I wasn't his attorney and I didn't -- I wasn't

in charge of his case. I didn't know what kind

of case they were working out. I never consulted

with them. But there was always the caution that

I didn't want any biographical materials to be

disseminated.

"Q So if I understand the situation

correctly, and please tell me if I'm wrong,

Mr. Armstrong came to you and said he needed

materials for his case, and you made a distinction

between legal documents and documents that related

to your work on the biography or that would

 

 

 
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be more personal documents that would only

be usable for the biography project as such,

and then left the judgment as to what fell into

those categories up to Mr. Armstrong?

"A Yes, that is correct.

 

 

 
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"Q I am going to attempt -- and I'm

not sure I'm going to succeed -- in seeing if I

can go through some different types of

materials with you and see if these are

materials that you know Mr. Armstrong has taken

from you or were within the category of the

types of materials that he had taken from you.

Letters of Mrs. Hubbard to

Mr. Hubbard. Do you know whether Mr. Armstrong

took any such materials from you?

"A Of my certain knowledge, no. No.

"Q He did not take any such?

"A No, I did not say that. I said

of my certain personal knowledge, I don't know.

"Q When you had the discussion with

Mr. Armstrong about his taking materials from

you, was it your understanding that he would be

taking such letters?

"A Well, it was well understood, as

I believe I told you in our initial

conversation, that I had no intention of using

Mrs. Hubbard's letters at all and in fact did

not.

"Q I understand that. From the

conversation between you and Mr. Armstrong

about the materials he said that he would be

getting from what you had, was it your

understanding that that would include letters

 

 

 
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of Mrs. Hubbard?

"A No. Letters of Mrs. Hubbard were

never discussed by us at all. I don't recall

in any context discussing Mrs. Hubbard's

letters with Mr. Armstrong other than the

reference that they were there in the material.

"Q How about tax documents?

"A There was one folder -- again,

I'd like to be precise, but I'm not certain on

that point. I think -- there certainly was no

discussion, and I may have provided him one

called 'Tax Matters.' I'm not sure about that.

There was one, I recall, one folder that had

that label.

"Q Let me go back for a moment

before I continue on this tack.

"Do you recall approximately when

the request came to you from Mr. Armstrong for

documents? I mean was it right after he left

the church or somewhat later?

"A No, no. It was somewhat later.

It was specifically -- without pinpointing it

in time, I can give it to you relatively. It

was, say, when he felt the necessity he said of

retaining counsel, and he had in fact, did

retain counsel, and at that point he needed, he

said he needed documents to support his case.

"Q Now, was that counsel, do you

 

 

 
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know, Michael Flynn?

"A I -- to the best of my belief, it

was, but I'm not sure because Mr. Armstrong

didn't confide in me chiefly because at that

point -- I mean with respect to his

counsel --chiefly because I think he felt I was

opposed to anything that Mr. Flynn might do

with any information he would get. I felt he

was in close contact with other writers, some

of whom I felt some doubt about; and I didn't

want them to obtain any material that I had for

my biography because, obviously, they'd use it.

And so I didn't -- I rather frowned on the idea

at that time of Mr. Armstrong having a relation

with Mr. Flynn at all; and he felt this

reluctance on my part, and he didn't discuss

any of the -- any of the details of his

association with Mr. Flynn.

"Q Did you communicate to

Mr. Armstrong your hesitancy to have materials

that you felt were important to the biography

that you were writing provided to Mr. Flynn

because there was a danger that they in turn

could be passed on to other writers?

"A Repeatedly.

"Q Now, I'm going to ask you just

about what's really a completely unsystematic

list of materials just to try to get a sense of

 

 

 
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certain things and see if can jog your memory

or not. This relates to what to your under-

standing was provided to Mr. Armstrong by you.

"For example, do you have any

recollection of whether there were any

newspaper clippings from the late 1950s that

Mr. Armstrong took from you?

"A Gee, I don't recall any at all.

I'm not sure. Could you be more specific?

What kind of newspaper clippings?

"Q All I know about them is that

there were some newspaper clippings from the

years 1957 to 1961 that had comments by

Mr. Hubbard, apparently.

"A I recall only one, which had to

do with horticulture -- and the reason I recall

it is that I just found it, and I've just

returned it this morning -- and I found it in

my files. It was from an English newspaper,

and it had to do with Mr. Hubbard's work with

plants in England. Apart from that the only

other one I recall, I think, was some account

of the ship APOLLO, it's latter history.

"Q Did you have any understanding

that such newspaper clippings were to be

provided to Mr. Armstrong as part of the

materials that you were giving him?

"A Well, of course, I had no idea

 

 

 
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what was going to be provided Mr. Armstrong.

It just -- you know, it just came over the

transom, and I grabbed it.

"Q No, no, no. You are back in a

different time period than I am.

"A I see. Maybe I don't understand

you.

"Q I'm referring now to -- not the

period that Mr. Armstrong was gathering up

materials to give you but the period when he

came to you and said that he needed certain

materials. And what I'm trying to get an

understanding of in general in these questions

is the types of materials that you understood

that he would be taking from what you had, and

one example would be -- for instance, would it

have been your understanding that part of what

he was getting from you would have been some

newspaper clippings?

"A No, absolutely not. I wasn't

aware of any newspaper clippings at all.

"Q How about earlier incomplete

biographical sketches of Mr. Hubbard? Same

question.

"A I'm not quite sure I understand

the identity of the document you are talking

about. Is this -- the church has provided all

sorts of biographical sketches of Mr. Hubbard.

 

 

 

 
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"Q Apparently this is an early,

incomplete biographical sketch.

"A Well, there are so many I really

couldn't say because I have seen various ones

dating back to --

"Q How about letters between Mr. Hubbard

and A. E. Van Vogt? Would it be your

understanding that Mr. Armstrong would have

been getting such letters from you?

"A Specifically, I don't recall, but

I rather think, yes.

"Q How about letters between

Mr. Hubbard and L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. -- then

L. Ron Hubbard, Jr., now Ronald De Wolfe --

from the late '50s?

"A No, not to my recollection or

knowledge.

 

 

 
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"Q How about letters between Mr. Hubbard

and his son?

"A I don't recall specifically what,

but it's quite possible.

"Q That you would have given such

materials to Mr. Armstrong?

"A If -- if they appeared relevant

to his announced purpose, yes.

"Q How about premarital agreements

between Mr. Hubbard and Mary Sue Hubbard?

"A Well, I saw those but I don't

know whether Mr. Armstrong -- whether -- he

didn't ask specifically for them.

"Q Would it have been your

understanding that that was the type of

material you told him he could take?

"A Well, again, if it appeared that

that -- at the moment I don't see any relation,

but anyway, it didn't come up between us.

Q Personal letters between L. Ron

and Mary Sue Hubbard?

"A Mr. Armstrong didn't specifically

ask for any of those, didn't ask me for any of

those.

"Q If he had asked you for that,

would you have given it to him?

"A Well, that's an assumption which,

if it were not assumed it would depend on what

 

 

 
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the circumstances were. You see, I don't --

quite frankly, I haven't read all those

letters. And I don't know what's in them as I

wasn't going to use them and Mrs. Hubbard is

quite prolix in everything she wrote, going on

and on about minor details about the children

and so on. I didn't see any good reason if I

am not going to use them to read through all

that. There are page after page of these

letters.

"Q How about letters between

Mr. Hubbard and Volney Mathison?

"A I don't believe I've ever seen

one.

"Q You don't believe you have ever

seen any letters between Mr. Hubbard and

Mr. Volney Mathison?

"A Let me put it this way: I don't

recall having seen any letters between them.

It doesn't mean they they didn't exist or I

didn't have them right under my hands, but I

don't recall them.

"Q How about correspondence between

Mr. Hubbard and the British Home Office,

mid-'60s?

"A I don't recall specifically any

such letter.

"Q How about Mr. Hubbard's Naval

 

 

 
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records?

"A Yes.

"Q It was your understanding that

Mr. Armstrong was taking those?

"A Yes, yes -- well, not all of

them. They're quite extensive. Just selected

ones, I believe.

"Q According to my notes -- these

notes, for your reference, are notes taken by

going through the documents that are under

seal. These are several hundred pages in the

court of such Naval records.

"A Well, all that I saw or had, I

returned. So whatever was in that. But I

remember there were a number of binders and

also one binder called -- maybe two binders

called 'Board of Investigation' which actually

related to his Naval experience.

"Q Well, my question here is -- you

did, I know you had such binders. My question

here goes to your understanding of the nature

of the materials Mr. Armstrong was taking from

you.

"Was it your understanding that

part of what he needed for his legal case were

Mr. Hubbard's Naval records?

"A I'm not quite sure. But I

believe I would have -- I don't -- let me

 

 

 
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answer your question first of all specifically.

I don't recall any such discussion or

understanding, but had it arisen, I would have

weighed it in the limited context of my

knowledge of what his case was -- and I still

don't know what it is -- and if it had appeared

to me that it would have been helpful to him, I

would have been certainly agreeable to his

using it.

"Q Well, let me ask you a question:

You described your understanding of the type of

materials that Mr. Armstrong wanted which

basically had to do with the relationship

between Mr. Hubbard and the church.

"A Yes, especially with respect to

control and so on.

"Q You were not prepared to give

Mr. Armstrong, if I understand correctly,

personal material that had to do with

Mr. Hubbard's personal life which might, say,

contradict other statements that had been made

by the church? These were not the type of

materials that you were providing to

Mr. Armstrong; is that right?

"A If I felt if they were not? That

is a hypothetical question you are asking me

because specifically, it didn't arise. But you

are asking now for a --

 

 

 
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"Q Well, actually, I am not asking a

hypothetical question. I am asking for your

understanding. In other words, in terms of

what you thought you were giving and what your

understanding of what was being requested of

you was, it was not that you were being

requested for materials from Mr. Hubbard's

personal life that might contradict other

statements about his personal life that had

been made in another --

"A Actually not, but I would have

provided those as well as --

"Q No, no, no. That's not my

question. My question is not what you would

have done. My question is did you understand

that you had agreed or did you agree to

actually provide such materials?

"A I'm still somewhat in the dark as

to what the question is.

"Q Okay. I'll try again.

"Did you tell Mr. Armstrong that

it was all right for him to take whatever

materials he wanted related to facts from

Mr. Hubbard's personal life that contradicted

statements that the church had made about

Mr. Hubbard's life?

"A In a general way, yes; but

specifically, no. In other words, as I said

 

 

 
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before, whatever, not knowing what his case was

or what they were working up, I said anything

that was necessary for his case, he could have;

but I constantly added the proviso that it be

strictly limited to the legal case and to

protecting me and my material as a biographer.

And that was the only limitation that I set.

That's the only one."

THE COURT: We'll take a 15-minute break.

 

(Recess.)

 

MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, with your permission, may I

designate a switch hitter, Mr. Peterson?

THE COURT: Let the record show that counsel is

present.

Yes; you may continue on page 39, line 12.

"Q Can you estimate the total bulk

of material that you had if you just gathered

it altogether?

"A Well, whatever I had, I returned,

I think.

"Q I know.

"A There are some exceptions,

perhaps, that I'm still looking for.

"Q I understand. But can you

estimate for me how much material that was?

"A No better than you can. You've

 

 

 
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seen it.

"Q I didn't see it, actually.

"A Well, maybe that's it. There

were -- in terms of binders there were

300-some-odd binders and then all the folders

and the tapes and loose documents and -- it's

still coconuts are still falling, as you see.

"Q How about letters between

Mr. Hubbard and his first wife or his second

wife? Did you understand that Mr. Armstrong

needed those materials for his case?

"A Did you say his first wife or his

second wife, or from both?

"Q Both.

"A I had no understanding with

respect to that at all.

"Q How about letters between

Mr. Hubbard and his mother?

"A No. I was not aware of --

"Q How about Mr. Hubbard's diary

from the early 1940s, his journal?

"A Yes.

 

 

 
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"Q How about a copy of the book Excalibur?

"A Yes -- well, I think, again,

with certain limitations, that it was not

to be disseminated and so on.

"Q Now about a copy of Mr. Hubbard's --

not really a copy but materials related to

the Alaska expedition?

"A I don't recall those one way or the

other.

"Q How about materials related to

the death of Quentin Hubbard?

"A Those materials were provided to

me not by Mr. Armstrong but by Vaughn Young.

"Q My question is, did you understand

that those were --

"A I didn't have any discussion relative

to those with Mr. Armstrong. I could have

because we talked about everything.

"Q How about materials related to the

divorce proceedings between L. Ron Hubbard

and Sarah Northrup Hubbard?

"A Yes.

"Q You felt that that was connected

to the question of Mr. Hubbard's control over

the church?

"A Yes, partly, yes. They were

spelled out in there, I believe, some of the

statements made that would definitely go to that.

 

 

 
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"Q How about various materials that are

dispatches of Mrs. Hubbard?

"A I've got loads of them, but

not in this context; they're from previous

books. I don't offhand recall any dispatches

from Mrs. Hubbard other than her letters,

correspondence, memos to help me, and so on.

"Q You had several binders, I

believe, didn't you, that were specifically

on correspondence between Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard?

By which I mean Mary Sue Hubbard.

"A I have a great number of them; as

I said, hundreds of pages.

"Q Did you understand that Mr. Armstrong

was taking those from you?

"A I don't -- I'm not sure. At the

moment I don't recall our discussing it or my

saying, 'Take these.' I think it was --

you see, you are assuming that I looked at every

document he took.

"Q No, I'm just asking, I am not

making any --

"A That would assume that I examined

every document that he took. No, in this

instance I did not specifically say, 'Take

these documents.'

"Q You like Mr. Armstrong, don't you?

"A Very much.

 

 

 
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"Q You consider him a close personal friend?

"A Yes.

"Q And on many occasions you've gone

out of your way to help him out as best you

could?

"A Yes, I have.

"Q How about poems of Mr. Hubbard?

Did you understand that Mr. Armstrong would be

taking materials of that nature?

"A Did you say 'poems'?

"Q Yes.

"A No, I can't -- although much

of Mr. Hubbard's prose could fall in that category.

No, I don't specifically."

Going down to line 27:

"Q All right. We're continuing

the deposition," -- actually just going to the

next page --

"Let me spend a few more minutes on

the materials that you had. First, I may have

asked you and so tell me -- I sometimes lose

"The materials that were given to you

by Mr. Armstrong -- I am referring now to

when he was archivist -- were for your use

only; is that correct?

"A Well, it was never spelled out

what it was for, but my assumption was that

it was for the purpose of the biography.

 

 

 
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"Q Well, you would not have felt free,

would you, to disseminate/to third persons?

"A Well, I would not have done under

any circumstances.

"Q And would it be fair to say that

based on your experience --- you indicated that

you had written three previous books that

related to the subject of Scientology -- that

the materials that were provided to you

an arrangement that you had were based upon

a good working and amicable working relationship

between you and the church?

"A Yes, it was.

"Q Going to the time when after

Mr. Armstrong had left, you've described the

discussions or some of the discussions, at

least, that you had with him concerning his

obtaining certain information. Was it

your understanding that the sole purpose for

which he was getting these materials from

you was for use in his case as you have described?

"A Yes.

"Q It was not for use in working on

the biography that you were working on?

"A You mean a biography separate from

the one I was working on?

"Q No, no. When the materials that he

obtained from you, copies of which he obtained

 

 

 
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from you, he didn't get those as part of

assisting you on the biography; right?

This was a separate --

"A This is partly true. At times,

remember, he was still assisting me after he

left the church. And at times he did have

documents that were related to the biography that

he was helping me with. So --

"Q But I'm referring now to when he

requested of you to make copies --

"A No, no. it had no relation to

that, no.

"Q As he would take materials from you,

would you discuss with him what he was taking,

or did he have free access to the material?

"A He had free access to the material

because he was still assisting me.

"Q Where were the materials?

"A Well, at different times they

were different places. At first after he

left the church -- as you know I maintained a --

I had a flat in Costa Mesa and the materials were

all there.

"After the -- after the difficulties

began between him and the church, in other words,

when they started harassing him, and he felt

that he had to counsel, I'm not quite sure

whether -- yeah, I'm sure that I still had

 

 

 
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them in the flat in Costa Mesa, and he was

still assisting me, so he had access, but with

my permission to the materials.

"Q Most of the materials were there

at your flat in Costa Mesa?

"A They were up to the time that the

difficulty began where they started having --

approaching him in the parking lots and that

sort of thing. And then I felt that security

was involved and that they might -- as a matter

of fact, Jane Kember, the former head -- the

former Guardian had a key to my flat. So there

was a matter of security at that point that

entered into it."

Your Honor, I am going to move to strike the

part of that response that says "approaching him in parking

lots and that sort of thing" as being based on hearsay which

is not an objection that has to be made at the deposition.

THE COURT: Well, I assume he'd say he was told that

by Mr. Armstrong. It will be limited to that purpose,

keep the context of what we are talking about.

MR. LITT: (Reading):

"Q So, were the documents moved from

Costa Mesa?

"A Yes, they were moved from Costa Mesa.

"Q Where were they moved to?

"A Part of them were moved to Utah,

and part of them I moved too, to the home of a

 

 

 
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friend of mine, Bill Crago.

"Q Do you remember approximately when

this move occurred?

"A I can only -- in relation to -- I

can't give you an exact date, but it was --

it would be approximately at the time that the

litigation between the church and Mr. Armstrong

began.

 

 

 
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"Q Which was some months at least

after Mr. Armstrong --

"A Yes, yes.

"Q -- had left the church?

"A Yes.

"Q So for maybe six months or so --

A I would guess approximately May

of 1982.

"Q So for the six months from

December '81 until May of '82 they were in a

flat in Costa Mesa?

"A Not the entire time. Part of the

time Mr. Armstrong -- I paid rent on an office

for him to answer the telephone for a

corporation, Ralston-Pilot. And during that

time the documents were moved from time to time

because for security reasons.

"I was about to explain to you

that Jane Kember, who was formerly head of the

Guardian's office had a key to my flat and I

didn't want them, the Church of Scientology or

its representatives, to come in and simply take

all my documents."

MR. LITT: I'll move to strike that as nonresponsive,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Oh, I'll leave it in.

"Q Let me explain --

"A That's why they were moved.

 

 

 
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"Q That's fine. That's not my

question.

"A What is your question?

"Q My question is, simply, am I

correct in saying that the materials were in

your Costa Mesa flat from approximately

December '81 or earlier -- but I am referring

now to the period of time that Mr. Armstrong

had left -- from approximately December '81 to

about May of '82?

"A No. Part of them during that --

I'm not quite sure. But part of them during

that time could have been moved to --

"Q As of Mr. Crago or to Utah?

"A No. Or to the Ralston office.

"Q Okay. And approximately May of

'82, whenever --

"A I closed the flat and --

"Q And you at that time moved all of

the materials either to Mr. Crago's home or to

your home in Utah?

"A Right.

"Q What proportion of the materials,

as best you can say, would have been with

Mr. Crago?

"A Well, the material that was in

Mr. Crago were actually copies. The original

binders that I had, I took all of them with me.

 

 

 
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Now, the material that was with Mr. Crago was

never the original binders that I had received

from Mr. Armstrong. They were copies which

were made as an insurance against the

representatives of the Church of Scientology

stealing the original binders."

MR. LITT: Motion to strike that, Your Honor,

that last sentence.

THE COURT: I'll leave in "they were copies which were

made as an insurance." The rest of it will go out.

"Q I'm not asking you why. I'm just

trying to get what was where. I'm not asking

you for your reasons.

"A All right.

"Q Okay. Your reasons, I'm not

concerned with. I'm just trying to get at the

physical location.

"A I understand why you are not, but

okay.

"Q So you had a duplicate set of

materials?

"A Not all of them.

"Q But a substantial --

"A Yes.

"Q What Mr. Crago had was a

substantial duplication --

"A Yes. Certain documents that we

felt were --

 

 

 

 
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"Q Important?

"A Important -- to my biography, not

to anyone else. That I'd be left high and dry

if I didn't have these to support the

biography.

"Q So Mr. Crago's materials were

materials that you felt were particularly

important for the biography?

"A Right.

"Q Now, were there materials of

Mr. Armstrong's that were also stored at

Mr. Crago's?

"A I have no idea what Mr. Armstrong

stored at Mr. Crago's other than I know what

was there when I went to retrieve it. There

was material which I had not stored and I

assume this was some that Mr. Armstrong had

stored there.

"Q When did you retrieve the

materials that you had left with Mr. Crago?

"A I can date it only, again, by

reference that it was a short time before

Mr. Crago's deposition was taken. By 'short

time,' I mean a matter of the previous two

months, in that time period. I don't know for

certain. But if you know the date of his

deposition, you know it was within the previous

two months that I had taken the material.

 

 

 
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"Q So roughly around the end of

1982, roughly?

A No. You took his deposition

later than that. You took it much later. It

hasn't been too later.

"Q So you think it was sometime

early in '83, this year?

"A I could be wrong, but I believe;

that's my impression.

"Q So far as you were aware were the

materials that were left with Mr. Crago

materials that Mr. Armstrong needed for his

suit?

"A As I said, the materials left

with Mr. Crago were partly those that I had

stored there and partly those which

Mr. Armstrong had taken later. So --

"Q I'm referring to the ones you had

stored there.

"A Some of them were related to the

case, yes, but not all. But I think most of

them.

"Q You think most of them were?

"A I believe so.

"Q What proportion of the materials

that you had did you understand were relevant

to Mr. Armstrong's case?

"A Not knowing Mr. Armstrong's case,

 

 

 

 
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I'm unable to say. I don't know his case. I

don't know it to this day. So I can't tell you

what's related to it. I don't know what

Mr. Armstrong's claiming legally. I've never

seen any of the legal documents. So I can't

tell you --

"Q Well, he came to you, you

testified, and said, 'I need some things for

my case'?

"A Yes.

"Q And you, being sympathetic with

him, basically agreed to give him what he

needed. At the same time you've indicated that

you did not agree to give him everything --

"A No.

"Q -- is that correct? And you did

not agree to give him materials that were

important, in your judgment to the biography,

especially that which could be used by other

writers; correct?

"A Well, that's not true in exactly

the way you say it. I was willing for him to

have any material that he needed with the

proviso that it was not to be disseminated

beyond the legal arena. That was my only

restriction. I was protecting my own material.

"Q Now, my question you is, in terms

of -- I'm not asking for your knowledge of the

 

 

 
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law as such. I'm asking for your state of

mind. In terms of your understanding of the

materials that you had, what percentage did you

understand were potentially relevant to

Mr. Armstrong's case?

"A I had no idea. Again, I come

back to how could I know? I knew -- you see,

my concern, as I am trying to get it across, is

whatever was necessary in the preparation of a

legal case to me was one thing. But to

disseminated it beyond the legal arena to other

writers or even to the media or to anyone else

whatsoever, I was very much opposed to and

reiterated this particular restriction over and

over. It's the only one I ever imposed. And

it was a general one where the judgment had to

be left to someone who knew the case. I didn't

know it.

"Q But you've told us that you

believed that, in general, the types of

materials that he needed were those that

related to Mr. Hubbard's connection with the

church --

"A Yeah. But --

"Q -- or control over the church?

"A Yes, true.

"Q Give your description of the type

of material you understood that he was

 

 

 
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interested in, what percentage of that

material, in your opinion, would have fit into

that category?

"A That's a difficult question. You

are asking for conclusions that presuppose a

knowledge of their case and of what they were

seeking to prove.

"Q I'm not asking about the case.

No, no, no. I'm asking about --

"A Well, how could I form such a

judgment?

"Q Given the standard that you've

explained to me -- forget the case for a

moment. Given the standard that you've

explained of materials related to Mr. Hubbard's

connection to or control over, if you will, the

church --

"A Yeah.

"Q -- what percentage of the

materials that you had approximately would be

in that category?

"A Offhand, I couldn't estimate.

But it would be a considerable -- it would be a

major portion of the materials. If -- if I

were a clever attorney, it would be a

considerable portion.

"Q Now, sometime in approximately

May of 1982 you had a meeting with some -- I'll

 

 

 

 
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use a general phrase -- with some

Scientologists in connection with

re-negotiating your biography contract, which

re-negotiation was unsuccessful; is that right?

"A I would say so.

"Q Now, after that point, as I

understand it, you continued to work on a

biography of Mr. Hubbard?

"A I did.

"Q At that point it was your view,

if I understand it correctly, that you were no

longer working pursuant to the contract which

we've referred to earlier; is that correct?

"A That's correct.

"Q And essentially, from

approximately May of '82 on, you were writing a

biography, not to submit under the terms of

that contract, but to submit to a publisher for

potential sale?

"A That's correct.

"Q So that for approximately the

last year, your work on the biography has not

been to ultimately publish a biography to be

published by --

"A Not an -- let's say not an

approved biography.

"Q Not the one that was contemplated

in the contract?

 

 

 

 
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"A Not the one envisioned.

"Q And not to be published by the

publisher that you had signed that agreement

with?

"A No."

MR. LITT: Can we have that marked as

plaintiff's next in order, Your Honor?

THE COURT: 22. All right.

This is what was exhibit 2 at the deposition,

counsel?

MR. LITT: Yes, Your Honor.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, this brings up a very

important matter. And that is that this is not the entire

settlement agreement. And Mr. Litt has refused to give us

the entire settlement agreement. He is appending merely a

portion of it.

MR. LITT: It is not a portion of it.

THE COURT: I don't know why we have to worry about it

at this moment. The only reason for it is that this is to

preserve and understand what was done at the deposition.

Now, at some point in time if you want to make a motion with

reference to something else, we'll consider it in due

course. But at this point we are trying to recreate the

deposition that was conducted here. And this is, I assume,

what was presented at that time.

 

 

 
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MR. FLYNN: I'd just like to have the entire

settlement agreement made available to me so I could review

it.

THE COURT: Well, let's do this first. It is going

to take some time.

MR. LITT: (Reading:)

"Q Mr. Armstrong, I am handing you

Exhibit 2 --

"A You are handing it to me.

"Q Yes, I'm sorry, Mr. Garrison.

The names fly around a bit.

"Can you take a look at that

and tell me if you recognize it?

"A That's my initials that appear

at the bottom of each page. I assume that's

the one that I have read and signed.

"Q Well, let's look at that more

closely.

"A Any particular paragraph?

"Q Well, what I would like for

starters is for you to look at it and tell

me if this is an agreement entered into

between you on behalf of yourself and on

behalf of Ralston-Pilot, on the one hand,

and New Era Publications, on the other hand,

which is a public statement of a settlement

agreement that has been reached with respect

to the October 1980 contract and with respect

 

 

 
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to any potential biography to be written

by you of L. Ron Hubbard?

"A I fail to see where it's

related to the case of Gerry Armstrong

and the Church of Scientology."

I can read the rest of that page in, but it is

a colloquy about why this is relevant.

THE COURT: Do you want it, Mr. Flynn?

MR. FLYN: No, it is not necessary, Your Honor.

MR. LITT: Beginning at the top of page 55:

"Q So we still need you to

identify that document.

"A I do identify it as one that

I've signed on the proper date.

"Q You entered into this

agreement having been represented by

counsel; is that correct?

"A Correct.

"Q And you entered into the

agreement with New Era Publications as a

subsequent name for the publisher that you

had originally entered into the October 30,

1980 agreement with; is that correct?

"A No, that is not correct. I

entered into it as an agreement with New

Era Publications. I don't know whether

it's a successor or not a successor. I

never had any indication that it was.

 

 

 
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"Q Well, if you read line 11 of

the agreement, you will see that it says

this is a --

"A Yeah, I see what it says,

but I don't know whether that's true or not.

"Q But you signed the document

"A I signed it as it's written.

But as to whether I knew Era is a legiti-

mate successor to Publishers DK, I'm not

competent --

"Q I'm not asking you to express

an opinion on that.

"A No.

"Q That was your understanding --

"A Yes. That's right.

"Q -- on the basis of which you

negotiated the agreement?

"A Yes. Not an acknowledgement

that it was in fact a successor.

"Q And as part of this agreement,

you have agreed that you will not publish

a biography of L. Ron Hubbard, and you are

not working on any biography of L. Ron Hubbard

either under the October 1980 contract or on

any other basis?

"A Correct. Correct.

"Q And you are in fact not

currently working on any such biography?

 

 

 
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"A I am not.

"Q And also as part of the

agreement, you delivered to the Church

of Scientology International all of the

documents and materials which had been

provided to you by Mr. Armstrong in

connection with your preparation of that

biography?

"A With the exception as

spelled out in the original agreement

there, that there may be some still out-

standing that I have to locate.

"Q With respect to those that are

outstanding --

"A Let's define it more care-

fully: That there are none that I

currently know specifically of, and if

they should turn up, they will be promptly

returned, and they will not be passed on

to a third party."

Your Honor, why don't I give this to

Mr. Peterson and he can give it to the Court so you will know

what is being referred to.

THE COURT: A11 right. Exhibit 22.

MR. LITT: (Reading:)

"Q And you currently make no

claim to possess any of these --

"A None whatsoever.

 

 

 
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"Q -- materials?

"A None whatsoever.

"Q Was Mr. Armstrong ever your

agent with respect to possession of these

materials?

"A I don't know what you -- if

you would define 'agent,' I could tell you.

Is it in a legal sense or --

"Q Well, let's take it in a lay

sense. When I spoke with you on this

subject once before, I believe you told me

that as far as you were concerned

Mr. Armstrong was not then and has not been

your agent.

"A Not in the sense that I under-

stand the word 'agent,' no. In other words,

he was not acting legally on my behalf.

"Q With respect to the materials

that had been provided you in connection

with the preparation of the biography, was

it your understanding that any of these

materials were ever personal property of

Mr. Armstrong?

"A The question never arose, and

I never gave it any consideration one way

or another.

"Q Was Mr. Armstrong acting in

providing you with the materials in his

 

 

 
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capacity as the archivist for the Church --

"A No.

"Q -- in providing you the

materials?

"A No. He was providing me --

he was acting directly as the representa-

tive of L. Ron Hubbard it was my under-

standing.

"Q You told me that he was the

archivist.

"A That's right, but he had --

you must realize the archives belonged to

L. Ron Hubbard not to the Church. The

Church never had possession of the

archives, in my opinion, if you are

asking for my opinion.

"Q Well, I'm not asking for your

opinion.

"A Well, it seemed to me that you

were.

"Q No, no, no. He had the title

of archivist; right?

"A Yes, for L. Ron Hubbard.

"Q No. Mr. Garrison, when I went

through with you before, you told me you

didn't know what he was the archivist of;

do you remember that this morning?

"A Well, no. But it's my understanding --

 

 

 

 
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I said I didn't know --

"Q No. My question -- let's just

take the title 'Archivist' --

"A Yes.

"Q -- okay? In his having

access to these materials --

"A Yes.

"Q -- he provided them to you

in his capacity as archivist; is that right?

"A Yes.

"Q Was there anything that indi-

cated that he personally had the independent

right of possession of these apart from his

position as archivist?

"A No."

MR. LITT: There is an objection.

THE COURT: Well, I will overrule the objection.

"A Yes. Well, again, it is a

conclusion. You said is there anything

indicating that, and my answer is -- you

see, we're going round and round, but we

could resolve it very simply by my telling

you that from the very outset, including

my first meeting Mr. Armstrong in East

Grinstead in Mr. Gaiman's office, he was

represented to me as a person who was

putting together all the private papers

and materials of L. Ron Hubbard for possibly

 

 

 
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not only the biography but a museum.

"Q A church museum?

"A I don't know whether a church

museum or not. That's your interpretation.

"Q A Scientology Museum?

"A No; an L. Ron Hubbard Museum,

because it had nothing to do with the

church per se. The church would enter

into it --

"Q Who is Mr. Gaiman?

"A David Gaiman? He was the

assistant and later Acting Guardian

Worldwide.

"Q A church --

"A The one --

"Q A church position?

"A Yes, it's a church position,

but representing Mr. Hubbard as well, I

assume. In other words, the only attorney

that I ever dealt with in this case in the

contract or legally --

"Q No, no. You don't even have

a question pending. I'm going to move to

strike that.

"A All right."

THE COURT: It will be stricken.

 

 

 
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MR. LITT: Your Honor, Mr. Garrison keeps talking.

I'm going to go down to line 13.

MR. FLYNN: Fine, Your Honor.

MR. LITT: (Reading):

"Q Let me go back to one other

question about the documents. Now, you

indicated that you were not certain of the amount

of documents --

"A No.

"Q -- which were taken by Mr. Armstrong.

You also indicated that you thought you had

approximately five feet of documents total.

"A I would guess, yes.

"Q Let me give you one or two figures.

Was it your understanding that Mr. Armstrong,

in putting together the materials that he was

putting together, that he was getting from you,

would have more than a thousand pages of documents

that he obtained from you?

"A There was no understanding with regard

to amounts.

"Q Two thousand pages?

"A No. There was no -- there was

never any discussion of the number of pages

at all.

"Q If I told you that the materials

that Mr. Armstrong had in his possession that

were turned over to the court --

 

 

 
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"A The ones under seal, you mean?

"Q -- the ones under seal were of the

the same bulk that you've described, that is,

approximately five feet or more --

"A Uh-huh.

"Q -- would that indicate to you that

that was a greater amount of material than you

had understood he was taking from you?

"A Not necessarily. Because, again, I

haven't the foggiest notion of what is under seal

in the court.

"Q I understand that. I'm just asking --

"A I'm not sure they're the same

documents. But if you are just talking about

putting a yardstick on it and measuring, well,

possibly. I don't know the amount. I don't know

the identity.

"Q I'm not asking the amount or the

identity.

"A What is the question, then?

"Q All right. We'll try it again.

"Let us presume for purposes of this

question, okay, that there are five feet or

more of documents that Mr. Armstrong took from

you; okay? You don't have to comment on whether

that's accurate. Just assume that --

"A I have not said that.

"Q I understand that.

 

 

 
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"A I have not said that.

"Q I quite understand. Assuming

that is true, would that be a greater amount

than you had understood that he wanted or needed

from you?

"A I would say.

"Q If I were to tell you that and, again,

assuming that there are eight to ten thousand

pages of documents obtained from you from your

materials from you, for purposes of this

question --

"A Well --

"Q -- by Mr. Armstrong, assuming that

that's accurate --

"A I wonder how you know that; that's

the only thing.

"Q Mr. Armstrong said it in his

deposition.

"A Okay.

"Q Would that be a greater amount

of material that you had understood he had taken

from you?

"A Yes."

THE COURT: The next page is Ms. Dragojevic.

MR. FLYNN: That's me, Your Honor. I am not sure

I can adopt her voice, but I'll do the best I can.

"BY MS. DRAGOJEVIC:

"Q Mr. Garrison, when did you first

 

 

 

 
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have contact with the Church of Scientology?

"A My first contact with the Church

of Scientology was when -- and this is a guess --

probably in 1971. At any event, it was when --

shortly after the publication of a book of mine

called "Spy Government."

"Q Were you approached by the Church

of Scientology, or did you approach them?

"A I was approached by the Church of

Scientology as a result of this particular

book; because in the book, which is concerned

with the illegal activities of government

agencies with respect to individuals and

organizations, I mentioned in two or three, maybe

four pages the incident of the FDA raid on

the Church of Scientology in Washington, DC

and this was what brought representatives of

the Church of Scientology to me to tell me that

they had a bigger story than the raid and they

would like to submit it for my examination.

"Q Was/it their intention that you write

another book or something --

"A Yes. I found eventually it was

their intention; that they had material which had

been ignored by the establishment media and they

wanted me to see all the materials and see

if -- examine them and see if what they said

about the illegal incursions into the church were

 

 

 

 
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in fact true.

"Q Did some type of publication result

from this first meeting?

"A Yes, it did. It was a book called

The Hidden Story of Scientology.

"Q And that is the first book that

you mentioned when you listed those books that

you had written about Scientology?

"A Yes, there was.

"Q With respect to these three books

that you wrote regarding Scientology did you also

enter into contracts for their publication?

"A Enter into contracts with whom?

"Q With the Church of Scientology.

"A Yes. But not for the publication,

but for the writing. I was to provide my own

publisher. Simply that they would provide me

with materials for the writing of the books.

"There was no agreement -- I might

add there was no agreement in this contract

to write the books for any monetary remuneration

from the church as such; simply just that they

were going to support it with presumably large

membership of readers.

"Q Do you remember who you contracted

with for The Hidden Story of Scientology, what

entity of the Scientology Organization?

"A I believe -- and don't tell me

 

 

 
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just because it's off the top of my head --

and it was an organization called -- and this

might have been the second one, not the first --

Religious Research, Religious Research something.

Perhaps you know the name."

MR. LITT: Then there was a comment by Mr. Long:

"No."

"THE WITNESS: A Liberian corporation, I

believe.

"BY MS. DRAGOJEVIC:

"Q How about the book entitled

The Secret World of Interpol?

"A Similarly.

"Q You contracted with the Religious

Research Organization?

"A I think so.

"Q And Playing Dirty?

"A Playing Dirty, quite frankly, I

don't recall. But it's quite likely it was the

same. In other words, they were all church

entities, at least that was my understanding.

"Q Did you ever deal with Mr. Hubbard

with respect to any of these three publications?

"A Not contractually. After the

publication of -- after the publication of

Hidden Story which was first published in

England by Arlington Books and later in this

country by Lyle Stuart or Citadel Press,

 

 

 
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Mr. Hubbard was very pleased with the book

itself. And he sat down and wrote me a letter

and included a check for a thousand dollars

which he said was a bonus because of the work

I had done.

"Q But if I understand you correctly,

you were never paid pursuant to any contract for

any of these three books; is that correct?

"A Well yes. I was paid, but in a --

as an advance on a purchase of books. So they --

in other words, the church organization was

not out of pocket; on the contrary, they

bought books and made a profit through their

own book shops. For the money advanced, they

received a certain number of books which they

in turn sold. Last time I heard, they were

selling for some enormous prices in their

book shops.

"Q Have you ever been a member of the

Church of Scientology?

"A I never have.

"Q Were you provided with documentation

for the writings of any of these three books

that we have just discussed?

"A I was provided with extensive

documentation for all three. If you want to

put it in the same terms of how high were they,

in my flat in London I would say there were twice

 

 

 
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as many for Hidden Story as there were for

the biography because there I actually stacked

them up against the wall. And they were higher

than my head.

"Q What was the nature of the

documentation that was provided for the writing

of Hidden Story?

"A It included everything, starting with

1950 with the publication of Dianetics. And

almost immediately after Dianetics was published,

there were letters from the AMA that went

out within a matter of weeks after publication;

letters that went out to all the doctors who

were members of AMA attacking Hubbard and starting a

campaign against Dianetics. And then it

extended right up until the time of the

publication including all the legal documents,

the court hearings, the FDA."

THE COURT: You may skip that next comment.

"Q Were you also provided documents

for the writing of Secret World?

"A As I said, in each instance I was

provided extensive and copious documents.

"Q What type of documents were you

provided for the writing of The Secret World

of Interpol?

"A Legal documents, correspondence,

transcripts of court hearings in Germany and

 

 

 
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elsewhere around the world and so on.

"Q What kind of correspondence?

"A There were correspondence, some of it,

the correspondence, was between client and

attorney with the attorneys in Germany and so on.

"Q What type of documentation were you

provided for Playing Dirty?

"A At this time this was a case -- I

was provided all the material that was obtained

by discovery relating to the FBI raid; I was

provided entire file of transcripts of all the

court hearings before Judge Ritchie. And

amusing, however, they were a little more

interesting. I'll say that everything heard

before Judge Ritchie had a certain carnival air

that at least provided some amusement not

ordinarily found in court transcripts. At one

point Judge Ritchie got off the bench, laid

down full length in his judicial robes on the

floor, which I think is an unusual circumstance.

 

 

 
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"Q Other than the communication

from Mr. Hubbard in which he indicated

that he was pleased with the publication

and gave you a check for a thousand

dollars, have you had any other communi-

cation with Mr. Hubbard over the years?

"A I've had communications, many

of them represented to be from Mr. Hubbard

and signed by Mr. Hubbard, but which I

believe came from SO-1.

"Q Why do you believe they came --"

THE COURT: Are you making a motion to strike?

MR. LITT: I will let that stand.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q Why do you believe they came --

"A You can say at least that I

have received communications ostensibly

from Mr. Hubbard.

"Q Why do you believe they are

from SO-1?"

MR. LITT: Your Honor, at this point there is a

whole colloquy here about his belief on SO-1. I mean, I

let some of the beginnings come in, but I don't think it is

relevant, and it is all conclusions, basically, through

page 69.

MR. FLYNN: I think it goes to his state of mind.

MR. LITT: What does his state of mind have to do

with anything?

 

 

 

 
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MR. FLYNN: He believes he was dealing with

Mr. Hubbard as he says on lines 5 to 7 on page 69.

THE COURT: Well, I am not really sure of the signi-

ficance of this in the total picture. But it deals with --

the question was asked whether he had other communications

with Mr. Hubbard, and he said he had many of them repre-

sented to be from Mr. Hubbard and signed by Mr. Hubbard,

and which I believe came from SO-1. And then, I guess, he

goes on to explain, try to explain how he came to that

conclusion.

I think I will let it in. I am not sure that

it has any great evidentiary value, but it may shed some

light upon his later answers or testimony he may give in

this case.

MR. FLYNN: So the next question is:

"Q Why do you believe they were

from SO-1?

"A The information that was

developed during the course of the writing

of the biography indicated to me that

Mr. Hubbard was not answering corres-

pondence either directed to him or that

was presumably originating with him. And

having had -- having interviewed some of

the people who were in charge, it was

indicated to me, also, that they were even

intervening in Mary Sue Hubbard's letters

to her own husband and extracting portions

 

 

 
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before they passed on the correspondence."

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I am going to move to strike

at least that portion. That is clearly hearsay, and I don't

think it goes to any state of mind.

THE COURT: Well, it is his statement with reference

to his communications with Mr. Hubbard.

MR. LITT: No, no.

THE COURT: He finally comes to a conclusion that

SO-1 has a full discretion as to correspondence with

Mr. Hubbard.

MR. LITT: Yes, and he says somebody else, not

Mr. Hubbard or not any SO-1 communication, somebody told him

something about the fact that SO-1 was doing this, that and

the other thing.

THE COURT: On second thought, I will agree with you.

It is really getting out into left field. Pretty much

hearsay, so we will strike --

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I'd just be concerned with

the last sentence between lines 5 and 7 on 69. Whether the

other portion goes out on Mary Sue Hubbard, I don't'care.

She's already testified she didn't think her correspondence

was getting to him. But his understanding as to whether or

not SO-1 -- "So, SO-1, it appeared to me, had the full

discretion as to correspondence with L. Ron Hubbard."

I think that goes to the state of mind as to

who he believed he was dealing with. He believed he was

dealing with Hubbard.

THE COURT: All right. I will strike the portion

 

 

 
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that deals they were intervening in Mary Sue Hubbard's

letters to her husband and extracting portions. That is on

lines 2 through 5 on page 69.

So we will go on.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q What does SO-1 stand for?

"A Standing Order 1, I believe.

And it was an organization that was set

up, it's my understanding, to answer --

after all, L. Ron Hubbard couldn't possibly

answer all the volume of correspondence

that came in to him; it's humanly impossible.

And they had certain -- his own family had

certain stickers on letters so that they

could reach him through SO-1 or through

these channels, that they wouldn't be

diverted into -- they would reach him

personally.

"Q Could you tell . . ." --

THE COURT: Skip down to line 24.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q With respect to the materials

which you've indicated that led you to

believe that Mr. Hubbard was not writing

his own correspondence --

"A I was told that by -- I was

told that by responsible representatives of

the Church."

 

 

 
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MR. FLYNN: I don't care whether that goes out.

MR. LITT: It doesn't matter. I'd just as soon leave

it in.

THE COURT: Okay.

Then the witness begins on line 2.

"A No. She said why was that my

understanding."

MR. LITT: He is just answering my objection, Your

Honor.

MR. FLYNN: Let's say we go down to line 15, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Wait a second. He's got some

problem with this colloquy here.

MR. LITT: The only thing, I think, that is relevant

before line 15 is Mr. Garrison does state that he is not

planning to be available for trial.

THE COURT: What about this business of Dede? What

does that have to do with it?

MR. LITT: Of Dede?

THE COURT: Have I got the right page?

MR. PETERSON: It is the second half of the page.

MR. LITT: We object to that as just further hearsay,

just going on and on, and also it is just not relevant at

this point.

THE COURT: Well, let's go on to line 11, page 71.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q Have you ever personally met

Mr. Hubbard?

 

 

 
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"A Only very briefly many, many

years ago when Dianetics first came out.

And I did a newspaper series on Dianetics

here in Los Angeles, which again is a

matter of record.

"Q Can you recall what year that

was?

"A 1950 when Dianetics came out.

"Q Was that the first and last

time you have ever seen the man?

"A Yes.

"Q Were there any other publi-

cations after PLAYING DIRTY other than your

writing of the biography?

"A Relating to Scientology?

"Q Yes.

"A No.

"Q And when was PLAYING DIRTY

published?

"A I believe 1980.

"Q Have you ever written any other

biographical sketches of Mr. Hubbard?

"A Never.

"Q Have you ever written --

"A Apart -- wait a minute. I

would correct that. I was provided with

the usual Church biography, the official

biography which I included briefly in

 

 

 
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another book of mine called the ENCYCLOPEDIA

OF PROPHESY, but this is repeating all the

falsehoods that they have propounded over

the years. It wasn't my original

material."

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I moved to strike that at that

time and still move to strike it.

THE COURT: All right. Everything after

"ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PROPHESY" in that one sentence will be

stricken. The last sentence can remain.

"THE WITNESS: Anyway, the

ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PROPHESY.

"Q When you say that you were

provided with a Church biography, I

assume that you put an LRH biography into

the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PROPHESY; is that

correct?

"A Yes.

"Q Was there something that you

wrote yourself or --

"A Something I wrote myself

based on material provided to me by Sue

Anderson, who was his official PR Personal

Public Relations representative at the

time. I had no reason to believe that it

wasn't completely true."

MR. LITT: I am going to move to strike that last

sentence.

 

 

 
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THE COURT: I will deny the motion.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q When were you first contacted

with respect to the biography of

Mr. Hubbard?

"A It was approximately two

years previous to the signing of the

contract.

"Q Who contacted you?

"A David Gaiman -- sorry, first

Sue Anderson.

"Q And who did she represent?

"A She was Mr. Hubbard's personal --

they call it Pers Pro, Personal Public

Relations representative.

"Q What did Miss or Mrs. Anderson

request of you at that time?

"A She sent me some correspondence

saying that she had submitted this idea to

Mr. Hubbard, and he said, 'Wonderful, good

news. Omar is a very good writer.' So it

was passed on to Mr. Hubbard -- I am sorry,

to Mr. Gaiman to deal with me as he had

been the intermediary for the previous

books.

"And I was very reluctant to

do it, and I rejected the idea on the basis

that they wanted what in the trade we call

 

 

 
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a 'puff,' that is, a laudatory sort of

eulogy, and I was unwilling to do that.

I felt that a biography -- well, I'm an

honest reporter, and I felt that they would

take out, they would eviscerate my copy

because they would take out everything

that they regarded as 'entheta' or

unfavorable to him.

 

 

 
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MR. LITT: Your Honor, I move to strike after

Mr. Garrison's first sentence in that response as

nonresponsive.

THE COURT: I'll deny the motion.

"Q Mr. Garrison, what was it that

made you believe that the representatives of

the church wanted a -- what you called a 'puff'

on L. Ron Hubbard?

"A Because I had by this time read

all their official biographies and had begun to

learn from other sources that they were not

accurate and that they were laudatory. And the

very term 'puff' comes from Hollywood. It

means to blow up or exaggerate. They used to

do it for stars, change their ages or whatever

in order to give them a public image. And I'm

not an image maker.

"Q Who did you have these

discussions with?

"A I had them with David Gaiman,

Jane Kember; I had them with every

Scientologist virtually that I came into

contact with."

MR. LITT: I'll reply verbally where I want to

object, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I guess I'll rule. I'll deny the motion.

"Q What did they say to you in

substance regarding what they --

 

 

 
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"A Well, they --

"Q Let me finish -- regarding what

type of biography you were to write?

"A It doesn't call for hearsay

because I have --"

THE COURT: Go down to line 26.

"THE WITNESS: Let me say this. This is

all spelled out in correspondence. I have

letters, long letters answering my objections,

saying in substance 'we don't expect you to

write a puff.' Indeed, we want you to write an

honest biography. This was back and forth.

And ultimately on that basis I agreed that I

would do it and it would be a straight-forward

honest account.

"Q That was your understanding of --

"A That was my understanding. And

that is as a matter of fact their understanding

so far as their correspondence to me is

concerned.

"Q Do you still have possession of

that correspondence?

"A I do have, yes.

"Q Specifically, who was that

correspondence from?

"A The -- at various times the long

eventual, shall we say, summary letter from

Sheila Gaiman, who was acting for her husband

 

 

 
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David, acting officially. David had gone to

France to sort out this, a certain legal case

they had there. And she was officially acting

in his capacity.

"Q Do you recall the approximate

date of that letter?

"A I don't know. But in looking for

materials to return, I saw it as late as last

week.

"Q Did you keep that in a specific

file?

"A Yes.

"Q Does the file have a name?

"A It would be -- it was in the

file. I had moved it from the correspondence

file into a file called the 'biography-legal.'

This is because I thought I might need it with

respect to the instant case.

"Q Can you recall how long these

initial back-and-forth negotiations --

"A Two years.

"Q -- took?

"A Sorry.

"Q This correspondence with

Miss Anderson and the Gaimans and various other

Scientologists took approximately two years?

"A Uh-huh.

"Q Is that 'yes'?

 

 

 

 
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"A Yes.

"Q After this two-year period was it

then that you entered into the October 1980

contract?

"A Yes. As I said, upon their

agreement that I could, shall I say, tell the

truth.

"Q Did you go to England for the

purpose of entering into the contract?

"A No. I spent a lot of time in

England. We live there off and on.

"Q Was there a specific reason that

you did go to England in October of 1980?

A I didn't go to England in October

1980. In October 1980 the contract was signed

here in Los Angeles.

"Q I'm sorry. Who was present when

the contract was signed?

"A Larry Brennan. Isn't his name

'Brennan'? Laurel Sullivan. I don't know

whether Wertheimer -- I think -- at least he

drew it up, so I assume.

"Q Is that --

"A Alan Wertheimer.

"Q Anyone else present?

"A There could have been, but I

don't recall. I don't recall.

"Q I believe that you testified

 

 

 
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earlier that you first met Mr. Armstrong in

East Grinstead sometime before this contract

was signed?

"A Yes. A couple of months, at

least, before.

"Q What was the purpose of your

being in East Grinstead at the time?

"A We were discussing the

possibility of my doing the book at that time

and finalizing any -- it was pretty well

decided I would do it at that time.

"Q Was that just one meeting or a

series of meetings?

"A One formal meeting in David

Gaiman's office. And then Gerry made -- he

addressed a meeting. And I was present there.

So we talked informally.

"Q Had you had any other meetings

regarding your writing a book other than what

you've already testified to which would have

been the correspondence that went on for the

two-year period preceding the contract and this

one formal meeting that took place in

Mr. Gaiman's office?

"A And the answer is 'yes.'

"Q What were those meetings?

"A At the time that I was doing

Playing Dirty, I had occasion to meet with

 

 

 
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Mr. Gaiman several times respecting material

for the book. And he showed me a letter from

Sue Anderson accusing him of dragging his feet

about getting me to do the biography. So that

sparked a discussion as to whether I would do

it.

"Q Who was present at this first

formal meeting with Mr. Gaiman in his office?

"A As nearly as I recall, I think

Gerry Armstrong was there. Of course,

Mr. Gaiman, Mr. Gaiman's secretary was -- whose

name escapes me at the moment, a very

attractive girl, too. But also I believe that

Herbie -- what's his name? Herbie --

"Q Parkhouse?

"A Herbie Parkhouse for part of the

meeting was present. David called Herbie up

with respect to, I think, some sort of

financial arrangement. Herbie was the man who

was known as the Flag Banking Office or

whatever, Worldwide.

 

 

 
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"Q How long did this meeting last?

"A Oh, a couple of hours, and we

repaired for lunch, and I think altogether

about three hours."

MR. LITT: Your Honor, if I may, we object to the

next approximately three pages which are essentially dis-

cussions at negotiation meetings, which are -- I am not sure

what purpose they are introduced for, but I don't think they

are relevant if it is for interpreting the contract. I don't

really think it does anything to do that, and for any other

purpose it is not really relevant.

Mr. Garrison wanders on a bit here and makes

all kinds of statements about his feelings, about that he

had bad feelings about this and that.

MR. FLYNN: I think, Your Honor, I don't necessarily

request that some of the material on page 79 should go into

evidence.

However, on page 80, I believe his feelings

with regard to total disclosure regarding Mr. Hubbard's life

was a very important consideration, and as Your Honor will

see, a prerequisite of Mr. Garrison was that he be given

total access to all of L. Ron Hubbard's personal files; and

it was for this reason that he did request that, which goes

to the issue of what he was entitled to have, and therefore

what Mr. Armstrong was entitled to have.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, the issue in this case is what

was done with it after it was given to Mr. Garrison.

MR. FLYNN: The issue is whether Mr. Garrison is a

 

 

 
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bailee and could properly make Mr. Armstrong a bailee.

MR. LITT: Well, I won't get into that.

THE COURT: Well, I will sustain the objection.

Basically all he is saying is he had some

thoughts about what should be done but they weren't

expressed. So it seems to me it is substantially just his

own mental thoughts that he was going through. This isn't

the meeting in England. This is some meeting that he

had with Mr. Gayman and somebody else on an earlier occasion.

I think the --

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, what that refers to, there

earlier had been an individual engaged to write the

biography who discovered the same falsehoods, and he was

taken off the project.

THE COURT: Well, he just says that is how he felt.

He might get the same treatment.

"Q Did you discuss that with . . .

the individuals . . .?

"A . . . I don't remember, but

it had been the subject of extensive

discussion prior to that."

MR. FLYNN: "But it had been the subject of extensive

discussion prior to that."

THE COURT: He's already testified. It is cumulative.

I will sustain the objection.

We will take a recess and reconvene, I guess,

on page 81, line 24.

(At 11:58 a.m., a recess was taken

until 1:30 p.m. of the same day.)

 

 

 
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LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, MAY 9, 1984; 1:30 P.M.

---o0o---

THE COURT: All right. We are back in session.

Counsel are present.

You may continue where you left off.

MR. FLYNN: Page 81, line 24, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q At that meeting with Mr. Gaiman

and the other individuals, was it ever

represented to you that Mr. Armstrong

would be your research assistant for the

biography?

"A It was.

"Q Who represented this to you?

"A Mr. Gaiman.

"Q Anyone else?

"A Well, he was in charge.

"Q Was it also discussed at this

meeting what materials you would be provided

for the writing of the biography?

"A Not beyond a general saying

it -- what was needful, because no one

knew what there was, I guess.

"Q Prior to your entering into

the agreement which is attached as Exhibit 1,

was there ever any discussion as to what

 

 

 

 
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materials you would be provided for the

writing of the biography?

"A There was not.

"Q Was it your understanding

that at that first formal meeting in

Mr. Gaiman's office that Mr. Armstrong

in some manner represented the interests

of Mr. Hubbard?

"A Yes, I thought he did.

"Q What led you to believe

that he represented the interests of

Mr. Hubbard?

"A For the simple reason that

he had -- I was told that he had chargbe

or would have charge -- it was unclear in

my mind at the time -- would have charge

of documents pertaining to Mr. Hubbard's

life, documents which would only be

properly in the possession of the subject

himself.

"Q Was it at that time that you

were told that Mr. Armstrong's title was

'Archivist'?

"A Yes.

 

 

 
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"What was the result of the meeting

in Mr. Gaiman's office?

"A The -- well, to put it succinctly,

it was tentatively agreed that if we came to a

meeting of minds with regard to and the terms

of a contract, that I would then proceed with

a biography.

"Q What terms was it that there

was no meeting of the minds on?

"A I wanted two reassurances, first of

all, in writing, with respect to a freedom

of presenting my material and, secondly,

to have -- to restrict the vetting of the

contract to those persons that I would name as

acceptable to me.

"Q Do you mean vetting of the contract

or vetting of the biography?

"A Biography. Oh, sorry.

"Q Essentially, those things that you

still had to agree upon were that you wanted

reassurance regarding freedom in the presentation

of your material, and you also wished to restrict

the vetting of the biography to persons selected

by yourself; is that correct?

"A I insisted upon the latter point,

that those acceptable to me would be named in

the contract.

"Q Did you eventually reach an agreement

 

 

 
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with respect to these two issues?

"A Yes.

"Q When was that agreement reached?

"A At the time the contract was drawn

in October, 1980.

"Q You've testified that Mr. Wertheimer

drew up the actual agreement; is that correct?

"A Yes, he did.

"Q Did you have any -- "

MR. LITT: Objection, Your Honor. I objected to

that on the grounds that there was no foundation and

that it was hearsay. And Ms. Dragojevic then tried, I would

say unsuccessfully, to establish such a foundation. So

we would move to strike that answer. Mr. Garrison doesn't

know who prepared the contract.

THE COURT: Let's go on and I will come back to it.

Is there other testimony relating to it?

MR. FLYNN: (Reading):

"Q Did you have any contact with

Mr. Wertheimer prior to October, 1980?

"A I did not.

"Q When did you first meet Mr. Wertheimer?

"A October, 1980 -- "

MR. LITT: I withdraw my objection. I forgot I had

gone over that and it was established. I am sorry. Keep

reading.

MR. PETERSON: I think I was in the middle of an

answer.

 

 

 
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(Reading):

"A October, 1980, when I went to

his office first to thrash out the terms of

the contract.

"Q Was that prior to October 30, 1980,

when the agreement was signed?

"A It was.

"Q Was there anyone else present at

that time when you went to thrash out the

terms of the agreement with Mr. Wertheimer?

"A Yes.

"Q Who else was present?

"A Laurel Sullivan was present. There

was some other person, but I don't recall who

it was. Oh, it must -- perhaps it was Larry Brennan.

I'm not sure, but it was some other representative

from -- I know -- I don't know who it was.

"Q Were there any meetings that took

place between the formal meeting that you had

in East Grinstead with Mr. Gaiman and this meeting

in Mr. Wertheimer's office?

"A You mean face-to-face meetings?

"Q Yes.

"A No.

"Q At the time you were in Mr. Wertheimer's

office in October of 1980, did you actually sit

down with him to write the terms of the agreement?

"A We didn't write the terms at that time.

 

 

 
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We sat down around a conference table and had a

rather hyperthyroid session. Strike 'hyper-

thyroid' as being too responsive.

"Q Was it at that time that an

agreement was reached with respect to those

two issues that you set forth earlier?

"A No. It was agreed prior to that time

in substance. Part of it was filled out at

that time with respect to who would vet the

contract, and that was, indeed, written into

the contract.

"Q When was the rest of it decided?

In correspondence?

"A In -- yes, in correspondence

previous to that time.

"Q And who was the correspondence with?

"A Well, as I've referred to it, the

one immediately preceding was from Sheila Gaiman,

but there were others as well.

"Q Who did you understand Mr. Wertheimer

to represent?

"A Mr. L. Ron Hubbard.

"Q Did Mr. Wertheimer -- "

MR. LITT: We would move to strike this and the

remainder of that. It is all hearsay, Your Honor. The

witness has no personal knowledge.

 

 

 
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THE COURT: All right. I will strike it.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q Did Mr. Wertheimer tell you

that he represented L. Ron Hubbard?"

MR. LITT: Same objection; hearsay.

MR. FLYNN: Should I go down to --

THE COURT: Bottom of the page, line 28.

MR. LITT: Line 28.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q And who was it that you

understood Larry Brennan represented?

"A He said he had power of

attorney for New Era Publications, I

believe -- sorry, strike that. It was

Pubs DK.

"Q And who did you understand

Laurel Sullivan to represent?

"A She was at that time, she --

to put it in the quaint Scientology

terminology, she wore two hats. The one

that was related to me was that she was

Mr. Hubbard's I believe, Personal Public

Relations representative.

"Q Were there any representatives

of the Church of Scientology at this

meeting at Mr. Wertheimer's office?

"A I don't know.

"Q Was it your understanding that

 

 

 

 
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the Church of Scientology would be a

party to the contract?

"A Absolutely not.

"Q On what basis do you feel

that they were not a party to the

contract?

"A Well, because I discussed

it. I had no contractual relationship

with the Church of Scientology whatsoever.

"Q Who did you understand your

contractual relationship to be with?"

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I am going to object to that.

There is no foundation for the remainder of

this page through line 18 of the following page. Further-

more, the contract speaks for itself in terms of who the

contract was with.

Mr. Garrison expresses an opinion as to

whether or not Pubs DK is an alter ego of L. Ron Hubbard.

That is the basis of his claim, that he contracted with

L. Ron Hubbard for which there is no foundation.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, could I be heard?

THE COURT: Yes, go ahead.

MR. FLYNN: The basis of Mr. Armstrong's claim is

that he had a contract. Mr. Armstrong had a contract with

Mr. Hubbard, and Mr. Armstrong believed that Mr. Garrison

had a contract with Mr. Hubbard based upon the tripartite

contract between he and Pubs DK and Pubs DK and L. Ron

Hubbard. That is why we feel that that contract is relevant

 

 

 

 
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to interpreting the contract between Pubs DK and the

Garrison contract.

THE COURT: It seems to me that your client's state of

mind would have relevance to all of these matters. I don't

really see that Mr. Garrison's state of mind and who he

believed he might be contracting with is all that relevant.

I will sustain the objection.

Let's go over to line 20, page 88.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q Did you essentially hammer out

the terms of the agreement at this meeting

at Mr. Wertheimer's office?

"A Not the ones that eventually

appeared in the contract, I'm afraid.

"Q Did you ever see a draft of the

contract before October 30, 1980?

"A I did not.

"Q Were any changes made to the

contract on October 30, 1980 --

"A Yes. Sorry.

"Q -- when you signed it?

"A As you will see in the contract

itself, I was concerned about the premium

edition which I was informed could not be

spelled out in detail in the contract at the

time because the church was legally holding

that they had no contract" --

MR. FLYNN: No contact.

 

 

 
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MR. PETERSON: Oh, I am sorry.

"no contact with Mr. Hubbard,

and therefore there would be no way of

saying that he would sign these books.

So when I read the contract, I said never-

theless I'm going to write in and initial

a reference to premium editions, which

in fact I did."

MR. LITT: With respect to the first part of that

answer, I am going to move to strike it as hearsay.

As to the second part --

THE COURT: I will deny the motion. It seems to me

that these were summaries of conversations he had with the

people he was dealing with.

Overruled; denied. Go ahead.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q Who from the church told you

that they had no contact with L. Ron

Hubbard?

"A To a man, everyone I talked

with."

MR. LITT: Same objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I will deny it.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q Did Mr. Wertheimer ever tell

you that he had any contact with

Mr. Hubbard regarding the biography project?

"A No, he never did.

 

 

 
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"Q Did he ever tell you that he

had any contacts with Mr. Hubbard regarding

the terms of the contract entered into on

October 30th --

"A No, he did not.

"Q I want to refer you to

Exhibit 1, page 3, at the bottom is a sub-

paragraph b. In the tenth paragraph."

MR. LITT: For the Court's reference, that would be

Exhibit G.

"If you would please read it.

"A You want me to read it aloud?

"Q No. You can read it to yourself.

"A Yes.

"Q There is a reference in sub-

paragraph b. That the publisher would

provide the author with a research

assistant. Was it your understanding that at

that time the contract was entered into that

this research assistant was Gerry Armstrong?

"A Yes.

"Q Upon what basis do you say that?

"A I was told that.

"Q By whom?

"A By David Gaiman and by Laurel

Sullivan.

"Q Also in paragraph b it indicates

that the author would be provided with any

 

 

 
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needed archival and interview materials in

connection with the writing of the work.

"Was it ever discussed at the

time the agreement was signed what these

particular archival interview materials

actually were?

"A No, it was not.

"Q After the agreement was signed

on October the 30th, 1980, did Mr. Armstrong

immediately begin working with you on the

biography project?

"A Almost immediately, yes.

"Q Had you had any contact with

Mr. Armstrong since the meeting in

Mr. Gaiman's office in East Grinstead?

"A I had no contact with

Mr. Armstrong between the time we met in

East Grinstead and the time following

this signing of the contract and he began

to function as a research assistant.

"Q Where were you living at the

time you were working on the biography

project?

"A In my various places. I don't

recall the exact address, but it was in

Costa Mesa I had a place and in Utah, of

course. Let's say that was my residence.

"Q Did Mary Sue Hubbard play any

 

 

 
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role in the contract negotiations?

"A None at all to my knowledge.

"Q Was she one of the indi-

viduals who would have reviewed the

biography manuscript for authorization?

"A She was not.

"Q Did you have any contact with

Mary Sue Hubbard during the time that you

were working on the biography?

"A I did.

"Q What form did that contact take?

"A Correspondence.

"Q When did this correspondence

pass between the two of you?

"A It was just prior to Christmas

of -- or just after Christmas -- around the

Christmas season 1981, I think; could have

been '82 -- I believe '81. I don't know.

I have the letter to refer to it if it's

important.

"Q Who initiated the correspondence

with Mrs. Hubbard?

"A I did.

"Q What was the purpose of your

corresponding with her?

"A I wanted a face-to-face

interview to help develop materials for the

biography.

 

 

 
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"Q Did you receive any reply from

Mrs. Hubbard?

"A I did.

"Q What was her reply?"

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I object to the description

of the reply as being hearsay under the best evidence rule.

The defendant does, I believe, have a copy of that corres-

pondence.

THE COURT: Well, the letter is in evidence.

MR. LITT: That particular letter is not in evidence,

I don't believe, at least at this point. This is a response

of Mrs. Hubbard to Mr. Garrison.

THE COURT: Well, the witness isn't here.

MR. LITT: Well, Miss Dragojevic clarifies it. Her

question was whether he had the letter, not what it said.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I think it is important to

show Mrs. Hubbard's state of mind.

 

 

 
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THE COURT: Well, there is no question that the letter

would be the best evidence. The problem is if the document

is in the possession of somebody else and nobody asked him

to put it into evidence or mark it or anything, secondary

evidence would be admissible.

I presume that if he is going to be here he can

be cross-examined on it. I will take the position it is

secondary evidence and the original wasn't put in the

record, so I will deny the motion to strike. You can read

the answer.

MR. PETERSON: (Reading:)

"A The reply was that she was very

pleased with the biography going forward and

that she would like very much to meet with me,

but there were security considerations because

there were many people who were trying to serve

her subpoenas in various damage suits and that

for that reason she didn't want to, in effect,

be interviewed, but that if I would submit a

list of questions of what I wanted to know she

would be happy to answer them in writing.

"Q You indicated you still have that

correspondence?

"A I do have it, yes.

"Q Do you have her reply to you?

"A Yes.

"Q Okay. Maybe my question was a

little misleading. I wanted to know whether

 

 

 
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you have your letter to her?

"A I'm not certain about that. I

looked for it because the question came up, and

I was asked about this. To my best belief I do

have it somewhere. I don't know where it is.

I do know where her reply is.

"Q Did you ever send Mrs. Hubbard

any written questions?

"A I did not.

"Q Is there a reason for that?

"A Yes. I never -- I won't submit

written questions to a Pope, to a king, to

anyone. If they won't confront me with a

face-to-face interview, there's no interview.

I've interviewed the Pope; I've interviewed

kings; I've interviewed presidents

face-to-face; so why should I not interview

Mary Sue Hubbard? Strike that as being

unresponsive.

"Q Did you have any other

correspondence with Mary Sue Hubbard?

"A I did not.

"Q Did she ever send you any memos

or written dispatches of any type?

"A I'm not sure. I would -- my

first inclination is to say 'no,' but I believe

there are some memoranda that either came

through channels or indirectly to me.

 

 

 

 
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"Q Do you know whether Mary Sue

Hubbard played any role in the selection of

documents to be provided for the biography?

"A To my knowledge, none.

"Q Did you have any information that

Mr. Armstrong was required to seek approval

from Mary Sue Hubbard before selecting

documentation for the biography?

"A I know nothing of that at all."

MR. LITT: The next questions, Your Honor, are

all pretty straight-forward hearsay, down to --

THE COURT: I don't think they shed any light on

anything either.

Go to page 95, line 8.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q Mr. Garrison, going back to that

first formal meeting in East Grinstead in

Mr. Gaiman's office, can you recall being

provided with a list of materials and a

photographic inventory by Mr. Armstrong at that

time?

"A I remember a photographic

inventory. I'm not sure about a list of

materials, but this is possible. I definitely

remember a photographic inventory because I

commented on how extensive it was.

"Q Was it your understanding that

the inventory was of matters in the archives?

 

 

 
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"A Well, that would be -- yes, that

was my understanding, yes.

"Q Also, around the time of the

signing of the agreement in October of 1980,

can you recall being toured through the

archives by Laurel Sullivan?

"A Yes. I have said so in an

affidavit.

"Q Were you shown any materials at

that time by Miss Sullivan?

"A In a general way. I wasn't

handed something and said 'read this.' I was

just shown materials in files.

"Q What was the purpose of your

being toured through the archives?

"A I don't know.

"Q Did Miss Sullivan ever indicate

to you that the materials contained in the

archives through which you were toured would be

those provided for the writing of the

biography?

"A Yes, she did. They were in an

office adjoining a very small office that I was

supposed to use for that purpose; and,

therefore, she pointed out the convenience of

Mr. Armstrong being in an adjoining office.

"Q Did you ever use that office?

"A Very briefly, yes.

 

 

 
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"Q Was that in the beginning --

"A In the beginning,yes. Sorry.

"Q Were you told at the time by

Miss Sullivan that these were the archives of

Mr. Hubbard?

"A I don't think she described them

in words at all.

"Q Whose archives did you believe

them to be?

"A In the quick glance I had through

the files themselves, I saw all these personal

letters, and so who else would it be but those

of Mr. Hubbard, so I concluded they were

Mr. Hubbard's private papers.

"Q At any time thereafter, were you

told that these were the archives of

Mr. Hubbard?

"A Not specifically I don't believe.

"Q But you believed them to be the

archives of Mr. Hubbard?

"A I believed them to be in the

archives of Mr. Hubbard.

"Q During the time that you were

working on the biography, other than the

documents provided by Mr. Armstrong, what did

you use for research purposes or for writing

purposes?

"A A great deal -- not -- certain

 

 

 

 
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research, which I did on my own.

"Q Did Mr. Armstrong provide you

with any information that was not in the form

of documents from archives?

"A Not that I recall.

"Q Did he conduct any interviews of

any relatives of the Hubbard family for you?

"A Yes. That was in line with his

work as an assistant.

"Q And he provided you with all of

this information; is that correct?

"A I don't know whether it was all,

but he provided me with everything that I knew

about, certainly.

"Q Was there anything else during

the research and writing of the biography that

changed the game plan in your mind? Do you

understand the question?

"A I assume I do. I had no game

plan, number one, other than that stated as a

brief quotation in the manuscript, namely that

I was going to act as a good historian and

relate everything that was in -- that was

pertinent to this history regardless of whether

it added anything to Mr. Hubbard's stature or

not. And that was the only criterion I had for

this book.

"Q During the time of the research

 

 

 
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and writing, did any differences arise between

yourself and the publisher or any other party

regarding the criterion that you have just

outlined?

"A No. It couldn't arise because

they hadn't seen the manuscript.

"Q Somewhat earlier you testified

that you did write a biography of Mr. Hubbard

which you included in an ENCYCLOPEDIA OF

PROPHECY; is that correct?

"A That's correct.

"Q Did the biography that you

eventually began writing contain essentially

the same facts and information regarding the

life of Mr. Hubbard as that original

biography?"

MR. LITT: Your Honor, if I may, the next series

of questions are all questions relating to questions

concerning Mr. Hubbard's background as Mr. Garrison views

it. It is not based on personal knowledge; it is all

interpretive. It is beyond the scope. It is all based on

hearsay. He had been told that, and he had seen this, and

he concluded that.

I have noted it for the court to where it goes.

You can see it goes on quite a ways. And we object to this

whole line of questioning. We don't think it is

appropriate. Certainly not appropriate at this stage.

THE COURT: I am just trying to see how far --

 

 

 
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MR. LITT: This is the big one, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I am up to page 111.

MR. FLYNN: This is the heart of the defense with

regard to what Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Garrison went through

and discovered the facts about Mr. Hubbard.

THE COURT: Bear with me. Let me look through this

material.

 

(Pause.)

 

THE COURT: Well, I am of the feeling that we are

still on the plaintiff's case, and I am going to sustain the

objection at this time without prejudice, and presumably

this gentleman is coming here to testify.

It may be that this will be relevant material on

the defendant's case. I'm not quite sure how his

recitations necessarily would relate to the defense of the

case, but I think at this stage of the game -- I won't refer

to it as a game, but at this stage of the trial I will

sustain the objection. And you either present it again and

we will rule upon it again when he gets here or perhaps you

will have to read it again if it is appropriate.

I think we are over to about page 115, line 26.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q You testified earlier that after

Mr. Armstrong left the organization he

continued working for you; is that correct?

"A That's correct, yes.

 

 

 
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"Q Did he set up an office in your

behalf?

"A Yes. It wasn't quite that

formal. He had quarters which -- temporarily,

and this was very brief; I paid the rent and

the telephone bill because it was to be used

strictly as a -- well, not strictly, I mean he

had -- he could do what he liked, really, but

principally it was to be used as an office for

Ralston-Pilot Publishers.

"Q Did he also use the office in

connection with his continuing work on the

biography project?

"A Yes, for a time he did.

"Q And this was the particular

office located in the Costa Mesa dwelling; is

that correct?

"A Not the one I occupied. There

was another address in Costa Mesa.

 

 

 
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"Q This would have been the one

occupied by Mr. Armstrong?

"A That's correct, yes.

"Q You also testified earlier

that there were a great number of copies

of the archives' documents kept at the

Costa Mesa dwelling; is that correct?

"A My address, you mean, or at

the office?

"Q The office of --

"A Yes, from time to time they

passed back and forth because I was

working on them, and I'd ask Gerry to do

something and to bring -- they passed

back and forth between the two addresses.

"Q Did there ever come a time

when you became afraid for the security

of the documents?"

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I have a similar objection to

this line of questioning through the top of page 120.

THE COURT: Well, there's already been some testimony

about it. I am going to overrule the objection.

MR. PETERSON: Would you give me the line again?

MR. FLYNN: Line 4, page 117:

"Q Did there ever come a time

when you became afraid for the security

of the documents?

"A There did.

 

 

 
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"Q Do you recall when that

occurred?

"A I couldn't -- well, I

couldn't pinpoint the time as to date,

but, again, it was at the time that --

I can date it from the time that

Mr. Armstrong was first approached at

the outside a -- outside the post office

and handed a letter from an attorney

indicating that legal action was pending

against him.

"Let me go back, actually.

Let me clarify that answer. My appre-

hension with regard to the security of

the documents even antedated that. It

became more acute at that point, but I

had misgivings about them from the time

that time -- I shall refer to it as

'infamous meeting' -- at which we were to

discuss amending the contract but which

resulted in my saying that henceforth we

would deal through attorneys."

MR. LITT: If I may, Your Honor, especially this

characterization "handed a letter from an attorney indicating

that legal action was pending against him."

This is the best evidence rule and that is in

evidence. Those were the letters presumably from

Mr. Peterson. Those were the only letters that were sent to

 

 

 
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Mr. Armstrong that I am aware of, and that is not what the

letters say.

THE COURT: Well, I am going to deny your motion.

Apparently it is hearsay, but it is his state of mind. He

is asked about when he became concerned with the security,

and I suppose it has to do with evidence that you developed

as to his movement of exhibits to and fro to other places.

Let's go ahead.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q Do you recall when this

infamous meeting took place? Was it in

early 1982?

"A It was in May 1982.

"Q What about the meeting caused

you some alarm regarding the security of

the documents?

"A Well, the fact that there was --

at the termination of the meeting there was

complete hostility between me and those

present; I'll except Sherman Lenske because

he was an attorney. But as for the

Scientologists present, it was obvious that

I had become what in Scientology is known

as a 'Suppressive Person.'"

MR. LITT: Well, I would reiterate my objection, if

you want to change your ruling.

THE COURT: This is a different situation. I will

strike his conclusion of what was obvious because that is a

 

 

 
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conclusion on his part.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q Who was present at this meeting?

"A I couldn't tell you everyone

there.

"Q You already indicated the name

of an attorney.

"A Yes, Sherman Lenske.

"Q I think when we broke I was

asking you, Mr. Garrison, who was present

at the infamous meeting regarding the

amendment of your contract.

"A Apart from this Mr. Lenske,

there was -- I suppose presiding as he was

the attorney there. There was Lyman

Spurlock; I believe Terri Gamboa; a girl

named Marlowe, surnamed Marlowe -- some

of these persons I didn't know. I didn't

even know Spurlock's name until afterwards,

and others whom I didn't know, actually.

Oh, Vaughn Young was present.

"Q What was it that caused the

hostility at the meeting?

"A During a discussion of the

original contract, I pointed out that

there had been gross misrepresentations to

me and that I had agreed in the contract

to certain terms because of misapprehension

 

 

 

 
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and because of misrepresentation, and for

that reason I wanted the contract amended

to bring it into line with the ordinary

garden-variety publisher-author contract,

and that that meant, of course, that I was

to receive the customary returns for sub-

sidiary rights and so on, at which point

Mr. Spurlock said, 'You are trying to

blackmail us.' And when he charged me with

blackmail, which is, of course, a slanderous

term, I terminated the meeting and said

thereafter if that's how they felt, they

could deal through attorneys.

"Q What was your exact fear with

respect to the security of the documents at

that point?"

MR. LITT: Your Honor, this is pure conclusion.

THE COURT: It is his state of mind, for whatever it

is worth. Explanation of why he did what he did.

"A If I understand your question

correctly, I felt that they -- by 'they,' I

mean representatives of the Church of

Scientology, specifically of this organization

called B1, who. were trained to break and

enter, would come -- and in fact my house was

entered, whether by them or whoever, that

they would come looking for the documents and

that I would be left holding nothing to show

 

 

 
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for my work.

"Q What did you do with the

documents at that point that you had in

your home?

"A I began carrying them around

with me, much to my wife's consternation

and we found ourselves with tons of docu-

ments wherever we went, lugging them into

hotel rooms and transporting them over long

distances. It was a nightmare. It was like

Scrooge with his ledgers.

"Q Did you deliver some of them

to Mr. Crago?

"A Those were copies that went to

Mr. Crago. Those were copies that were made

to insure in the event that the binders

which Mr. Armstrong provided me were in

fact taken, that I would have these to fall

back on.

"Q Did you ask Mr. Armstrong to

make copies of the documents that you had

in your possession?

"A The ones that went to Mr. Crago?

"Q Yes.

"A Yes, I did.

"Q Did you ask him to make copies

of all of the documents that you had which

you believed you would need to support your

 

 

 
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biography?

"A I believe I did.

"Q Would that have been the

majority of the documents in your pos-

session?

"A That was my original intention.

"Q Did Mr. Armstrong in fact make

copies for you?

"A Yes, he did make copies.

"Q Did you instruct him as to what

he should do with the copies he made?

"A Well, no. I mean I don't quite

follow you.

"Q Did you discuss with him what

would be done with the copies?

"A The copies would come to me.

"Q My understanding is that some

of the copies went to you, and some of the

copies went to Mr. Crago.

"A Well, they came to me, and I

took them to Mr. Crago. I took them there

for safe keeping.

"Q Did you take all of them there

for safe keeping?

"A All the copies. All that I had

at the time I took to Mr. Crago.

"Q Were any of them left behind

in the office of Ralston-Pilot?

 

 

 
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"A I don't know.

"Q And those were the documents

that you retrieved from Mr. Crago a short

time before his deposition being taken; is

that correct?

"A Yes.

"Q Did Mr. Armstrong ever report

to you or tell you that he had received a

document entitled a 'Suppressive Person

Declare, Gerry Armstrong'"

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I will object on hearsay

grounds.

THE COURT: Overruled.

"A He showed me such a document.

"Q Do you recall approximately

when he showed you that document?

"A No, I don't recall the date.

"Q Was it around the spring of

1982?

"A Could well have been, yes.

"Q Did you have any discussion

with Mr. Armstrong regarding the document?

"A I did, yes.

"Q What was the substance of your

discussion with him?

"A The substance was that I said

that this is outrageous.

"Q Did Mr. Armstrong tell you how

 

 

 
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he obtained the document?

"A No, I never knew.

"Q Did Mr. Armstrong tell you

that the document caused him some appre-

hension?"

MR. LITT: I will object again on hearsay grounds.

THE COURT: It is evidence of Mr. Armstrong's state

of mind; overruled.

"A Yes, he did tell me that.

 

 

 
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"Q What did he tell you in that

vein?

"A Well, simply that he felt his

life was in danger.

"Q Did he tell you why he felt his

life was in danger?

"A He referred to the past

history of B1 and so on as being

extremely -- these people that were engaged

in that particular department of the

organization were extremely vindictive, and

that they would carry out any order no

matter whether it was legal or illegal;

that persons who were declared were to be --

could be utterly destroyed."

MR. LITT: I have the same objection to all of these.

Mr. Armstrong's state of mind, I don't think

is in issue.

THE COURT: Well, overruled. It is in evidence in

the case.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q Could you please tell us

what the abbreviation 'B1' stands for?

"A I believe it's Bureau

Information, but it is in fact an intelli-

gence agency."

MR. LITT: As to the "in fact" --

THE COURT: I will strike that as a conclusion.

 

 

 

 
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MR. FLYNN : (Reading:)

"Q Did Mr. Armstrong ever show

you any other 'Suppressive Person Declares'?

"A Not that I recall.

"Q Do you know whether he

received any others?

"A I do not.

"Q Did Mr. Armstrong's receipt

of this Suppressive Person Declare add to

your concern regarding the security of the

documents?

"A Considerably so, yes.

"Q And can you explain why?

"A Well, because they knew --

when I say 'they,' again, I am talking

about representatives of the church and

specifically representatives of the

church and B1 and the Guardian's Office,

let us say, as an overall; and since

Gerry was declared, and I was obviously

also hostile because of following the

meeting, that an attempt would be made --

as indeed I had information documents had

been stolen in the past, not only in the

case of Washington but in the case, in

certain cases in England that you know

nothing of -- that they have a past history

of breaking and entering, and it was just a

 

 

 
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matter of prudence for me to secure the

documents for my own protection."

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I assume if this is being

received, it is solely for state of mind.

THE COURT: Yes, nothing to do with the truth of

what is therein stated.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q Do you recall a meeting in

April of 1982 in which you accompanied

Mr. Armstrong to church premises in Los

Angeles where he requested the return of

some photographs?

"A I recall it very vividly.

"Q Why was it that you went

with Mr. Armstrong that day?"

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I am going to make the same

objection here.

I know Mr. Armstrong is going to testify about

that in this case, but I do believe that in our case that is

well beyond the scope. There was no testimony in our case

about it. It has to do with an affirmative defense

essentially, and there was no testimony in Mr. Garrison's

deposition that would raise this issue.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, this relates to the damages

and the hiring of the private investigator that Mr. Peterson

put in yesterday.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, this is way before the private

investigators were hired. This is in April.

 

 

 
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THE COURT: well, it would bear upon his state of

mind. I will overrule the objection.

"A It was in the evening, and I

went with him at his urgent request. He

told me that he needed me to be with him

because he feared for his life if he went

alone.

"Q Did he tell you why he feared

for his life?

"A No, he did not."

MR. LITT: All of this is introduced solely as to

state of mind?

THE COURT: Yes, or as it may be corroborative of

Mr. Armstrong's testimony as it is later developed or not

corroborative.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

"Q Did you know anything about

the photographs which Mr. Armstrong sought

to obtain from the church?

"A I believe I -- I believe I

did but not a great deal about them.

"Q Had Mr. Armstrong told you

anything about the photographs before you

went with him?

"A I -- I'm not sure that he

had, but it's possible that he had

because -- in any event, by the time we

arrived there I did know -- oh, I knew

 

 

 
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because he had gone first to another person's

home with regard to the photographs, and some

of the information, I believe, was divulged

there.

"Q And what person was that?

"A I believe his name was Wilhite.

"Q And did some conversation

regarding the photographs take place at Mr.

Wilhite's?

"A Yes. It was my understanding,

in listening to the conversation, that

Mr. Armstrong had given Mr. Wilhite these

photographs because Mr. Wilhite knew

persons who were interested in buying them.

And that instead of selling, as in fact he

had told Mr. Armstrong, according to

Mr. Armstrong, that he had had a buyer that

he sold them, in fact and instead he had

turned them over to representatives of the

Church of Scientology.

"And it was at that point that

Mr. Armstrong went to the, I believe, the

headquarters of the Commodore's Messengers

in the Cedars Complex, and I accompanied

him.

"Q Did you accompany Mr. Armstrong

when he spoke to the representative of the

CMO?

 

 

 
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"A Yes. I sat in the passage

outside, just outside the room in which

he --

"Q Were you able to overhear any

of the conversation?

"A As it was a high decibel

conversation and completely at times

hysterical, yes, I was able to overhear

it.

"Q Did Mr. Armstrong request

return of the photographs?

"A Vehemently.

"Q What was the response of the

individual CMO member?

"A In substance, and the final

word was, 'Get yourself a lawyer.'

"Q Do you know the name of the

individual that Mr. Armstrong was speaking

with?

"A There were several, but the

one who told him to get a lawyer and who

apparently had the -- the discretion at

the meeting was Terri Gamboa.

"Q Do you know the names of the

other individuals present other than Terri

Gamboa?

"A I do not.

"Q Did any of the individuals at

 

 

 
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the Scientology organization speaking with

Mr. Armstrong state or admit that they had

the photographs in their possession?

"A I really don't recall.

"Q Do you recall any discussion

in which the members of the CMO refused to

turn the photographs back to Mr. Armstrong?

"A Yes. They definitely refused.

 

 

 
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"Q And they advised Mr. Armstrong

to get an attorney; is that correct?

"A That was their parting word to him,

yes.

"Q Did you then leave the church

premises?

"A Yes, we did.

"Q Can you describe Mr. Armstrong's

condition when he left the church premises. Was he

shaken?

"A Do you really want me to?

"Q Yes, certainly.

"A Maniacal.

"Q Did he indicate to you that he

was afraid for his life at that point?

"A Very much so. He was totally

distraught. He was virtually incoherent at

that point.

"Q Did you have any discussion with him

regarding obtaining an attorney to represent

him?

"A I don't recall at that time that I did.

I believe not.

"Q Were there any other events that

took place in the spring of 1982 which resulted

in Mr. Armstrong stating to you that he was

in fear of his life, other than the ones we've

talked about?

 

 

 

 
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"A There were on-going incidents

and misadventures and so on. It was a constant

source of discussion, constant source of discussion

between us.

"Q Did Mr. Armstrong's wife ever tell

you that she was afraid for her life during

that period?"

MR. LITT: Objection; Mrs. Armstrong.

THE COURT: I will sustain that objection.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading):

"Q Did they appear distraught to you

during that time?"

MR. LITT: Same objection; asks about both. And

it is compound.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. PETERSON: (Reading):

"A Very much so.

"Q After this incident with the

photographs, do you know whether Mr. Armstrong

went to seek counsel?

"A I do not. I was not aware. I

do not know.

"Q Can you recall ever taking

Mr. Armstrong to the airport for a flight to

meet with an attorney by the name of Michael Flynn?

"A Yes, I do recall that. I didn't

know -- actually my impression was that

Mr. Armstrong was going to Clearwater, Florida,

 

 

 

 
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to attend some sort of hearing that they

were having and not specifically to meet an

attorney. But apparently -- I understood that

Mr. Flynn was involved because he had been

involved in the Clearwater scene for quite

some time, and there was a document I had of some

of the proceedings on that.

"Q After you took Mr. Armstrong to

the airport, do you recall Mr. Armstrong's

wife staying with you and your wife?

"A She stayed in our flat because

she was afraid to stay alone in their dwelling."

MR. LITT: Objection. I am going to move to strike

as hearsay.

THE COURT: Hearsay. Stricken.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading):

"Q And that was as a result of those

events that had occurred with respect to --

"A Previously --

"Q -- the Church of Scientology?"

MR. LITT: No foundation.

THE COURT: Strike as well.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading):

"Q Did Mr. Armstrong at any time tell

you that he had sent documents to Mr. Flynn?

"A Mr. Armstrong was not too forthcoming

with me in the early stages of his relationship

with Mr. Flynn because I had objected to Mr. Flynn

 

 

 
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having any documents except later on what was

absolutely necessary for Mr. Armstrong's defense.

I felt that quite --

"See, I did not know Mr. Flynn, and I

had great reservation about his having any of the

documents, but that if he were to have some he

should have only those that pertained to the

legal proceedings, because of his relationship

with other writers I wanted to protect my

material.

"Q I believe that you indicated in

your earlier testimony that you were willing that

Mr. Armstrong have any of the material he needed

provided that it could not be distributed beyond the

legal arena.

"A That's correct.

"Q Do you feel that Mr. Armstrong

violated that agreement that you had with him?

"A I don't think Mr. Armstrong

gave any material outside the legal arena. I

have the reservation as to whether it ever went

outside. I was -- to be quite candid, I was never

informed in any detail what information Mr. Armstrong

gave to Mr. Flynn, and I don't know to this moment

in accurate detail. When the documents came to

be sealed by the court, I asked repeatedly;

I tried to get information.

"Mr. Armstrong -- I asked him specifically

 

 

 
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what is all -- what is -- the press had an

exaggerated, apparently an exaggerated estimate

of how much material had been taken into court,

and this astonished me. So I asked Mr. Armstrong

what in hell is all that about 22 cartons or

something, and he said that -- I said, 'Was

this material that came from my collection?'

And he said only -- the only things that were

taken to the court, were sealed in the court,

were those, as he put it, legal stuff that was

necessary for the case.

"Q Do you have any information that

any of the documents taken were distributed

beyond the legal arena?

"A I have no indication of that

whatever.

"Q You testified earlier that in the

past you had been provided with an enormous

amount of material with respect to the writing

of various books and that you had an understanding

that the materials would be kept confidential;

is that correct?

"A It was a tacit understanding that

was never formalized or -- it was well understood.

Mr. Gaiman and I always had very cordial and

amicable relations because he understood me and

I understood him; but it was never -- no one ever

said you are going to observe the confidentiality

 

 

 
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of these documents. He simply assumed that I

would, and I did.

"Q Was that ever a part of the

contract of October, 1980?

"A No, it was not. I don't think

confidentiality was ever mentioned in connection

with any of these documents to me."

MR. LITT: I am going to move to strike that on the

basis that the contract, which is in evidence, speaks for

itself, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, everything after "No, it was not"

will be stricken as nonresponsive.

 

 

 
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MR. FLYNN: (Reading):

"Q Did Mr. Armstrong ever tell you why

he thought it was necessary to retain counsel?

"A No. It would have been -- "

THE COURT: You can leave that out. "No."

MR. FLYNN: (Reading):

"Q From Exhibit 2 which is attached

to this deposition, it's apparent that you have

recently entered into a settlement agreement

with New Era Publications -- "

MR. LITT: I am sorry. For the record, perhaps

Mr. Flynn could use Exhibit 22.

THE COURT: That is Exhibit 22.

MR. LITT: Our Exhibit 22 is Exhibit 2 to the

deposition. Otherwise there will be some confusion in

the record.

THE COURT: No problem.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading:)

" ... and that the document which has

been attached as Exhibit 2 (22) is simply

an Exhibit 2 (22) to the confidential settlement

agreement; is that correct?

"A May I see?

"Q I'm referring now to paragraph 1 of

Exhibit 2 (22).

"A Yes. The answer is yes.

"Q Who was present during the settlement

negotiations?

 

 

 
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"A I'd like to know the purpose

of the question, first. I mean, how is it

related to Mr. Armstrong's case?"

THE COURT: Let's not get involved with colloquy.

MR. LITT: The colloquy goes on quite a ways, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: I guess, on page 135, line 5.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading):

"Q Well, let me rephrase the question.

Whose interests were represented at the settle-

ment negotiations?

"A As I understand it, the New Era

Publications was represented; Mary Sue Hubbard

was represented, and the -- I don't really

know whom the other attorneys were representing;

I assume they were representing -- who are their

clients?"

THE COURT: Let's go down to line 27.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading):

"Q I believe the question that I

had asked before we broke was whose interests

were represented during the settlement negotiations,

and Mr. Garrison answered New Era Publications

and Mary Sue Hubbard.

"A And, of course, my own.

"Q All right. Are those the only

interests that you are aware of that were

represented?

 

 

 
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"A The only ones that I'm aware of,

yes.

"Q Are you aware of anyone representing

the interests of L. Ron Hubbard?

"A Directly, no, I'm not. In other

words, to clarify that, no one has represented

to me that he represents L. Ron Hubbard directly.

"Q So as far as you know, Mr. Hubbard

was not represented at this settlement?

"A Not at all. Mr. Hubbard may have

been represented. I don't say that. It is my

belief that he was, but that's simply my belief.

I think he was very much represented there."

MR. LITT: I would move to strike starting with the

words "it is my belief."

THE COURT: It will be stricken.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading):

"Q What was your belief based upon -- "

THE COURT: Well, skip that. I guess, line 19 on

page 137.

MR. FLYNN: (Reading):

"Q The document marked as Exhibit 2 (22)

paragraph 4 indicates that you delivered all

documents and materials obtained in relation to

the preparation of the biography to the Church

of Scientology International.

"Was it ever represented to you that

Mr. Hubbard authorized the delivery of these

 

 

 
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documents to the Church of Scientology International?

"A No.

"Q Did you sign any releases in

connection with this settlement agreement?

"A I didn't sign releases. All I

signed was the settlement agreement which was

an agreement.

 

 

 

 

[Missing pages 1334, 1335]

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with the Mafia and many other things; I have

been through a war. I don't give any thought

to personal danger; and if I did, I'm not

easily intimidated."

THE COURT: I guess we get Mr. Litt back again

on page 141.

MR. LITT: Right.

"Q Mr. Garrison, I only have a few

questions, and I hope that will be an accurate

statement. I have been accused on occasion of

saying that and going for an hour, but I'll see

if I can avoid it at this time.

You stated during your testimony,

both during the cross-examination and earlier,

that the contract that you signed specified

individuals who could review the manuscript. I

must confess that if it's there I can't find

it.

"A Well, it may be another case of

something agreed to and not put in.

"It wasn't included, but I can

tell if you are interested. It was David

Gaiman, L. Ron Hubbard, and there was one other

person. Those were the principals, and my

impression is there was one other person whom I

don't recall at the moment.

"Q Okay.

"A It was expected at that time,

 

 

 
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actually, that Mr. Gaiman, as he had done

previously with the other books, would read the

manuscript -- and I might say as an aside

parenthetically that he never found anything

objectionable in the others, and this is why I

thought he was intelligent, and he could -- also

he had a broad and liberal view about what

would go in the manuscript -- that he would

read it, and after he read it he would pass it

on to Mr. Hubbard. That was the understanding.

But I believe there was some backup for

Mr. Gaiman; in case he wasn't available to do

it, someone else could do it in his stead.

"Q Now, regarding the archives,

you've indicated that the archives appear to

you to be archives of Mr. Hubbard. Do you mean

by that that the archives were materials that

appeared to be Mr. Hubbard's materials?

"A Yes. There were materials that

no person in his right mind -- that were so

intimate that no person in his right mind would

pass on to an organization. Moreover, the

reason I assumed that is that they were

materials which ran contrary to published

biographies of Hubbard, and they were materials

which would be deleterious to his image with

his followers; therefore, it would follow that

he would not have it in the hands of his

 

 

 

 
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followers, I mean, willingly or knowingly or --

I just think that they were very, very private

papers, as you must have seen if you examined

the documents I returned.

"Q The archives themselves were kept

not with Mr. Hubbard, to your knowledge, but

were kept at the Cedars of Lebanon complex; is

that right?

"A Which archives? Do you mean

originally or at the time I came on the scene?

"Q When you came on the scene.

"A When I came on the scene, the

principal place where archives were kept, as

far as I know, was in Cedars of Lebanon near

where my office was. For my convenience, I

understood that they were moved there so I

could be moved next to them. That's all.

"Q When you have dealt with

people -- I'm going to try to discuss this in a

broad sense. When you have dealt with

Scientologists related to the subject of

Scientology or Mr. Hubbard, has, in your

experience, anyone who is not a Scientologist

in good standing ever had the authority to

represent either the church or Mr. Hubbard?"

MR. LITT: The answer is on line 26.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I am going to object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

 

 

 
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MR. LITT: (Reading:)

"A Not to my knowledge.

"Q Now, you stated that

Mr. Armstrong, you thought, was representing

Mr. Hubbard. Would it be fair to say that your

actual knowledge was that he was authorized to

gather research for the biography?"

MR. LITT: Going on, there is no answer to that:

"Q You have no knowledge, do you, of

any appointment, for instance, of Mr. Armstrong

as Mr. Hubbard's agent?

"A I have only the --

 

 

 

 
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"Q He couldn't, for instance, transact

business for him; is that right?

"A I've never seen any power of

attorney, if that's what you mean.

"Q Do you have any information that

would indicate that Mr. Armstrong was

Mr. Hubbard's agent for general purposes;

he acted as his representative in legal

affairs or financial affairs?

"A No.

"Q It was your understanding, I take it,

that Mr. Hubbard had approved the biography

and had approved Mr. Armstrong acting as

archivist with respect to the biography?

"A That was my understanding.

"Q And it was your understanding that

this position that he held was based upon his

position in the church as a Scientologist in

good standing?

"A That I wouldn't know, but I

would assume that if you want me to assume it."

MR. LITT: Then the witness adds at line 4:

"But I have no way of knowing that.

"Q Well, aside from whether you were

ever told that, would it be fair to say, based

on what you observed and your experience,

Mr. Armstrong's position as an archivist was

tied to his position as a scientologist in good

 

 

 
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standing?

"A Well, yes. I would categorically

answer yes.

"Q And when Mr. Armstrong left the

church and left Scientology, you no longer

considered him, did you, a Scientologist in

good standing?

"A No.

"Q And similarly you no longer

considered him, did you, someone who continued

to be authorized by Mr. Hubbard to be his

archivist?

"A No, I had no reason to believe

that.

"Q And based on all your experience,

you would conclude, wouldn't you, that given his

falling out with the church and with Scientology

and with Mr. Hubbard,.that he would no longer act

in this capacity?"

MR. FLYNN: Objection, Your Honor.

MR. LITT: The objection wasn't made at the time.

MR. FLYNN: It is hearsay, Your Honor.

MR. LITT: It calls --

MR. FLYNN: It calls for an opinion.

MR. LITT: Based on his experience.

THE COURT: Well, I will overrule the objection.

"A Well, he had no connection when he

left the church with the church so he couldn't

 

 

 

 
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act in that capacity. I mean it's self-evident

that he couldn't and therefore --

"Q I won't quarrel with that.

"A Therefore the answer is self-evident,

you see. No.

"Q So in his continuing to work with you

on the biography, he was basically doing this

for you at that point, in your mind, not for

Mr. Hubbard; is that right?

"A I never stopped to question that,

but if you are bringing the question up now, I

would guess he was doing it for me."

MR. FLYNN: Move to strike or the ground

of speculation, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right, everything appears to be a

guess, so I will strike it.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I don't think it is a guess.

It is a question of your state of mind. If we allow in

these things about his state of mind, his state of mind

was when Mr. Armstrong left the church he no longer had

authority to act for Mr. Hubbard.

THE COURT: Well, I don't think this is a major

issue in this lawsuit.

MR. LITT: Well, I agree with that, but it was

gone into at some length in the cross.

MR. FLYNN: I will withdraw my objection.

We will let the guess stand then, Your Honor.

MR. LITT: (Reading):

 

 

 
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"Q How long have you worked in various

ways with Scientology?

"A Ten years -- approximately ten

years.

"Q During those ten years, you've

had extensive experience in dealing with the

church working with Scientologists?

"A Yes, I have.

"Q And also you've had extensive

experience in working with Scientologists who --

I won't use the words 'representing' Mr. Hubbard,

but you were looking out for Mr. Hubbard's

interests?

"A Yes.

"Q And on the basis of that experience,

you would concludes, would you not, that

Mr. Hubbard always entrusted his affairs or

asked people to assist him in one respect or

another only in the event that they were

Scientologists in good standing; is that

correct?

"A My assumption would be yes.

"Q I'm not asking for an assumption,

but based on your experience? I'm not asking

at this point --

"A Would I conclude that based on my

experience, yes.

"Q And did you have experience in which

 

 

 
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there were people in positions within the church

who upon leaving the church no longer would act

for Mr. Hubbard's interests upon their leaving

the church? Did you ever observe that occur?

"A No, I had no contact with such people

at all.

"Q You mentioned a Sue Anderson that

you had dealt with.

"A Yes.

"Q Did there come a point where you no

longer dealt with her?

"A Yes.

"Q Do you know whether she left the

church around that same time?

"A Not that same time. She was

reassigned to do something else, and Laurel

Sullivan, I believe, took over.

"Q And at some point Laurel Sullivan

left the church; is that right?

"A I understood she did. I've been

told she did.

"Q You indicated that you couldn't

have written the full and complete biography

that you did without the assistance of

Mr. Armstrong, I believe.

"A Yes.

"Q When you say that, answer the

following question for me: Assuming that there

 

 

 
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was someone else who had done the same work

that Mr. Armstrong had done in the archives

and you had the same abilities -- since I know

you have a high regard for his abilities --

then, I assume, that in that eventuality that you

could have written a similar --

"A Yes.

"Q -- work?

"A Yes, Obviously.

"Q Now, you mentioned -- let me do

another thing first. You mentioned something,

and I ask this question because it was asked,

and I don't believe it's admissible, but in the

event that it is, I do have some followup

questions on it.

"You gave what you considered an instance" --

MR. LITT: Well, that was stricken. Your Honor. This

is redirect on things that the court struck.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. LITT: We would go over --

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, as I understand what the

court struck were representations or misrepresentations

that had been made about Mr. Hubbard's background. This

goes to state of mind as to his knowledge of harassment

by the B-1 Bureau.

THE COURT: I am not going to get into it at this

time. Let's just go on with this and get it over with.

We are approaching the end of it.

 

 

 
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MR. LITT: We go to page 150.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. LITT: (Reading):

"Q You mentioned that you read some

press reports about the event before Judge Cole

that mentioned 22 cartons of material, whatever.

"A Whatever.

"Q And that you had a discussion with

Mr. Armstrong, and he said that the only thing

that was sealed was legal material.

"A Material pertaining to the case, that

it was limited to the legal consideration.

"Q Are you aware that according to

Mr. Armstrong, the sole source of all those

documents is your materials?

"A Well, I'm aware of that, yes, and he

would have no other source so far as I know

of getting those materials except from those I had.

"Q Assuming that the description of

22 cartons of materials is accurate, did you have

any description that the volume of material had

been taken to you?"

MR. FLYNN: If I can object since we all know there

are only five cartons and not twenty-two cartons, and the

press misreported the fact that twenty-two cartons were

turned over to the court. I think all of this is misleading

without foundation based on a false statement.

THE COURT: Well, it is irrelevant. Consider it

is irrelevant and go on to line 14.

 

 

 
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MR. LITT: (Reading:)

"Q Are you aware that 5,000 pages

approximately of materials were provided to Mr.

Flynn -- that's by Mr. Armstrong's estimate --

from your materials?

"A No, I'm not aware of that.

"Q Was that volume of material that

you had understood that Mr. Armstrong needed

for his suit?

"A The volume was never discussed.

"Q Leaving aside --"

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor,/I would continue to object on

the same ground, that the 5,000 in the mind of the witness,

from what I understand, was that there were 22 cartons of

documents.

MR. LITT: It says "5,000 pages."

THE COURT: Let's not argue over this. Let's just go

on.

MR. LITT: (Reading:)

"Q Leaving aside whether it was

discussed or not -- I'm going to your state of

mind -- did you understand that that kind of

scope of material and volume of material was

what was needed by Mr. Armstrong?

"A No, I did not.

"Q Are you aware that aside from

that there are some thousands of more pages of

documents that were provided to

 

 

 
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Miss Dragojevic's firm, Contos & Bunch?

"A No, I am not aware of any of

that.

"Q Assuming that that's

accurate --and Mr. Armstrong has testified to

that effect -- were you aware that that volume

of material, in addition to what was given to

Mr. Flynn, was being taken by Mr. Armstrong

from you?

"A No. I don't know -- I have no

knowledge whatsoever of the volume of material

that you know -- I never did. As I said

before, I repeatedly asked what -- when I read

the account in the press, I was very much

alarmed because I thought, 'Here goes a

dissemination.' You never know what's going to

happen once -- even the court seals don't mean

too much as we saw in the case of Judge

Ritchie. One judge will seal it, and the other

unseals it.

"So I was very much concerned

about what was -- what was sealed up in the

courts, and I still don't know. I don't know

the volume. I don't know the contents. I

never was able to find out."

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, from here to the end,

based on the 22 cartons, plus thousands of more pages to

Contos & Bunch -- All of this is totally irrelevant.

 

 

 

 
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MR. LITT: Your Honor, I have read in deposition

testimony from Mr. Armstrong that corroborates these

assumptions.

MR. FLYNN: The witness is under the impression it is

22 cartons, plus another eight to ten thousand --

THE COURT: We could read this while you are arguing

about it. Let's just finish it and chalk it up to

experience. Let's go ahead.

MR. LITT: (Reading:)

"Q Did you ask Mr. Armstrong?

"A I did, yes. He didn't -- I

wasn't sure that he knew.

"Q Can you explain that?

"A Well, he didn't -- I don't think

he personally delivered it to the court, as I

understand it. I don't think he delivered the

documents to the court.

"Q But it was your understanding

that he had delivered it to the attorneys;

right?

"A Yes, but I don't know how much --

I have no idea what he delivered to the

attorneys.

"Q Now -- and, frankly, this is not

going to be a question that is going to be easy

for you to answer because I know you are fond

of Mr. Armstrong; I know you don't want to do

anything to harm Mr. Armstrong. At the same

 

 

 
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time I'm going to ask you for a frank answer on

this.

"In all sincerity, did you have

any idea -- assuming that the description I

have given you is accurate, that there were 8

to 10,000 pages, did you have any idea that

Mr. Armstrong, was taking that amount of

materials from you?

"A I had no such idea and I haven't

now. I'm not aware of it at all.

"Q Was it your intention, in

discussing with Mr. Armstrong your making

available to him materials that were needed to

provide that kind of scope of materials?

"A No, it was not."

MR. LITT: Mr. Flynn.

MR. FLYNN: I have nothing further.

MR. LITT: I have nothing further if Mr. Flynn

doesn't.

MR. FLYNN: Having spoken to the witness, I believe he

was under the impression 22 cartons of materials were turned

over, which, as we know, is totally false.

MR. LITT: Mr. Flynn doesn't want an answer read into

the record asked by his co-counsel.

MR. FLYNN: I intend to bring Mr. Garrison in --

THE COURT: All right. You want to read something, go

ahead, Mr. Litt.

MR. PETERSON: Give me a page and line.

 

 

 
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MR. LITT: Well, I will just finish reading the

deposition. It is probably easier.

Actually, the only thing remaining that I am

interested in, if the court will go to page 155, beginning

at line 10. This is a question asked by Miss Dragojevic.

(Reading:)

"Q I believe that you testified

earlier that with respect to the documents you

would have given Mr. Armstrong whatever was

necessary to his legal defense so long as it

remained within the legal arena; is that correct?

"A Yes.

"Q Would you have denied Mr. Armstrong

access to 8 to 10,000 pages of documentation

had he specifically told you the amount?

"A Yes, I would.

"Q Why is that?

"A Because I would -- I feared for

their passing into Mr. Flynn's hands. I

trusted Mr. Armstrong. I didn't trust Mr.

Flynn."

That is the only remaining thing I have.

MR. FLYNN: I will read the last one, Your Honor,

line 24.

(Reading:)

"I believe you testified earlier

that you had no evidence to indicate that the

 

 

 

 
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documents had actually gone beyond the legal

arena.

"A No, I have no such evidence."

THE COURT: Okay. Let's take a 15-minute

recess.

(Recess.)

 

 

 
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THE COURT: All right. Let the record show that we

are back in session. Counsel are all present.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I have an issue I'd like to

raise at this time with the court, and that is the

settlement agreement that was referred to of which a public

statement of the settlement agreement has now been marked as

an exhibit.

Obviously the settlement agreement relates to

who owns or who has the right to possess documents that are

at issue in this case because under the agreement with

Mr. Garrison and his testimony specifically at page 56 of

the deposition, it was his understanding pursuant to that

agreement, the settlement agreement, that he was to return

the documents to the Church of Scientology International

which is not a party to this lawsuit.

Now, one of the theories of our defense is that

for there to be a conversion, there had to be a conversion,

the plaintiff or the intervenor had to have a right to

possession at the time of conversion, and we believe that up

until at least the summer of 1983, the only one who had the

right to possess the documents were Mr. Armstrong pursuant

to his contract with Mr. Hubbard and Mr. Garrison pursuant

to his contract with PUBS DK. Therefore, the settlement

agreement would be relevant to show what Mr. Armstrong's

rights are with respect to who owns or has the right to

possess the documents as of the summer of 1983.

Similarly, the contract between PUBS DK and

L. Ron Hubbard might also address the issue of the documents

 

 

 
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since they are not addressed as Mr. Garrison testified in

the contract between him and PUBS DK, so we'd similarly like

to have the opportunity to see the agreement and see the

settlement agreement to determine whether it might be

relevant to the defense of the case.

THE COURT: What page are you referring to?

MR. FLYNN: Page 56, Your Honor, line 14 through

line 21.

In fact, he even refers to the agreement, but we

don't even know what he is referring to.

MR. LITT: He refers to exhibit 22, Your Honor, which

was expressly written to be a public statement of the

agreement that explains all the relevant facts which is that

Mr. Garrison entered into an agreement with New Era

Publications, the successor to PUBS DK, to return the

documents to the custody of the Church of Scientology

International.

As to the arrangements made between the various

Churches of Scientology, that is irrelevant. This case was

brought by the party that had provided the materials to

Mr. Garrison, or at least that Mr. Armstrong had gotten them

from. The contents are confidential, and the only relevance

as to what is contained in that statement is that Mr. Garrison

makes no claims to the documents, and it is a confidential

agreement and it is not relevant.

THE COURT: Well, I don't really see that it sheds any

light on anything here. Mr. Hubbard, through his letter,

has requested that any documents be turned over to the

 

 

 
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Church International. That was in February of '83.

The fact that there was a settlement is

something that might go to the matter of bias or prejudice,

I suppose, when the witness is testifying, but precise

details seem to me to be irrelevant.

MR. FLYNN: For example, suppose the settlement

agreement says that Mary Sue Hubbard is to have no access to

the materials. That would totally defeat her interests.

THE COURT: I don't really see how that would be

binding upon her. Unless she was a party to the agreement,

she'd have her own rights. People can make their own

agreements as between themselves, but they are not binding

upon third parties who are not a party to the agreement. If

she has rights in those documents and she wants to assert

them, hypothetically she could do so.

MR. FLYNN: Suppose the agreement says that L. Ron

Hubbard owns the documents and has the right to possess

them. That would fulfill the contract that Mr. Armstrong

had with him.

We are operating completely in the dark as to

what these documents say. They could be vital to the

defense.

THE COURT: Oh, I don't think there is a good enough

showing at this point that there is any necessity for that,

so I will deny the motion.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, if I may just clarify one point

that the court made.

Actually Mr. Hubbard says in his letter, we will

 

 

 
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argue this later I suppose, that the materials be returned

to the church, and he sent a copy to the Church of

Scientology International, which is the mother church as of

now, but not the church that had the original custody of the

documents. So we just want to have that clear because

Mr. Flynn is going to argue that the Church of Scientology

International is not a party to this agreement, and the

Church of Scientology of California is, and therefore

Mr. Hubbard's statement is returned to the Church of

Scientology International. His statement is to the church

with a carbon copy to the Church of Scientology

International. I just want to clear that up factually.

THE COURT: I don't think it is necessary to dwell on

that particular problem at the moment.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, we would move into evidence

exhibit 22.

THE COURT: Any objection, counsel?

MR. FLYNN: Well, only, Your Honor, that it is a

public statement of a contract which now you are making

relevant to the issues in the lawsuit, and we don't know

what the contract is.

THE COURT: We do know what the settlement agreement

says on its face.

I will overrule the objection. Be received for

whatever value it may have.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, we would like to inquire

whether the defendant is prepared to stipulate that other

than the instant suit which was filed on August 3, 1982 he

 

 

 
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has not been sued in any court by any Church of Scientology,

by L. Ron Hubbard or by Mary Sue Hubbard? We will present

testimony --

THE COURT: I suppose you could call him and ask him that.

MR. LITT: Well, we can present it through

Mr. Peterson who knows, but we can stipulate to it and save

time.

THE COURT: An offer to stipulate. Do you want to

enter into the stipulation on that?

MR. FLYNN: I'd first raise the relevance of it, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: Well --

 

 

 
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MR. LITT: This goes to the question of whether or

not when Mr. Armstrong took these materials he was a

defendant and was taking them for any case in which he was

a defendant.

MR. FLYNN: We will stipulate to it, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. LITT: We rest, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. The case is with the defense.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, at this point we would

move for a nonsuit and/or directed verdict.

And I would like to submit a little bit of

argument on it, if I could.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, we believe that the evidence

shows that Mr. Armstrong was authorized by L. Ron Hubbard

or his representative to collect documents for the biography.

In fact, there is no evidence of any nature

or description which rebuts the evidence that L. Ron Hubbard

or a representative messenger authorized him to collect

the documents.

There were, in that authorization, no limitations

placed on the circumstances under he could collect

documents. He was, in effect, either an agent or an independent

contractor working for L. Ron Hubbard, where there was no

supervision over his day-to-day activities in terms of

what he did in connection with the collection of the documents.

It was understood and agreed by everyone that

in this collection process he could bring the documents to

 

 

 
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Omar Garrison for purposes of the writing of a biography.

The contract, which we believe is the

underlying document in the case, places no limitation on

what Mr. Garrison could do with the documents. And, in fact,

there is specific evidence, which we have just read, that

he allowed Mr. Armstrong to use the documents in the legal

arena. There is no evidence that Mr. Armstrong violated

that trust or that agreement between he and Mr. Garrison.

Namely, that the documents were used outside the legal arena.

There is no evidence that Mr. Garrison placed

any restriction on the manner in which Mr. Armstrong

collected the documents during the period of time that he

was working for L. Ron Hubbard up to December, 1981, per

the testimony of Mrs. Hubbard and other representatives of

the church, and there is no evidence that Mary Sue Hubbard

communicated any restriction to Gerald Armstrong about the

specifics of where he could and could not collect documents.

No evidence whatsoever.

In fact, the evidence of Mary Sue Hubbard was

that she didn't communicate with Gerald Armstrong. So,

in effect, the court has a situation where Mr. Armstrong

is engaged by L. Ron Hubbard, or a messenger acting on his

behalf, to collect documents from no restricted sources.

There is no other source inside the organization that

restricts him. In fact, the testimony is precisely the

opposite. The testimony of Mr. Vorm was that he gave

him permission to have the documents from the so-called

control of his archives.

 

 

 
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Therefore, I submit to the court that there is

no evidence of any nature or description that up to the

time of the settlement agreed to in the summer of 1983

Gerald Armstrong did not have the right to possess the

documents per his agreement with L. Ron Hubbard. Mr. Hubbard,

in fact, to date -- no one has heard from Mr. Hubbard. In

fact, exhibit 1 doesn't even state whether or not Gerald

Armstrong couldn't have copies of the documents.

There is no evidence that Omar Garrison -- And

I specifically asked Mr. Peterson this question. There was

no evidence that Omar Garrison was asked to return any

documents until he entered into the settlement agreement,

which has been a public statement, which has been marked

as exhibit 22.

The underlying contractual arrangement between

Gerald Armstrong and L. Ron Hubbard and Omar Garrison and

PUBS DK, which is also not a party to this action, permitted

both Mr. Garrison and Mr. Armstrong to have these documents.

Therefore, under the law of California, the

plaintiff and the intervenor had the burden of proving that

at the time they brought this lawsuit they had a right to

possess the documents or at the time of the alleged

conversion they had the right to possess the documents.

The allegations of Mrs. Hubbard, as I understand

it, are that when the documents were given to me, Mr. Armstrong's

lawyer, the invasion of privacy and the intrusion took

place. Well, I submit, Your Honor, that there is no evidence

that either the plaintiff or the intervenor had the right

 

 

 
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to possess the documents at that time. In fact, the evidence

is precisely the opposite.

Therefore in the conversion counts, under the

law of California, I submit that the plaintiff and the

intervenor should be nonsuited and/or a directed verdict

should be entered in favor of Mr. Armstrong with respect

to those counts.

Also, with respect to the conversion counts,

we submit that the only way that the court could frame

relief in this action with respect to these documents is

for Mr. Hubbard to have been a party and to have appeared

and to have explained to the court and made claims in this

proceeding as to what his contractual rights were under the

contract.

There are several California cases, which

I will briefly mention to the court, which we feel are

specifically relevant to this case.

One is Bank of The Orient v. San Francisco

Federal Savings & Loan, 136 Trial Reporter at 731.

In that case there was a partial assignment

of contractual rights between several parties. And the

contractual rights basically -- or the assignment basically

arose in the following context:

A bank manager apparently stole or embezzled

funds, and we will call him the bank manager of Bank A.

He then went to his own bank, Bank B, and deposited checks

which he had used to embezzle the funds from Bank A. Bank A

thereafter, pursuant to an insurance contract that it had,

 

 

 
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paid off the claim of Bank B, when Bank B subsequently lost

the funds because it had wrongfully deposited them. The

issue became whether or not Bank A, after it had assigned

its rights pursuant to its insurance contract -- but then

brought a separate action -- needed to bring in as a party

the insurance carrier to which it had assigned its rights.

And it failed to do so.

And the court dismissed the action, and it

relied on, in part, this U-Tex case, a copy of which I have

provided to the court, where the failure to join an indispensable

party was brought up for the first time in appeal. It

wasn't even raised at the trial level, as we have here.

And the court held that where there has been a partial

assignment of contractual rights all parties claiming an

interest in the assignment must be joined as plaintiff's in

the action involving those rights, since they were indispensable

parties and since without them the court lacks jurisdiction.

 

 

 
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Now, you have a situation here where right in

the middle of this litigation the contractual rights with

regard to the possession of these documents in the hands or

Omar Garrison, from whom Mr. Armstrong received them, gave

them back, apparently, to an organization called New Era

Publications pursuant to the settlement agreement public

statement which is marked as exhibit 22; New Era

Publications is not even a party to this action, and it

apparently received an assignment of all the rights of

PUBS DK.

Assuming that the real party in interest in this

case is really L. Ron Hubbard, there is no indication that

L. Ron Hubbard approved of such an assignment. As we know,

under the original agreement he had to approve the final

biography, and apparently from what Mr. Garrison has

testified, there was a completed manuscript. There is no

evidence that Mr. Hubbard even considered that manuscript to

determine whether it was approved.

So, I submit to the court that this New Era

Publications, which is apparently, from the little evidence

we know, been assigned the contractual rights under

Garrison's contract is not a party to the action, and

therefore the conversion counts should be dismissed because

that corporation, whichever it is, under the case law that I

have just cited is an indispensible party.

Secondly, there is no provision in the contract

that limited Omar Garrison from disseminating the documents

to anyone. In fact, if there had been such a provision, if

 

 

 
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a provision was written into the contract that if Omar

Garrison found in the documents matters that indicated that

L. Ron Hubbard had engaged in fraudulent representations

over many years or engaged in other criminal acts, if such a

clause had been put in under the case of Brown versus

Freese, F-r-e-e-s-e, 28 Cal.App.2d 608, the contract would

have been void as against public policy.

Also, under the case of Allen versus Jordanos,

also relying on the Restatement of Contracts, if such a

clause had been put in the contract, it would have been void

as against public policy. The Allen versus Jordanos is

53 Cal.App.3d at 162.

So, I submit to the court that you have a

situation where the underlying burden that the plaintiff and

the intervenor have in this case to prove its conversion

count relates to something that goes to the right of

possession of these materials at certain critical points in

time. Those critical points in time are when the documents

were turned over to me because that is their claim when the

conversion took place, and under the contract the only one

who had the right to possess the documents at the time was

either Gerald Armstrong or Omar Garrison.

If a clause had been put in the contract that

once Omar Garrison found discreditable information and then

disseminated it and that terminated the contract, that

clause would have been unenforceable which would have

continued the right to possession per the fact that

Mr. Hubbard is the individual who originally authorized the

 

 

 
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collection of the documents. It would have continued the

right to possession in Mr. Armstrong until such time as

Mr. Hubbard came forward and entered into a different

contractual arrangement either with Mr. Armstrong or with

Omar Garrison which was never done. For that reason, Your

Honor, we think the conversion counts of both parties should

be dismissed.

With regard to the breach of fiduciary duty

count, the fiduciary duty was owed to L. Ron Hubbard if it

was owed to anyone because it was L. Ron Hubbard that

Mr. Armstrong entered into the agreement with. In fact, the

evidence has only been that there were no restrictions on

the documents. That Mary Sue Hubbard, although she now

claims there are restrictions, and I will admit on the

witness stand she claims that in her mind she put

restrictions in the documents, but she certainly never

communicated them to Mr. Armstrong, number one, and number

two, the party with whom Mr. Armstrong contracted was not

Mary Sue Hubbard. It was with her husband, L. Ron Hubbard,

and he never placed any restrictions on the documents nor

did the organizational representative, Mr. Vorm, who

testified precisely the opposite that he gave the documents

to Mr. Armstrong and he got authority from his

organizational senior.

So, I submit, Your Honor, that there is no

evidence at all of any fiduciary responsibility between

Mr. Armstrong and the Church of Scientology of California.

Therefore, there is no evidence that he could have breached

 

 

 
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any.

With regard to Mary Sue Hubbard, there is

absolutely no indication in the record. In fact, Mary Sue

Hubbard testified she never spoke to Gerald Armstrong.

Never communicated anything to him, so there was obviously

not fiduciary duty or relationship that existed between the

two of them.

With regard to the invasion of privacy count of

Mary Sue Hubbard, as I understand it, the claim is that the

intrusion took place without publication, but simply the

fact of an intrusion with the documents were turned over to

me, although I must confess I don't presently understand the

intervenor's allegations nor do I believe that there is any

evidence whatsoever to support the fact that there can be an

intrusion where documents have been given consentually, and

where documents have been given pursuant to a contract, and

where another party comes forward; namely, Mary Sue Hubbard

and claims that her privacy rights have been invaded upon

when her husband has appointed someone to collect up the

documents and give them to Omar Garrison and then Omar

Garrison, who enters into a contract with a third party

corporation which places no restrictions on the documents,

gives them to Mr. Armstrong, which once the defense of this

case begins will show that he was entirely justified, in

fact, shockingly justified in doing what he did.

But in any event, if the theory of the case is

that there's been an intrusion, then I submit there can be

no intrusion where there's been consent and that consent

 

 

 
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flowed from L. Ron Hubbard, and it, for all intents and

purposes based on the evidence that has been presented in

this case, the consent continues right up to the present

time.

Assuming that exhibit 1 only relates to the

state of mind of L. Ron Hubbard under Section 1250 of the

Evidence Code as of February 1983, not to the truth of the

matter asserted in it, there is no indication that L. Ron

Hubbard has terminated his rights in the original contract

that was made with Garrison, no evidence whatsoever.

Therefore, I submit to the court that as long as

the court is confronted with a situation where the only

evidence in the case is that Mr. Armstrong came into the

documents consentually, there can be no intrusion.

I don't believe there was any evidence

introduced of publication with with regard to a claimed

invasion of privacy. If there is an allegation of

publication, and I submit that the only testimony at all was

from Mrs. Hubbard and I asked her very specifically as to

what the circumstances were under which she claimed that

Mr. Armstrong stole the materials, and she said she didn't

know. And I asked her specifically what he did with them,

and she said she didn't know other than give them to me, and

I, as his attorney, had placed them under seal in this

court.

So not only do I think that there is any claim f

publication, if they are claiming that, there is no evidence

of publication.

 

 

 
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For the court to find that publication was

made to an attorney in the context of Mr. Armstrong, per

the testimony of Mr. Peterson, retaining counsel to represent

him after Mr. Peterson sent the letters to him, then I

submit to the court that at that critical point in time

Mr. Armstrong giving documents to a lawyer, after a lawyer

from the church has contacted Mr. Armstrong, and after he

has been told, per the testimony of Mr. Garrison, to get

a lawyer, would not under the law constitute an intrusion.

In fact, all it would be is Mr. Armstrong doing precisely

what he was told by the organization; namely, to get a

lawyer.

So I don't believe that under the law of

any state, or under federal law, the fact that an individual

gives documents to his lawyer to defend himself, which

became the subject of a lawsuit, can constitute invasion of

privacy.

For all of those reasons, Your Honor, I believe

that a conversion, the invasion of privacy, and the breach

of fiduciary duty counts should all go out. And that the

balance of the case should only go forward on the issue of

equitable issues, where there is a claimed declaratory and

injunctive relief with regard to what should be done with

the documents.

Thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Litt.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I will argue if the court

feels -- Frankly, I think it is clear that there is no

 

 

 
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nonsuit here, and I am prepared to argue it. I don't want

to unnecessarily take up the court's time.

Let's start with what the actual facts that

have been shown are.

There is no showing of a contract, Your

Honor. There is no contract between Mr. Armstrong and

L. Ron Hubbard, and certainly to the extent that one can

argue it is a contract it is merely that -- an argument.

The evidence is that Mr. Armstrong, a

Church of Scientology of California employee, petitioned

Mr. Hubbard and got some response in connection to gathering

up materials about Mr. Hubbard. No mention of Mr. Hubbard's

private materials. But he is appointed to this post, and

somebody who signs the document or whatever that comes back

said, "Okay."

The testimony that the court has heard about

Mr. Hubbard's reverence within the church and whatever clearly

means that the fact that somebody communicates with

Mr. Hubbard, who is an employee of the church, inquiring

of him for his approval to hold a particular post, approval

which is ecclesiastical approval -- the idea that they become

a personal agent of L. Ron Hubbard and that they have

entered into a contract with L. Ron Hubbard is, I would

suggest, fanciful on its face, and certainly the evidence

that has been presented here doesn't support that.

Mr. Armstrong said that he was on a Scientology

post. Mr. Armstrong admitted that he could have been

removed by a senior other than Mr. Hubbard from his post.

 

 

   
 
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We introduced records showing that he had

been paid by the church on that post, he expended church

moneys to go out and buy materials for the archives. The

archives were private and confidential. He testified that

he had use of them solely for gathering up the archives and

providing them to Mr. Garrison; that they were provided

to Mr. Garrison on a confidential basis. That is his

understanding; they were provided to Mr. Garrison solely

for use in the biography. That was his understanding.

First, actually, what is Gerald Armstrong's

position? The evidence is quite clear. Gerald Armstrong

is a church employee. He gets posted to a certain position.

That position affects the interest of L. Ron Hubbard, the

founder of Scientology, therefore is of particular concern

to the church, of course, but he is on a church post, he

is on a Scientology post, he is being paid by the church,

he is expending moneys of that church.

The church, Mrs. Hubbard testified, had been

entrusted with certain materials. The church is a bailee.

A bailee has the right, in the absence of the claim of the

actual owner, the superior claim of the actual owner, to

protect the bailment.

So, therefore, the archives themselves are

gathered up with the church as the bailee, for use in

building up an archives, which includes, for whatever set

of reasons, gathering up private materials of Mr. and Mrs.

Hubbard, materials that Mrs. Hubbard herself had packed up

some 20 years before. Mixed materials of their marriage.

 

 

 
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Now, I think there is absolutely no basis for

arguing in this record -- and if there is a basis for

arguing it, it is certainly not a basis for a directed

verdict -- that there is any contract.

All the evidence, including the evidence from

Mr. Armstrong, is, in fact, that he was on a church position,

just like hundreds or thousands or perhaps tens of thousands

of individuals.

Then Mr. Armstrong provides these materials

to Mr. Garrison for work on the biography; he provides

originals. The court has seen some originals. When the

court takes a look at the materials, the court will see a

large number of originals, which he is not supposed to do

because they are originals. He is supposed to be providing

copies. But he provides originals. He gives them to

Mr. Garrison solely for use on the biography.

He says, in his own words, that what happened

later with respect to him taking it is a whole different

thing. So when he gives them to Mr. Garrison he is acting

as a church agent he gives them to Mr. Garrison for one

purpose.

Furthermore, Mr. Garrison testifies, "Yes,

they were very, very private, I considered them confidential,

I had a 10-year working relationship with the church. It

wasn't even a subject that had to be discussed, it was just

assumed that I would not provide them to anyone else."

So what we have is we have a situation in

which the private papers of primarily L. Ron Hubbard and

 

 

 
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in part of Mary Sue Hubbard have been gathered up by the

church because of Mr. Hubbard's reverence by the church.

They are provided through the church, whether properly or not

we don't really need to really resolve at this point, through

Mr. Armstrong -- they are provided to Mr. Garrison. Whether

Mr. Hubbard knew about that or Mrs. Hubbard knew about that,

for purposes of this case, is not dispositive, because

regardless of whether either of them knew about it there

was a very limited purpose. That purpose had controls on

it which insured that the confidentiality would not be

violated because the contract required final approval, and

the contract had a privacy clause, the contract between

PUB DK and Omar Garrison.

That contract says that PUB DK will provide

a research assistant. Omar Garrison says it is his

understanding that Gerald Armstrong is the research assistant

provided pursuant to the contract.

In the records is a communication from

PUBS DK to the Church of Scientology saying, "Please appoint

an assistant," and there are board minutes doing so.

Mr. Armstrong is acting as a Church of Scientology

of California representative who may have some permission

of some vague sort, because it is quite vague -- this

petition is quite vague -- from Mr. Hubbard, and I emphasize

"may" because Mrs. Hubbard said she doubted it, to act in

this church post. And the confidentiality of all of this

material is assumed.

What happens is Mr. Armstrong takes advantage

 

 

 
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of his relationship with Mr. Garrison. He goes to

Mr. Garrison at one point, after some disputes with the

church, in which he had not been sued, and when all of the

evidence is out -- if we are going to discuss this photo

incident, the way it has been characterized, and Mr. Armstrong

has had his photos -- if we are going to discuss what is

not in evidence yet -- Mr. Armstrong goes to Mr. Garrison

knowing that he no longer is acting on behalf of the church.

They claim that he continues to act as agent for L. Ron Hubbard,

when he is antagonistic to L. Ron Hubbard, when he is

attacking L. Ron Hubbard, when he wants nothing to do with

L. Ron Hubbard. I would suggest it is a relative difficult

claim to even listen to. It is just -- a generous description

is disingenious of any argument that there was a continuing

contract that went beyond the time that he left the church.

 

 

 
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So he goes back, having now no authorization

whatsoever, supposedly -- and I will even assume for the

purposes of my argument Mr. Garrison is having him help on

the biography. However, Mr. Garrison stops in May 1982.

Mr. Garrison even says he is not really working under the

contract anymore. So there is a question as to whether or

not Mr. Garrison has any right to deal with him. But more

importantly he gave the documents to Gerry Armstrong, having

nothing to do with the work on the biography. He said that

in his deposition. He gave the documents to Gerry Armstrong

because Gerry Armstrong said "I need them for my legal

defense of a lawsuit that doesn't exist," and Mr. Armstrong

has admitted that that was not what the documents were used

for. He has admitted he gave them to Mr. Flynn for use in

other cases. That was a request to admit. Cases other than

this case.

The private materials were provided by

Mr. Armstrong to Mr. Flynn to use them, and when the full

evidence is in we will see to what extent and how they have

been used. But the evidence is he gave them, he went and

got them, knowing that he had no right to them, knowing that

they were private, knowing that they were confidential.

 

 

 
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He was not entitled to take them for his own

case, even if that was the situation. That is what court

process is for, but he didn't even only take it for his own

case by his own admission and his own testimony, he took it

to use in other cases. He agreed to become a witness for

Mr. Flynn in other cases.

So that the claim that there is no basis --

certainly in this context without some justification that I

suppose they will try to make in their defense that you can

go take someone's papers because you think you need them for

your lawsuit, you can't do that.

Now, then, those are the facts. Those are the

facts even after cross-examination. Those are the only

possible inferences.

Then, the question becomes well, what is the law

in relationship to those facts. Well, original materials

were taken. Mr. Armstrong had what now appears to be quite

literally hundreds of original materials of substantial

economic value which he took, which he didn't have a right

to take, which weren't supposed to be taken out of the

archives at all.

He takes them and he holds them and gives them

to these lawyers. He makes copies of a variety of private

materials. Mrs. Hubbard has identified large amounts of

private materials.

The first time he went to see Mr. Flynn what did

he take with him? A document which you have not seen

identified as part of the defense in his case, a very

 

 

 
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private letter from Mary Sue Hubbard to L. Ron Hubbard in

the 1950s. I didn't see that marked as part of the alleged

proof of anything. That is the first thing, the first item

that he takes to Mr. Flynn.

That by itself, that alone, leave aside

everything else we have heard, establishes invasion of

privacy. All you need in California for an invasion of

privacy or for a breach of confidence is that you have

confidential information that you know it is for one purpose

and you use it for another purpose. You give it to any

single party not entitled to have it, and you use it for any

purpose not within the terms under which you were given it.

The terms under which it was given were quite clear. They

are admissions from Mr. Armstrong. We don't even have to

introduce other evidence on that. He said it himself.

The invasion of privacy is clear. The

conversion is clear. Even if you would accept the notion,

which we do not, that making copies of materials is not

conversion. The evidence has established and all the court

has to do is to take the view that we have asked it to take

that there are numerous originals. Mr. Armstrong had them.

They got turned in to the court when they were supposed to

be returned. They had come from the archives. That sure

sounds like pretty straight-forward conversion to me.

The last is breach of fiduciary duty. All that

is needed for a breach of fiduciary duty is that one have an

obligation. That obligation continues after employment, and

that one breached that obligation. Here the obligation was

 

 

 
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quite clear. Mr. Armstrong was given access to

extraordinarily private and confidential information. When

he was given it, he considered that there were extreme

limitations on it. He considered that he was only given it

for limited purposes.

 

 

 
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In fact, we introduced deposition testimony

about how carefully at the time he maintained the security

of these materials, about how confidential they were, about

how they were kept. Very few people had keys and quote,

Hubbard archives were kept under locked file cabinets and

all of the security measures taken by Mr. Armstrong,

himself.

He then goes out. No longer in the church,

antagonistic to Mr. Hubbard, to Mrs. Hubbard and to the

church, and he takes these materials and he distributes them

for use in cases to Mr. Flynn. He gives them to Mr. Flynn

apparently to use in his own case, which is a violation of

his fiduciary duty on this record because he has no right to

do so.

I don't have the right if I am going to be in a

dispute with my former employer to go in and take their

records. If I am entitled to them, and there is a lawsuit,

that is what court process is all about. The law does not

condone self-help, but that is not even it. That, by

itself, is a breach of his obligation of confidentiality.

But what happens is that, in fact, he gets them

not only for his own purported suit because he had no

lawsuit at the time, and when asked what he was going to be

sued for, he said he didn't know. He also gives them for

use in other suits to Mr. Flynn, to Mr. Flynn to use,

knowing that Mr. Flynn has suits against L. Ron Hubbard,

Mary Sue Hubbard and the Church of Scientology, so that he

can use them, and he is a witness for Mr. Flynn in those

 

 

 
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suits to use this confidential information against the

Hubbards and against the church.

That is as straight-forward a breach of

fiduciary duty as one can get. I would suggest even

communicating the information in his head is a breach of

fiduciary duty, but taking documents which he had no right

to is a breach of fiduciary duty clearly.

Mr. Flynn has suggested to the court something

about whether or not a limitation on this contract would be

in violation of public policy. Mr. Flynn is trying to ague

in that respect through the back door.

Now, let me speak to what is perhaps the only

issue that still perhaps needs to be dealt with, and that is

the terms of the contract. The contract is, it is true, by

its terms silent with respect to what happens, what the

terms of providing materials are. Since it is silent, the

practice of the parties, which Mr. Garrison testified to at

length, and the understanding and practice of those carrying

out the activities in relationship to it, are the guiding

evidence. And on that score all the evidence is that the

practice was to maintain the confidentiality, the

understanding was provided for only a limited purpose,

confidential, private and on and on and on.

From Garrison, from Armstrong and from anybody

else we have here there's been nothing, nothing to the

contrary, and to argue that because the contract doesn't

specify that somehow means that you can take someone's

private materials when you have had a practice and you have

 

 

 
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had an understanding with all involved that you will

maintain them privately and give them out is clearly not the

law. The contract cannot be interpreted that way.

So that whatever the justification issue may be

with respect to whether or not Mr. Armstrong has engaged in

acts which give rise to liability under the theories that

have been advanced in our complaint, technically because I

am not arguing all the evidence now in the context of a non-

suit, I think that there is no question about that fact. We

have made out all of the necessary elements. We have

provided ample facts to support them. I would suggest we

have provided overwhelming facts to support them, and it is

time for Mr. Armstrong to show whether he can, in fact,

justify any of this wrongful conduct that he engaged in.

 

 

 
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THE COURT: Mr. Harris, did you want to add anything?

MR. HARRIS: No, Your Honor, submitted.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, could I just make a very

few brief points?

THE COURT: All right.

MR. FLYNN: Very briefly.

The private letter that Mr. Litt referred to

by his own admission was not admitted into evidence, so

we have no idea what it is, and the extent of the testimony

was that Mr. Litt believes it was shown to me, Mr. Armstrong's

lawyer.

With regard to using the documents in other

litigation, while this court has permitted that per the

terms of the preliminary injunction, number one.

Mr. Peterson testified that he couldn't

identify a single document that was used in other litigation.

With regard to the argument that Mr. Armstrong

is an employee who took documents from his employer and

then attempts to use them against the employer, Mr. Litt

has got his facts based on the evidence that's been

introduced wrong. The evidence is that Mr. Armstrong had

the documents consentually from Mr. Garrison and from

L. Ron Hubbard, and that he had them consentually right

up to the time that the lawsuit was brought.

I would submit on that point what the church

has basically done and what Mary Sue Hubbard has done is

they have dumped the gun, Your Honor. If they wanted the

documents that were in Mr. Armstrong's possession and/or

 

 

 
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Mr. Garrison's possession, then they should have simply

sought equitable relief because at that point all Mr. Armstrong

had done is sought legal counsel based upon the church

telling him to go get a lawyer after they had stolen his

photographs. That is the extent of the evidence, so I

submit that basically what they did is they brought their

tort causes of action before they had them.

If Mr. Armstrong had gone out, for example,

and tried to write a book based on these materials, then a

different argument might obtain, but I think that if all they

sought back were the materials, they simply should have

sought equitable relief rather than bringing these various

causes of action when all Mr. Armstrong had done was give

these documents to his lawyers to defend himself.

THE COURT: Well, of course, the issue really is

whether or not this, being a court trial, whether the plaintiff

has established by a preponderance of the evidence all the

facts necessary to support their claims for damages upon

the various theories that they have alleged in their complaint.

It is really a very simple case, at least on

the plaintiff's case. It appears to me that the plaintiff

has preponderated as to whether or not Mr. Armstrong was

an employee of the plaintiff church, and it appears to me

that while there isn't any permanent deprivation, there is

withholding of property and use of the property outside the

scope of what the original purposes were, which he was

entrusted with the property, and it seems to me that is

really all you need to have, assuming that there is damage

 

 

 
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also as a proximate result to establish the plaintiff's

case.

They conversion of property does have value

and there is been testimony. Whether it is all of the

testimony to be presented, I don't know. But there are

documents that are under seal that the church does not have

copies of in their archives.

 

 

 
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There has been a withholding of originals of

value, and so that would support the conversion theory, and

the breach of fiduciary duty, breach of confidence,

essentially misuse of the property that would be entrusted

to an employee or fiduciary. And the invasion of privacy is

a little different; it doesn't fit into the usual category

of publication of private matters. More appropriately, it

probably comes under a number of the California

Constitutional Provisions that deal with the misuse of

property lawfully acquired.

Whether or not that also might be technically an

intrusion I don't know it is necessary to decide so I don't

propose to decide that.

It seems to me that the plaintiff has made out

his case at this point and the matter goes to whether or not

the defense that will be presented disestablishes or

demonstrates that there isn't a preponderance on any of

these issues or establishes a defense of privilege,

justification, so forth.

So the motion for judgment will be denied.

It is almost 4:00 o'clock, so we will recess

until 9:00 o'clock tomorrow morning, at which time the case

will be with the defense. Will you have witnesses available

ready to proceed?

MR. FLYNN: I will, Your Honor. Mr. Armstrong will be

our first witness and I anticipate he could probably be on

for several days on direct examination.

THE COURT: Okay.

 

 

 
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MR. LITT: Several days on direct alone?

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, what we have to do in order to

establish the defense of privilege is to show what

Mr. Armstrong's state of mind was, what he found the

documents --

THE COURT: We will just take it one step at a time,

one question at a time, one exhibit at a time.

MR. HARRIS: As a courtesy, we are having a daily

transcript. I don't know if Mr. Flynn is ordering it. It

seems to me -- I haven't seen Your Honor getting any. Would

there be any objection --

THE COURT: The reporters have provided copies to the

court.

MR. HARRIS: I just wanted to make sure that was so.

MR. LITT: We would make one other request. Mr. Flynn

submitted a 50-person or so witness list. Perhaps now our

case has been presented he could be of some assistance and

give us a list somewhat tailored down so we have some idea

what we are dealing with here.

MR. FLYNN: At this point I can give the court some

indication of who my witnesses are. I submit there will

probably be 10 or 15 10-minute witnesses, who will simply

say they are all members of the church for the last 10, 15

years, they all relied on the honesty, integrity, moral

character of L. Ron Hubbard when they joined and paid money,

et cetera, et cetera.

Other than that, there are some basic witnesses,

and I think they already know who they are, Laurel Sullivan,

 

 

 
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Gerald Armstrong, Omar Garrison, Bill Franks, the former

head of the church, Sherman Linsky, the lawyer who has been

mentioned, Eugene Denks, the physician of Mr. Hubbard. That

is about all I can think of off the top of my head; there

may be a few more.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. LITT: One last thing is that we did have an

agreement that with certain witnesses we would have advance

depositions and with others we would deal with it as we went

along. All I am asking at this point is Mr. Flynn give us

advance notice so the question of a deposition of Bill

Franks, who has been specifically designated as a person

whose deposition would be taken -- that those arrangements

could be made. It doesn't have to be done right now.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I also add Jim Dincalci, who

owned the photographs that were stolen from Mr. Armstrong

that started this whole thing. He will be a witness.

As far as making any of these people available

at this point for deposition testimony, we are in the middle

of the defense of our case, Your Honor. If we have to take

out time to attend depositions -- I have already been in

California for five weeks on this case --

THE COURT: There was some discussion about somebody

other than Laurel Sullivan --

MR. LITT: Bill Franks and Jim Dincalci specifically.

The court suggested we wait until the defense case and deal

with it then.

THE COURT: Where are they coming from?

 

 

 
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MR. FLYNN: Franks is coming from New York, and Jim

Dincalci is coming from four or five hundred miles from

here.

THE COURT: Maybe you could have them come Sunday

before Monday. You indicated Franks wasn't going to testify

to very much, was he? No, it was Dincalci.

MR. FLYNN: Franks is probably going to testify that

he, per the orders of L. Ron Hubbard, removed Mary Sue

Hubbard from her post.

Dincalci is going to testify the photographs

that were stolen were stolen from Gerald Armstrong, that

they were his photographs, and he is also going to testify

that he was with L. Ron Hubbard in 1973 while L. Ron Hubbard

was hiding from the French fraud case. And the sole basis

for him joining the organization and working for the

organization was the honesty, integrity, and moral character

of L. Ron Hubbard. It is that simple. If he had known what

was in the documents, then he would never have joined.

 

 

 
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MR. LITT: Your Honor, we should discuss at some point

this question of bringing people in, because we can bring

in a thousand for every one that Mr. Flynn brings in, if

that is what we are going to do in this case.

If we are going to play a numbers game,

Scientologists would flock to the opportunity to come into

this trial and testify about anything that could be said

about L. Ron Hubbard, and whether they are still Scientologists

and so if that is what this case is going to be we may be

here an awfully long time.

MR. FLYNN: That is not the issue. The issue is

whether or not the state of mind of Mr. Armstrong believed

that in his mind, in the minds of Scientologists, he knew

the honesty, integrity, and moral character, truth of the

representations of L. Ron Hubbard were in issue relating to

these documents, specifically as related to the SP Declare

accusing him of defamation.

THE COURT: I don't think it is necessary for me to

prematurely rule upon whether something is cumulative or

unnecessary or whatever. I think we will take one witness

at a time and see what happens.

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Your Honor.

MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Your Honor.

(At 3:53 p.m. an adjournment was taken

until Thursday, May 10, 1984, at

9:00 a.m.)

 

 

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