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FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DEPARTMENT NO. 57        HON. PAUL G. BRECKENRIDGE, JR., JUDGE

  (See Appearances page.)

VOLUME 6

Pages 813 - 995

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APPEARANCES:

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I N D E X

W I T N E S S E S

E X H I B I T S

[Missing Pages 813 - 844]

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BY MR. FLYNN:

Q Mrs. Hubbard, did you understand that Omar

Garrison was going to write a biography about your husband?

A I did.

Q When did you first learn that such a biography

was going to be written?

A You'll have to clarify your question because

there were different times that there were biographies going

to be done.

Q When did you first learn that a biography was

going to be written by Omar Garrison?

A It was proposed some time in the late '70's,

that we would -- in the Guardian's office that we would have

him write a biography at some point, yes.

Q Could you be more specific with regard to a

particular year?

A No, I can't. Late '70's.

Q Is there any particular date that you have in

mind when you feel that Omar Garrison was the one that

was chosen to do the biography?

A Well, I think as far as like a date in -- when

he was chosen, I am not exactly certain. But I feel it was

resolved when he did sign the contract that he would write

the book.

Q Your memory is that the contract was October,

1980, some time about there?

A Yes.

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Q Was it your understanding that it was going to

be a truthful biography?

A Yes.

Q And that the facts about your husband's life

recited in the biography would be accurate; was that your

understanding?

A Yes, without any invasion of privacy or that

sort of thing, yes.

Q What do you consider to be an invasion of

privacy?

A Personal matters that -- when people are

currently living that one doesn't go into, doesn't invade

their privacy.

Q What do you consider to be personal matters?

A I would consider the death of my son and the

autopsy report and the private detective investigation of

that to be a personal matter.

Q And in your view that would not be the proper

subject of biographical interest by Mr. Garrison; is that

correct?

A That is correct.

Q Did you tell Mr. Garrison that?

A I never had a communication. He never asked

me anything. I never had any communications except one

letter from him saying he would like to interview me.

I told him I am sorry, but I am busy. But

put any questions on tape and I would be glad to hear from

him. But I never heard from him.

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Q So you never placed any restriction on

Omar Garrison about putting materials in the biography

relating to the death of your son Quentin; is that correct?

A I didn't know he had the materials about the

death of my son Quentin. I didn't know anybody had gone

into storage and given these things out.

Q Do you know approximately how many pages of

material Omar Garrison had to write the biography of your

husband?

A I don't know, but there are thousands and

thousands of pages in these boxes that are over there.

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Q You have looked through those boxes?

A I have.

Q Did you ever obtain any understanding as to how

many pages of material Mr. Garrison had in addition to

what is in the boxes under seal?

A No.

Q If I suggest to you that the boxes under seal

represent less than two percent of the materials in the

possession of Omar Garrison about your husband, do you have

any knowledge of that type of percentage?

MR. LITT: Objection; calls for speculation. There

is no foundation. The witness said she doesn't know how

much.

THE COURT: Well, as phrased, it assumes facts not

in evidence. You can pose it as a hypothetical and it is

a proper question.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Let me ask you this, Mrs. Hubbard:

You knew that Gerald Armstrong was collecting materials,

did you not, to write the biography?

A Yes.

Q And you knew that Omar Garrison was using

the materials to write the biography; is that correct?

A I presume so, yes.

Q Did you ever communicate to Gerald Armstrong

any restrictions with regard to the collection of the

materials to write the biography?

A Yes.

Q When?

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A In a letter. I forget exactly when it was.

I asked him to ask me for any materials that he wished or

wanted to know about and then I would have to authorize them

to send them to him.

Q Do you recall the date of that letter?

A That was some time in February 1980.

Q And do you recall what restrictions you put on

Mr. Armstrong?

A Well he would have to request -- anyone wanting

to go into my personal storage would have to request me for

materials or anyone wanting materials from me would have to

request me first.

Q If I suggest to you that that letter was

dated February 11, 1980, does that refresh your memory at

all?

MR. LITT: Why can't the letter be shown to Mrs. Hubbard

and then we will not have to suggest.

Are you marking that, Mr. Flynn, or are you

just showing it to her?

MR. FLYNN: I am going to offer it.

MR. LITT: Perhaps it should be marked as an exhibit,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: What are we up to?

THE CLERK: D as in David.

THE COURT: All right, mark it as D for identification.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

MR. FLYNN: My understanding that has been marked in

evidence?

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THE COURT: Marked for identification.

Are you offering it in evidence?

MR. FLYNN: I am, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. LITT: Let me just take another look at it, Your

Honor. I don't think so.

No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right, be received.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: And that letter was in response

to a letter dated 5 February, 1980; is that correct,

Mrs. Hubbard?

A Yes, that is correct.

Q And you received that, did you not, at

some point prior to February 11, 1980?

A Yes, I did.

MR. HARRIS: Just so we can keep the record straight,

Your Honor, do you intend to mark the exhibit that she is

referring to as a piece of evidence, Mr. Flynn?

MR. FLYNN: I do, Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: May it be marked defendant's next in

order?

THE COURT: Are you talking about this two-page

letter of February 5?

MR. FLYNN: May that be marked as defendant's D.

THE CLERK: Is that a different one?

THE COURT: It is a different -- E as in easy.

MR. FLYNN: It is now my understanding they are both

marked, the 5th February --

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THE WITNESS: This one is marked D.

THE COURT: It is marked for identification. I

haven't received it in evidence.

MR. FLYNN: I am offering that, also.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. LITT: No objection.

THE COURT: All right then they are both received in

evidence.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, do you have any understanding

as to whether your husband authorized Mr. Armstrong to

collect materials?

A I don't believe my husband did.

Let me say I don't believe my husband authorized

Gerry Armstrong to go into our personal information storage

to collect materials or the Guardian Archives trunks, no.

Q Now the Guardian Archives trunks were located

at Gilman Hot Springs; is that correct?

A No.

Q Where were they located?

A They were located at the church facilities in

Los Angeles known as the Cedars Complex.

THE COURT: Let me just so we don't get confused

here, the Guardian Archive trunks and the Controller Archive

trunks are the same trunks.

Otherwise, we are going to start using

different terms and everybody is going to be asking questions

at cross purposes.

MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Mr. Litt.

 

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Q Now, R Storage is located where, Mrs. Hubbard?

A In Gilman Hot Springs.

Q And is it your contention that your personal

materials were located there?

A Yes, some of them, a great deal of them.

Q Do you have any understanding as to whether

Mr. Armstrong petitioned your husband to use materials

collected from Gilman Hot Springs to assist in the biography

project?

A No, I do not.

Q Do you know whether such a petition was sent

to your husband?

A I know that a petition was sent to my husband

in relationship to being appointed to the post.

Q When did you learn that?

A I learned that in the -- in my deposition in

this case.

Q So you learned that after the date of

5 February, 1980 is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And the date of 5 February, 1980 is the date

of Mr. Armstrong's petition which has been marked as

exhibit E; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And your testimony today is you first learned

that he had petitioned your husband when your deposition

was taken?

A No, no. I first saw the petition, the actual

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was sent to me, the original petition that he had done to my

husband was not attached to what I received.

MR. HARRIS: "This" for the record, Mrs. Hubbard, is

what exhibit?

THE WITNESS: This is E.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Your deposition was taken on

January 11, 1983; is that correct?

A It was taken in January '83, yes.

Q Now the question is when did you first learn

that Mr. Armstrong petitioned your husband to collect

materials for the biography?

A I learned that my -- that he was appointed to

the post in this petition and that he was intending to

collect materials for the biography.

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Q All right. So you knew --

MR. LITT: That this, again, refers to exhibit E.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you have any memory as to when

you received exhibit E?

A Well, I usually answered something

when I actually saw it which would be like my answer

which is exhibit D which is February 11th.

Q So your memory is that you received exhibit E

on February 11th and responded that day; is that correct?

A Yes, that is correct.

Q And your testimony now is that you knew as of

February 11 that Mr. Armstrong was commissioned to write --

to collect materials for the biography; is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q And you knew on that date that -- quoting from

exhibit E, " ... petitioned R --

" R is your husband?

A That is correct.

Q -- "to do this post"; is that correct?

A Right.

Q And the paragraph before that --

MR. LITT: Just to clarify, based on that question,

she knew that that is what Mr. Armstrong said?

THE COURT: Let's let the witness answer the question.

If you have an objection, object.

We'll take a 15-minute recess.

(Recess.)

THE COURT: In the case on trial, let the record reflect

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You may retake the stand. State your name

again for the record.

You are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: Mary Sue Hubbard.

THE COURT: Have a seat.

You may continue with your cross-examination.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Mrs. Hubbard, I believe you

testified on direct examination that Mr. Armstrong stole

materials relating to the death of your son Quentin; is that

correct?

A I don't know if I alleged specifically to those,

but I consider he did steal materials of mine.

Q Relating to Quentin?

A As -- I am not sure. I think he got those from

the GO. And they were not supposed to give the materials

to him without my permission.

Q When do you -- the GO is the Guardian's Office?

A Yes, that's right.

Q When do you think he got those from the

GO?

A I have no idea.

Q What made you think he got those from the GO?

A Because I know they have the records there.

And I also know that in our agreement with the police in

Las Vegas, that those documents were under seal there.

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Q That they were under seal in the records of

the GO?

A No, that they were under seal -- the original

documents of those are under seal in Las Vegas and that those

materials then could have only come from the GO files.

Q I believe you testified that what Mr. Armstrong

stole were reports of private investigators that the Guardian's

Office had hired?

A That is correct.

Q What makes you think he stole those?

A Well, why does he have them in his possession?

I mean, he is not working on any biography.

Q Do you consider those to be personal materials

that shouldn't have gone to Mr. Garrison?

A I do.

Q And so you don't know whether Mr. Armstrong

stole those and kept them on his own or whether he gave them

to Mr. Garrison?

A No, all I know is that they are right there

in the court records.

Q In fact, you don't even know who gave them to

Mr. Garrison; do you?

A No. I don't.

Q And who is Vaughn Young?

A He is an employee, I believe, of the church at

one time that I knew.

Q Do you know whether he is now?

A I don't know.

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Q Do you know whether he's been named as a

witness in your case?

A I didn't review the witness list, no.

Q Do you know whether he's been reviewing the

documents downstairs that are under seal?

A No, I was never there when he was doing any

reviewing of documents.

Q Did you ever give him permission to do that?

A No, I have never given him permission to do

that.

Q And you don't know whether he is currently

working for the church or for you?

MR. HARRIS: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Well, if I suggest to you,

Mrs. Hubbard, that it was Vaughn Young who gave the

materials relating to Quentin to Mr. Garrison and not

Gerald Armstrong, does that surprise you?

A I -- MR. HARRIS: Object to the form of the

question.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you know whether Vaughn Young

gave the materials to Omar Garrison relating to Quentin?'

A I don't know.

Q And you don't know whether Vaughn Young has

been working in the employ of the church right up to the

present time?

MR. HARRIS: Asked and answered, Your Honor, three

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THE COURT: I will sustain the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: In any event, your testimony

is that those materials relating to Quentin are personal

and shouldn't have gone to Omar Garrison; is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Young received permission

from anyone in the Guardian's Office to collect those

materials?

A Collect them for what purpose?

Q For the biography.

A No, I don't know that.

Q You were removed from your post as controller

at some point in tine?

A I resigned from my post at some point in

time.

Q When was that?

A That was in May 1981.

Q Did you resign because of your conviction of

a felony?

A Partially. That was part of the reason, yes.

Q And what felony were you convicted of,

Mrs. Hubbard?

A I was convicted of a violation of 18 USC 371.

Q What is that?

A Committing a conspiracy --

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MR. LITT: Objection. Any further inquiry is improper.

THE COURT: It is permissible to bring out what the

common name of it is. The number is meaningless in

itself.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Was it a conspiracy to obstruct

juctice?

A It was a conspiracy to commit an offense

against the United States Government.

Q Was it your understanding that you committed

a conspiracy to obstruct justice?

MR. HARRIS: Her understanding is irrelevant. She has

given the code section. This is clearly improper.

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection. It is

argumentative.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Mrs. Hubbard, when you were

controller did you impose tight security over Guardian Office

documents and materials?

A There was tight security on Guardian Office

documents and materials, yes.

Q Who had access to Guardian Office type materials

when you were controller?

A Only Guardian Office personnel were authorized.

Q If someone outside of the Guardian's Office --

strike that.

Anyone outside the Guardian's Office who

wanted to see the materials had to get permission; is that

correct?

A That was the way it was supposed to have been,

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A Yes.

Q Was there any changes in that procedure?

A Not that I am aware of, no.

Q And was Mr. Armstrong, to your knowledge,

ever a member of the Guardian's Office?

A He attempted to be on many occasions, but he

never was permitted to be, no.

Q So the answer was he was not?

A That is correct.

Q So if he ever had to get Guardian Office

material, he would have to get permission; is that correct?

A Hypothetically, yes. He would have to.

Q Well, can you describe where the Guardian's

Office Archives were located in Los Angeles.

A I simply know they exist. I have never been

to the church facility there.

Q Did you testify on direct that you were

basically the head of the Guardian's Office?

A No.

Q Were you?

A No, I wasn't.

Q In your post as controller did you have overall

supervisory authority over the Guardian's Office?

A Yes, I did. The head of the Guardian's Office.

Q What was her name?

A Jane Kember.

Q You had authority over her?

A I had general supervision over her, yes.

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Q You can't tell us any of the security measures

that were in existence in Los Angeles with regard to

Guardian's Office Archives; is that your testimony?

A There were security arrangements that were

made in relationship to the Guardian files there.

Q Do you know what it is or was during 1980 and

1982?

A I know that only authorized people could go to

the Guardian's Office space. And I know that only certain

people were allowed into various files in the Guardian's

Office.

Q Okay. Are you familiar in general with

the files of the Guardian's Office?

A No.

Q Do you know whether any documents existed

in Guardian's Office files in 1980, 1981 that related to you

and your husband?

A Yes, by inference.

Q Were there any files that directly related to

you and your husband?

A Yes.

Q Were there any personal materials in the Guardian's

Office relating to you and your husband?

A Yes.

My son and what I have already testified, the

matter of Alexis.

Q So the Guardian Office had possession of

personal material relating to you and your husband; is that

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A Certain materials. Yes.

Q You were removed from the post of controller

when?

MR. LITT: I object. The testimony was that she

resigned. It assumes facts not in evidence.

THE COURT: Reframe the question.

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Q BY MR. FLYNN: You resigned when, Mrs. Hubbard?

A In May 1981.

Q Thereafter did you have any authority or

access to Guardian's office files after your resignation?

A No, I did not.

Q So, whoever succeeded you, according to the

routine policy of the church in the position of controller,

could give permission to someone like Mr. Armstrong to obtain

access to those files; is that correct?

A They could, yes.

Q And what is the name of the individual who

succeeded you?

A I think his name was Gordon Cook.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Cook gave permission

to Mr. Armstrong to review Guardian's office files?

A No, I don't know.

Q And your testimony is that there were personal

materials in the Guardian's office files relating to you and

your husband; is that correct?

MR. LITT: Objection; asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q BY MR. FLYNN; Do you know what personal

materials exist in the Guardian office archives relating to

you and your husband?

A Are we talking about the controller's archives

now, the ones that were under my -- in the trunks?

Q Well, your attorney suggested there is no

difference between Guardian office archives and controller

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A Yes.

Q Now, other than the contacts of the trunks

that you have testified about, can you tell me what personal

materials were in the possession of the Guardian office

archives relating to you and your husband?

THE COURT: At what point in time, counse1?

MR. FLYNN: In 1980-81.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, I think the question is

ambiguous.

Mrs. Hubbard has testified as to what the

personal materials were is the controller's archives. Then

Mr. Flynn said: Can you tell us what other materials were

in the controller's archives.

I don't understand the question. I don't see

how Mrs. Hubbard can understand the question.

THE COURT: Well, I am not really sure what you are

really after.

We have got some inventory. I don't think you

want to try to identify each and every item that was in any

particular --

MR. FLYNN: I will withdraw the question, Your Honor.

Q Mrs. Hubbard, you listed the materials in

direct examination that were in the trunks that were in

controller archives; is that correct?

A I did.

Q Now, other than those materials that you listed,

were there any other materials in controller or Guardian

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to personal materials of you and your husband in 1980-1981?

A I don't understand what you are asking about.

You mean other than what I said?

Q Other than what you have testified.

A Oh, there were many other things. You just

named off a few of the things that were in the archive

trunks.

Q And there were many other things of a personal

nature; is that your testimony, in the Guardian office

archives?

A No.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, can we get some ground rules?

Can the phrase "controller's archives" be used

to refer to that?

THE COURT: Well, I don't know. It's been off and on.

MR. LITT: It has been used by Mrs. Hubbard, and

Mr. Flynn is starting to interchange.

THE COURT: I have been given here an inventory of

G.O. archives.

MR. LITT: But that is a different archive than

controller's archive.

THE COURT: Maybe we better find out. You said before

they were the same thing.

MR. LITT: Let's get it cleared up because I am

getting confused by Mr. Flynn's questions.

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MR. FLYNN: Mrs. Hubbard, is it your

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archives are the same thing?

A Well, I can take that -- yes, we can consider

they are the same thing.

Q Okay. Do you know where the Guardian office

archives wore located in 1980-1981?

A Yes.

Q Where?

A At the Cedars Complex, the church facilities

there.

Q In addition to the materials in the trunk or

the trunks that you have testified about, can you give us

some estimate as to how big the Guardian office archives

were in 1980-1981?

A Well, when I am referring to the Guardian

archives, I am referring to those materials that are in those

trunks, and there isn't, to my knowledge, other than for like

tapes and so on, there isn't anything that I knew of that was

in the Guardian archives.

Q Where were the Quentin materials?

A The Quentin materials, I think, were taken

from the Guardian office, but the Guardian office is

separate, you see. There is a Guardian office, U S Guardian

Office, and then there is the controller's office, and the

U S Guardian Office, which was a local Guardian office

which also had facilities there at the complex. They had

their own files.

Q Were there any group or collection of documents

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denominated Guardian office archives?

A Not to my knowledge. There were just the

tapes and the HCOB's and that sort of thing.

Q There was no such denomination Guardian

office archive; is that correct?

A No. There just was really the controller's

archives.

Q Now, other than the trunks in the controller's

archive, were there any other documents and materials?

MR. LITT: Objection.

THE WITNESS: I don't know what he is talking about.

MR. LITT: The question is ambiguous. Were there any

other materials where?

MR. FLYNN: In the controller's archives. That is

what I said, Mr. Litt.

Q Other than the trunks, were there any docu-

ments or materials in the controller's archives?

A Yes.

Q Can you give the Court an estimate of how big

they were?

A Well, most of them had come from the archive

trunks and they had been put into file cabinets by Tom Vorm

and they were also doing tape projects and they were taking

out all the tapes and were making master recordings of the

tapes, and they had taken out transcriptions of the tapes.

In other words, the tapes were being transcribed for use in

publishing books and so they were -- those materials were

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Q Let's start here.

How many trunks were there in the controller

archives, if you remember?

A There were approximately 27 trunks.

Q And those were placed into filing cabinets?

A No. The trunks still remained there.

Materials were taken from those trunks and placed into

filing cabinets within the controller archives.

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Q Approximately how many filing cabinets in

1980-81 were there in the controller's archives, if you know?

A I don't know.

Q Now, what about the Guardian office archives

worldwide? Where were they located?

A Those were located at Saint Hill, Sussex.

Q Did they contain the same materials or copies

thereof of what was contained in the controller's archives

in the United States?

A What do you mean copies of?

Q Well, were these basically the same materials,

only one was originals and one was copies?

A I don't know what they had at Guardian archives

at Saint Hill.

Q Had you ever been there?

A No. I had never been there to see those after

they had been established.

Q Can you give the Court some estimate of how big

those archives were?

A No, I can't. I have never been there.

Q What about the B-1 archives? Have you ever

heard that term?

A No. I have never heard that one term.

Q Have you ever heard the term B-1 files"?

A I have heard of the Information Bureau files.

Q The Information Bureau was the bureau of the

Guardian's office that collected information?

A Yes, it was.

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Q And is that the bureau that collected

information on Quentin?

A Yes.

Q And were Quentin's files in the B-1 bureau

files?

A I can't testify directly to that. But I

presume they were.

Q They were?

A I presume so.

Q Now, was there different types of permission

procedures required to get into B-1 files as opposed to

getting into controller's archives?

A Yes.

Q What was the difference?

A In getting into Information Bureau files, they

would have to go through Guardian personnel to get authority.

And to get into the controller's archives, they had to go

through myself to get authority.

Q After you resigned, permission would reside in

the new controller; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q Now, when did you first know that Gerald

Armstrong had possession of documents and materials from

Gilman Hot Springs relating to you or your husband?

A I think that -- after I had consulted with my

attorney, I had received a registered letter from

Mr. Armstrong and a mailing service which I employed. And I

wondered what was Mr. Armstrong sending me a registered

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I then contacted my attorney and asked him --

I knew that Mr. Armstrong had already been giving

depositions or affidavits or something in court cases, civil

cases, against the church.

So I undertook to ask my attorney about this

matter. And he was to make inquiries on my behalf to the

church.

Q So the first time you learned about the fact

that Mr. Armstrong had possession of personal materials

relating to you and your husband which you say he stole was

in the summer of 1982 shortly before the beginning of this

lawsuit in August of 1982; is that correct?

A Yes, other than the specific things that I

had already authorized which were those materials.

And then in one of his dispatches here he

mentions certain little things about -- like some -- a

diary about my husband's Orient trip, some poems, essays, a

few other things which I knew I had seen at our house at

Gilman Hot Springs. And I knew what those materials

involved.

Q Your testimony now is that you knew in

February of 1980 that he had access to some materials at

Gilman Hot Springs relating to you sad your husband; is

that correct?

A I am testifying that these things I knew about,

I authorized, and felt that they were all right for him to

have, yes.

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But I did not think that he had actually gone

into my storage at the time because these materials were not

stored in my storage there and materials that I authorized

from the Guardian -- controller's archives, I had actually

seen. They were boxes that had been sent over to me and I

had personally authorized them. And that is simply my testi-

mony.

Q What materials that are currently under seal

came from Gilman Hot Springs that you say you didn't know

about in February, 1980 that he had possession of?

A There are all the things that I have said, but

I'll repeat them again.

There were letters to and from my husband to

his mother; this was practically his whole lifetime of

letters, letters to and from my husband to his father which

were all of his collection of letters over his lifetime;

letters to and from my husband to and from his first wife

Polly which covered their entire marriage period.

There were letters to and from my husband to

his second wife Sarah that covered their entire marriage

period; letters to and from my husband in relationship to his

son.

There were certain manuscripts of my husband;

a book, called "Positive Mental Therapy."

There were numerous documentations of materials

from a Porto Rican minerals company; numerous documents from

something called Allied something or another which was a

company that he had.

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There were materials in relationship to my

husband's Dianetics Research Foundation; legal memos from

Mr. Weiskirk; legal memos from my husband to Mr. Struckmeyer;

materials about my husband's Alaskan expedition and the

volumes of books that he had done of "The Magician," the

ship that he had gone on; just all sorts of things.

Q Now, those materials, you didn't know that he

had?

A No. I never knew he had those.

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Q Did you know that he had any personal letters?

A There were a few things that I had seen at the

house, that were letters that were mentioned there that I had

seen in the house at Gilman Hot Springs.

Q If you will look at the fifth paragraph of

Exhibit E.

A Yes.

Q Incidentally, where were you living in February

1980?

A I was living in Los Angeles.

Q So you received this in Los Angeles?

A I did.

Q And did you go out to Gilman Hot Springs to see

what Mr. Armstrong had possession of?

A No, I did not. I also know that Mr. Armstrong

never wrote me and said, "Hey, Mary Sue, I am going into

your storage and I am taking things out of your storage,

and you don't know anything about it. And I am taking 25 or

30 or 40 boxes of your things."

And, I mean, he could have asked, you know.

Q You never knew about that?

A I never knew about that. He never asked me in

any letter.

I asked him, "Please ask me what you want for

this biography."

He never wrote me a letter asking me for any-

thing.

Q Mrs. Hubbard, would you look at the fifth

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A Yes, I will.

Q Do you see the phrase, "Right now I am

assembling whatever data, docs, et cetera, we already have

at SU"?

A Right.

Q What is "SU"?

A SU is the summer headquarters out at Gilman

Hot Springs.

Q Was it called the special unit?

A It might have been.

Q So he is telling you in the first sentence he

is assembling whatever data, docs we already have at Gilman

Hot Springs; is that correct?

A Right.

Q (Reading:)

"In so doing I have made a

number of finds, one of which is an

uninventoried, beat-up box containing R's

diary from his orient trip."

You see that?

A Yes, I see that.

Q So you knew that in 1980?

A I did.

Q Poems?

A Yes.

Q Essays?

A Yes.

 

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Q (Reading:)

"And several personal letters

and other things"?

A Yes.

Q Do you see that?

A Yes, I do.

Q Now, would you agree this was right at the

beginning of Mr. Armstrong's beginning this project?

A Yes.

Q So right at the very outset he told you that he

had personal letters; is that correct?

A That is correct. I knew because I had seen

these boxed materials out there, so I knew what he had.

Q When did you see those?

A I saw them on a visit when I was there to

Gilman Hot Springs.

Q When was that?

A That was late 1979.

Q And you had gone through all these materials?

A No, there were some of them out there. My

husband had them, and they were on the -- like diary of the

Orient trip. That was on the coffee table.

Q You have a specific memory of that being on the

coffee table and not in some boxes?

A Yes, they were on the coffee table and not in

some box. I presume somebody else later put than in a box.

Q Did you go through any box when you were out

there in late 1979?

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A No, I did not.

Q You didn't know what was in the boxes?

A What box? There was only one box referred to.

Q Were there any other boxes?

A No, there were just these materials which I

recognized as having seen from the Gilman Hot Springs

house.

Q So you don't know what materials he was

collecting out there; is that your testimony?

A Yes. I didn't know what other materials.

Q You didn't know?

A I didn't know. I assumed that he would ask me

if he wanted to go through my personal storage, he would ask.

But there were other materials out there. People had been

living at Gilman Hot Springs and my husband since 1976, so I

assumed he was collecting some materials there.

Q Well, these several personal letters that are

referred to, were those in your personal storage?

A At that particular time, no.

Q Where were they located?

A They were located at that time, as I say, in

the house at Gilman Hot Springs.

Q They weren't located in the beat-up box?

A No.

Q Well, does the letter say that they were

located in the beat-up box?

A (Reading:)

"In doing so, I have made a

number of finds, one of which is an

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uninventoried, beat-up box containing

Ron's diary from his Orient trips, poems,

essays, et cetera from his youth and

several personal letters and other things."

And I assume from reading that, that means

they were in the beat-up box.

Q So they weren't on the coffee table?

A No, not at that time.

Q Now, how many boxes of personal letters were

out at Gilman Hot Springs, if you recall?

A I don't recall.

Q And that storage out there is called R

storage?

A Yes.

Q Did you ever go through that storage?

A I packed up that storage and I saw the storage

in this innumerable number of boxes when I was at La Quinta.

Q When it was at Gilman Hot Springs, did you ever

go through that storage?

A No.

Q Now, in 1979, early 1980, were you at Gilman

Hot Springs when shredding was occurring, shredding of

documents?

A No, I was not there at that time.

Q Do you know anything about the shredding of

documents during that period of time?

A No, I don't.

Q Would a shredding operation have come under the

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MR. LITT: Objection; calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Well, if you know, you could state. If

you don't, you can so state.

THE WITNESS: No, I don't know.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: It wouldn't have?

MR. LITT: The witness just answered the question and

said she didn't know.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. She said

she didn't know.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Your testimony is you don't

know whether a shredding operation in 1979, early 1980,

would have come under the domain of the Guardian's office?

MR. LITT: Objection; asked and answered.

THE COURT: Well, it is clarification; overruled.

You can answer.

THE WITNESS: At the time -- I think you are asking

me about shredding at Gilman Hot Springs.

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Q Right. I am asking you whether that would

have come under the domain of the Guardian's office to engage

in such an operation.

A No.

Q It wouldn't have?

A No.

Q In early 1981, was there any agency within the

Church of Scientology which would have had control over

shredding of documents?

A I never heard of anybody having control over

shredding of documents.

Q Did you know anything about something called

shredding of church documents?

A I know that -- you know, like at some point

within the G.O., like if they were finished with files, old

files, materials, that they shred them. And they shredded

old files that were no longer --

Q Did you ever hear of a procedure called

"a vetting hat write-up"?

MR. LITT: Your Honor, in the motion in limine the

Court ruled that there was not going to be a wide open dis-

cussion of all of this.

Mrs. Hubbard has been asked about shredding at

Gilman Hot Springs. She says she knows nothing about it.

This is beyond the scope. If it is impeachment,

I don't know what of. This is improper examination.

THE COURT: Well, she has testified about giving

consent and what she gave consent to and what she didn't give

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didn't believe to be somewhere else.

This is cross-examination. Her credibility is

in issue. We did talk about some of those motions, but they

were primarily in the context of a jury trial. And we

wouldn't be doing any of these things in the presence of a

jury.

There is no jury here.

I don't know what this is leading to. It may

lead nowhere. But I think he can ask the question.

Overrule the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN:Do you know what "vetting hat

write-up" is, Mrs. Hubbard?

A I have never seen a vetting hat write-up.

Q Do you have any idea what the term means?

A I have heard of vetting, yes.

Q What is your understanding of what that term

means?

A I think it is removing from the files any of

the headings that say to and from, the signatures of dis-

patchers.

Q Is that something that the Guardian's office

did?

A I believe at one time the Guardian's office

did do some of that, yes.

Q Were you the controller when the Guardian's

office was doing that?

A I heard about it, yes.

 

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Q What was the purpose of vetting, if you know?

MR. HARRIS: Could we have a time frame, Your Honor?

MR. FLYNN: 1980-81, Your Honor.

Q What was the purpose of vetting?

A '80 and '81, I am not sure I heard about

vetting in '80 and '81 within the Guardian's office.

Q Did you know what the term meant in 1980 and '81?

A Yes, I did.

Q Was the purpose of vetting to prevent -- well,

like the government might seize documents and find out

certain things about the operation of the church?

A At one time there was a sort of -- well, like

after the raid upon the church and when the government took

so many documents, they took about 200,000 documents of

materials and only used about 200 at trial.

I know that the church sort of -- well, like

within the G.O. there was like a paranoia that developed;

that everyone was afraid of writing anything within the

Guardian's office because by some -- that the FBI might come

in and raid and so on.

So I knew it very early before we clarified

exactly what the law was all about and what -- like the law

of conspiracy was about. And so there was some vetting

done that I was aware of within the G.O.

Q Did that paranoia that you just described

exist in early 1980 at Gilman Hot Springs with regard to

the government seizing documents of the church, if you know?

A I didn't know that at the time, no.

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Q Do you know whether a shredding operation

took place in early 1980 at Gilman Hot Springs?

A I don't know.

Q You don't know anything about it?

A No.

Q Now, do you know or have you learned that in

connection with any shredding operation certain materials or

documents from R Storage were collected by a person named

Brenda Black and brought to Gerald Armstrong?

MR. LITT: I object to the question of has she

learned.

What is the relevance, Your Honor?

THE COURT: It is preliminary to some other question.

I'll overrule it.

You can answer.

THE WITNESS: Subsequently in the course of -- in the

course of this legal case, I learned that Brenda Black had

asked Gerry about some materials, yes, at one point.

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Q Have you talked to Brenda Black about that?

A No, I have never talked to Brenda Black about

it.

Q Was that the first time you learned anything

about shredding?

A That was the first time I learned anything

about shredding, yes.

Q And when did you acquire that knowledge?

A That must have been at some point in late

'82, something like that.

Q Now do you have any understanding as to the

fact that Mr. Armstrong came into possession of documents

and materials from R Storage during a shredding operation

in early 1980?

MR. LITT: Your Honor, Mr. Flynn is trying to

establish what Mrs. Hubbard's assessment of basically

evidence in this case is. In Mr. Armstrong's testimony he

can put on testimony as to that. The question is what she

knew during the relevant time period, all of which is prior

to August 1982.

If she's heard what Mr. Armstrong may have

testified to, what does that have to do with any of the

issues in this case if she didn't have personal knowledge

of it.

THE COURT: Of course, it is irrelevant unless it

is preliminary to some other question.

MR. FLYNN: It is preliminary, Your Honor.

MR. LITT: Well, can we have an offer as to what

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THE COURT: We could have had the answer long ago.

Would you read the question, please, if you

can find it.

(Record read.)

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you have any understanding

about that?

A No, only what has been alleged in the case.

I don't know the facts of it at all.

Q After you learned that Mr. Armstrong came into

possession of what he says is in exhibit E from R Storage

at the special unit at Gilman Hot Springs --

A Yes.

Q -- did you at any time thereafter go out and

examine any of the documents and materials out at Gilman

Hot Springs that he had come into possession of?

A I didn't know he had come into any possession

of them other than what is stated there.

Q Well you knew he had a beat up, uninventoried

box; is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q And you knew that there was material relating

to you and your husband in R Storage; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q Did you ask him where he got the box?

A No I made an assumption.

Q What assumption did you make?

A I made the assumption that after my husband

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box from what I had seen in the Gilman Hot Springs house and

that that was the beat up box that was ing talked about.

Q When was your understanding as to when your husband

left the area?

A My understanding was my husband left the area

in early February 1980.

Q Did you ever have the understanding that he

left in March 1980?

A No, I didn't.

Q Now you filed various declarations in various

courts in the United States; have you not?

A Yes.

Q And those declarations relate in part to the

fact that you haven't seen your husband since 1979?

A Yes.

Q And do you have a specific memory today that

your husband left in early February 1980?

A Just that it seemed that was about the time

that he left, yes.

Q Could it have been March?

A In reviewing various data and so on to refresh

my memory, I think it was in February of 1980.

Q Let me show you a 28-page declaration you

executed on September 28, 1983.

A Right.

Q Is that your signature?

A Yes, that is.

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Q And would you read the first sentence in

paragraph 12 of that declaration?

A (Reading:)

"Somewhere around March 1980 my husband

again went into complete seclusion."

Q Now does that refresh your memory, Mrs. Hubbard,

as to when your husband left Gilman Hot Springs?

A No I still believe I am more correct in the

February 1980.

Q Well you signed this under pain and penalty

of perjury; did you not?

A I did,

Q So this affidavit is wrong?

A That affidavit is not as correct, no.

Q Is it false?

MR. LITT: Objection; it is argumentative.

THE COURT: Sustained; it is argumentative.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: You testified in direct that

your husband is in seclusion; is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q What do you mean by seclusion?

A I mean that he is living privately and personally

and by himself.

Q When was the last time you saw your husband?

A I have already said late 1979.

Q And after that period of time did you ever

appear before a notary public with your husband and execute

any documents?

A No, I did not.

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Q Have you communicated with your husband since

late 1979?

A Yes, I have.

Q How have you done that?

A I have written him personal letters which I

have addressed in envelopes and put them into my out basket

in my office.

Q Is your husband receiving those letters?

THE COURT: If you know.

THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Did you testify in your

deposition that you don't believe your husband is receiving

those letters?

A Yes.

Q Is that your belief here in the courtroom?

A That is my belief in the courtroom.

Q Do you know who is receiving the letters,

Mrs. Hubbard?

A No, I don't.

Q Do you know whether those personal letters

are read by members of the church?

A No, I don't.

Q Do you of anyone that is communication with your

husband?

A No, I don't.

Q Since late 1979 have you been in communication

with any person who has told you that he is in communication

with your husband?

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A No, I have not.

Q Well, you have been in communication with your

lawyer; is that correct?

A Yes. I have been in communication with my

lawyer.

Q You are aware that a declaration of your husband

was filed in the DeWolfe probate proceeding; is that

correct?

A Yes. That is correct.

MR. FLYNN: May I have exhibits 1 and 2 of the plaintiff,

please?

Q Have you seen this handwritten letter of your

husband marked exhibit 1 and dated February 3rd, 1983?

A No. I have never seen the original of this.

Q You have seen a copy?

A I have seen a copy, yes.

Q Now, do you know the circumstances under which

that letter came into the possession of your attorney?

A No, I do not.

THE COURT: I don't think there has been any testimony

that it was ever in the possession of her attorney.

MR. FLYNN: To date there has not been, Your Honor.

Q Now, do you know whether that handwritten --

do you know who Mr. Lenske is?

A Yes.

Q Do you know who Mr. Brunell is?

A No.

Q Do you know that special ink was sent to your

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A I didn't know at the time. I heard about it

later in the case.

Q You knew that special ink was sent?

A I just heard about it.

Q Do you know whether the special ink was prepared

the day before that letter is dated?

A No, I don't.

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Q Now, do you know of any way that anyone in the

Church of Scientology communicates with your husband?

A No, I don't.

Q Are you familiar with a corporation called

Author Services, Incorporated?

A Yes, I am.

Q And what is your understanding as to what that

corporation is?

A That that is a business management firm that

my husband has conduct personal business for him.

Q And do you know whether they are in weekly

communication with your husband?

A I believe that they must be, that they might

be in communication with him. I know they send him reports

because of affidavits that were filed in this case.

Q So your belief is that Author Services,

Incorporated is in weekly communication with your husband?

A I don't know weekly and I don't really know.

I have never asked them. I just know what they said in

the affidavit.

Q When you write these letters to your husband,

describe how you deliver them or mail them to him?

A I write my letter. I put it in an envelope.

I put it in my out basket on my desk.

There is a man and his wife who live with

me. He picks it up, the communication from my out-basket,

and then he takes it and he delivers it, as far as I know,

to a mail service.

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Q What type of a mail service?

A One of the public type mailing service where

you can -- you know, that receives mails and telephone

messages for people.

Q You mean like Federal Express?

A No, like an address -- like a place that performs

services for people. We have them in Los Angeles. I

don't know if you have them in Boston or not, but they

are just a mailing service.

People can call them. They leave messages

and they relay messages for people. They will hold your

mail for you and you go and pick up your mail, and that

sort of thing.

Q Do you know the name of it?

A No, I don't know the name of it.

Q What do you put on the envelope that you address to

your husband?

A I put on the envelope to R.

Q With no address?

A No address, no.

Q What is the name of the person who delivers

this to the mail service?

A His name is Mr. Potter, Neville Potter.

Q And where is Mr. Potter located?

A Mr. Potter is located here in Los Angeles.

Q Can you give me his address?

MR. LITT: Objection, your Honor. Mr. Potter lives

with Mrs. Hubbard and we don't want Mrs. Hubbard's address

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cases. We have had rulings that it not be disclosed.

MR. FLYNN: If they produce Mr. Potter, it will

be fine.

MR. LITT: Are we going to spend time on that in

this case? Does the court want to hear Mr. Potter?

MR. FLYNN: It goes to the issue of availability

of Mr. Hubbard.

MR. LITT: If the court wants Mr. Potter in --

THE COURT: It isn't a question of what I want.

It is a question of what you want to do to avoid disclosing

the address if he wants to raise this issue.

MR. LITT: If the court finds that Mr. Potter is

a proper witness and that therefore Mr. Flynn is entitled

to his address, then subject to confirming it with

Mr. Potter, I will represent to the court that we will

make him available in the event that the court permits

the inquiry.

THE COURT: Well, at this point that will be the

status of the record.

Let's go on to the next question.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, Mrs. Hubbard, you don't

believe that your letters are getting to your husband,

but you believe that Author Services, Incorporated is

in communication with him; is that correct?

A I can only say what they said, what I know

from what they said in the affidavit, Mr. Flynn, and I

have never spoken to people or Author Services. I have

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Q Did you, testify earlier in cross-examination

that you don't believe that your husband authorized

Mr. Armstrong to collect the documents to prepare the

biography?

A Yes, I did.

Q Do you know where Mr. Armstrong's communication

came from in early 1980 relative to that subject?

A I am not sure I understand your question.

Q Do you know the circumstances under which

your husband may have communicated to Mr. Armstrong that

he was authorized to collect what you say is your personal

documents and letters?

A I don't think there was any communication

that authorized him to go into my personal storage. If

there is such a document that says Mr. Armstrong could

go into our personal storage, I haven't seen it.

Q Do you know when Mr. Armstrong first petitioned

to collect materials for the biography?

A I understand that he did petition and I have

seen subsequently such petition, but I don't have the

petition before me.

Q Well, let me show you exhibit 11 in this case.

Q Have you seen exhibit 11 before?

A Yes, I have.

Q And in the upper right-hand corner, is that

your notation, "Very good. Approved. Mary Sue"?

A Yes, that is correct.

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Q And what is exhibit 11?

A Exhibit 11 is a dispatch from the controller

archives to myself requesting that I go through the contents

of these two boxes and authorize whether or not they are

going to go to Mr. Jerry Armstrong.

Q And did you do so?

A Yes, I did.

Q And what is the date of exhibit 11?

A January 1981.

Q And what was the purpose of Mr. Armstrong

obtaining authority at that time to have materials from

controller archives?

A I don't see any reference to Mr. Armstrong

requesting materials. I only see reference that Mr. Vorm

is requesting of me whether these materials that are my

personal possessions are authorized by me to be given

to Mr. Armstrong for a museum and for use in a biography.

Q And you approved that?

A Yes, I did. I looked through the materials

myself. I have the two boxes there. I went through them

all and I said yes, that those could go to Mr. Armstrong.

Q That is dated January 5, 1980; is that correct?

A It is dated that, but the date is incorrect

on this.

Q Well, do you know when Mr. Armstrong first

petitioned to gain access to your materials?

A He might have petitioned to gain access to

my materials, Mr. Flynn. If there is such a petition

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the case. I am sorry. I have not seen anything requesting

permission for Mr. Armstrong to enter my storage to obtain

things without my knowledge.

Q You haven't seen anything, Mrs. Hubbard?

A I told you I haven't seen any request from

him requesting authority to go into my storage. I haven't

seen it and at no time throughout the whole time he was

working on it, I never received any request saying, "Dear

Mary Sue: I would like to go into your storage and I

would like to obtain for use possibly with your permission the

following articles" and so on.

He never sent me any materials from my storage

saying, "Dear Mary Sue: Could I please use these for

the biography?"

I never had anything like that, so I am not

sure I understand what in the world you are talking about,

Mr. Flynn.

Q Well, Mrs. Hubbard, you did see exhibit E

where he said he was going through personal letters on

February 5, 1980?

MR. LITT: Objection; that has been asked and answered

about three times now, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: What is your best memory as

to when your husband left to go into seclusion?

A My best memory is in February of 1980.

Q Did you ever see a petition of Jerry Armstrong

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A I did see one, yes, in the deposition.

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Q In 1980 before your husband left did you see

this petition?

A I never saw this petition.

MR. LITT: Is that being marked as an exhibit, your

Honor?

MR. FLYNN: It is, your Honor.

THE COURT: Mark it next in order, F.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Have you had an opportunity

to read that petition, Mrs. Hubbard, prior to today in

the courtrom?

A I only briefly glanced at it in my deposition

earlier in, I guess it was, '83.

Q What is the date of that document?

A It says January 8, 1980.

Q That was a petition to your husband; is that

correct?

A Yes. That is what it says.

MR. LTTT: Your Honor, may I request that if

Mr. Flynn intends to ask Mrs. Hubbard questions concerning

the document, that she be given the opportunity to read

it before she is asked about it?

THE COURT: All right.

MR. FLYNN: Yes.

Q Go ahead.

Q Have you read that, Mrs. Hubbard?

A Yes, I have.

Q What is the date on that?

A The date of that is January 8, 1980.

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Q Now, that is before the date that you say

your husband left the Gilman Hot Springs area; is that

correct?

A I said I thought my husband left in January,

1980. I don't know if it was before or after the date.

I don't know when he left the area.

Q Did you testify earlier that he left in early

February, 1980?

A Yes.

Q Are you changing your testimony now to make

it January, 1980?

A I am saying -- yes, January, 1980 is when

he left.

Q So you are changing your testimony to January?

A I think I already said that having refreshed

my memory, I feel it is more accurate to say that he left

in January, 1980.

Q Now, that document which Mr. Armstrong petitioned

to collect the documents dated January 8, 1980 in the

very first paragraph relates to the fact that he is collecting

documents for the biography; is that correct?

A He says, "I am petitioning you to be posted

to handle research for a biography."

Q Now, is it your testimony that you never saw

that petition?

A I never saw this petition until I say, ad nauseam,

I saw it in the deposition of Mr. -- that they were taking

of me in the Armstrong case.

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Q Would you turn to exhibit E which, I believe,

is in front of you?

A Yes.

Q Do you see at the top "Re New Post R Biography

Handling"?

A Yes.

Q You received exhibit E: is that correct?

A Yes, I did.

Q Now, does the petition dated January 8th talk

about Mr. Armstrong seeking a new post for a biography?

A Yes.

"I am petitioning you to be

posted to handle research for your biography

and related projects."

Q So approximately one month later you knew,

per exhibit E, that Mr. Armstrong was on a new post; isn't

that correct?

A Yes.

Q Did you authorize the new post for Mr. Hubbard's

biography?

A I don't understand what you mean.

Q Did you authorize at any time Gerald Armstrong

to collect materials to work on Mr. Hubbard's biography?

A I stated -- I don't know why we have to keep

going through this.

Where is my answer to Mr. Armstrong?

MR. LITT: Exhibit D.

Do you have exhibit D in front of you?

[Missing Page 901]

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answer right now. When such comes up,

proper arrangements will have to be made.

He has not interviewed me to date. It

sounds as though you are setting this up

well. And all I ask is that the line be

smooth for checking of data and that there

be no Hill 10's or last-minute emergencies

in data gathering; also that neither Ron

nor I are forced into any interviews without

our express permission."

 

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Q Now, the question was, Mrs. Hubbard -- I am

glad you read that, but the question was did you appoint

Mr. Armstrong to the new post?

A I did not appoint Mr. Armstrong to the new

post.

Q You did or did not?

A I did not.

Q Who did?

A I don't know who did. I can only -- I wasn't

present. I don't know. I don't see anything, any answer

from my husband in his handwriting. I don't know who

did.

Q You accepted him on that post; did you not?

A I accepted him on the post, yes.

Q Did your husband have final approval for the

biography?

A I understood that he would have final approval

for the biography, yes.

Q And would your husband in January 1980 have

had the authority to approve the petition dated January 8, 1980

of Mr. Armstrong to collect the materials?

A Well, I am sure he could or he couldn't. I

don't know.

Q Now, from January 8, 1980 do you know how

long Mr. Armstrong worked collecting materials for this

biography project?

A I know that Mr. Armstrong was making -- was

collecting materials for the project. I know he was traveling

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and buying materials and so on because I used to get the

financial FP for authorization for a lot of this stuff.

It would come through my lines.

Q Do you know when Mr. Armstrong left the church?

A No, I don't.

Q Do you know when Mr. Armstrong stopped working

for your husband?

MR. LITT: Objection; assumes facts not in evidence.

There is no testimony that he ever worked for her husband.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you know whether Mr. Armstrong

ever worked for your husband collecting these materials?

A I don't think Mr. Armstrong worked for my

husband collecting materials, Mr. Flynn. He was an employee

of the church as far as I knew.

Q Did you ever sit in on any meetings in which Mr.

Armstrong's status with regard to working for your

husband was discussed between you and Laurel Sullivan?

A I never attended any meetings where anything

like this was discussed.

Q Did you have any conversations in the early

part of 1980 with Laurel Sullivan relating to the fact

that your husband had approved that January 8, 1980 petition

of Mr. Armstrong?

A I asked Laurel at one point whether she knew

whether my husband had actually appointed him and she

said she didn't know but that something had come through

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Q Something had come through from your husband?

A Not from my -- she didn't know and I didn't

know.

Q Who did it come through from?

A Well, we neither one of us knew.

Q Well, who was running your husband's affairs

at the time, Mrs. Hubbard?

A I knew that there was some messengers on duty

who undertook at times to answer questions in relationship

to things put on my husband's lines.

Q And who were they?

A I don't know specifically their names at all.

I was not out there.

Q Was David Miscavige one of them?

A I don't know if he was one at that time or

not.

Q Is it your testimony that these messengers

were the ones who approved this biography project?

MR. LITT: Objection; asked and answered. She has

said she doesn't know.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Did you testify earlier that

you don't believe your husband approved the biography

project?

A I don't believe he -- and this is a personal

belief -- I don't believe he authorized Jerry Armstrong

to be on the biography project.

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Q Well, then, who did, Mrs. Hubbard?

A Well, again, I don't know.

Q And do you know how much money he spent over

approximately two years collecting documents?

A No, I don't. I didn't add it up.

Q Do you know who approved those funds?

A I know that they come through on purchase

order lines and I know that when I saw them, it would

be like a certain sum of money that was being requested,

and as part of a lot of other people requesting money.

Q A contract was written for the biography;

is that correct?

A Yes.

Q Let me show you a copy of the contract.

I have a copy for your Honor.

THE COURT: You want it marked?

MR. FLYNN: Please, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. We are up to G, as in Garrison.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: I have a few preliminary questions,

Mrs. Hubbard. You can look the documents over at lunch.

You testified on direct that in October 1980

a contract was entered into with Mr. Garrison to write

a book on your husband; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And you testified that final approval was

to be in the hand of your husband for the biography; is

that correct?

A That was my understanding, not that it was my

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Q And this contract is about your husband's

biography; is that correct?

A I think -- yes, it is.

Q In October 1980 were you in communication

with your husband?

A No, I was not except as --

Q Do you know anyone that was?

A No, I do not.

Q Do you know whether your husband approved

this contract?

A No, I do not know. He is not a party.

is not a signing party to the contract.

Q Well, final approval for the entire contract

and biography lay with your husband; is that correct?

A That was my understanding, yes.

Q And how was your husband to give final approval

if he couldn't be contacted?

A Well, it would just have to wait until he

could give his approval, Mr. Flynn.

Q And did you have to wait to get the contract

signed, Mrs. Hubbard?

A Well, no one signed. He didn't sign the contract.

Q Did you have to get his approval for the contract,

Mrs. Hubbard?

A Well, no approval was gotten from him on the

contract. I don't understand what you are asking.

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Q Did you testify on direct examination that

the first four paragraphs of the contract related to the

fact that Mr. Garrison could not invade your husband's

privacy?

A No. I simply said that according to my under-

standing, that there were things in the contract in relation-

ship to invasion of privacy in that the work would not

infringe upon any proprietary right of any third party.

Q Well, do you know whether your husband requested

that those clauses be put in?

A No. I don't believe my husband was -- I don't

believe at the time these -- the contract was being done,

I don't think my husband was being consulted about any

of this.

Q It is your testimony now that he didn't even

known about any of these contractual provisions?

A My testimony has always been that he didn't

know about these contractual provisions as far as I knew.

Q Was your husband's approval required for the

contract, Mrs. Hubbard?

A I don't understand what you are asking.

Q Did the contract relate to the writing of

the biography?

A It related to the writing of the biography,

yes.

Q Was your husband's approval required for the

biography, Mrs. Hubbard?

MR. LITT: I object. The question is vague.

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THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.

The agreement speaks for itself.

THE CLERK: It was just my understanding --

MR. LITT: You don't have a question.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Mrs. Hubbard, it is your testimony

that you don't think your husband knew anything about

the contract?

A Well, I never saw anything from my husband's

contract. No.

Q Do you know whether or not your husband was

going to make money from the writing of the biography?

A Yes. I am sure he was.

Q And did you have any estimate as to how much

money he was going to make?

MR. LITT: Objection. Irrelevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Did you have an estimate as

to how much money he was going to make, Mrs. Hubbard?

A I don't know how many books would sell. I

have no estimate.

Q Did you have any discussion with Laurel Sullivan

about the figure of $10 million that your husband was

going to make from the biography?

A I didn't hear -- I don't recall.

Q Did you have any conversations with Laurel

Sullivan about the figure $10 million that your husband

would make from the biography?

A I answered I don't recall any such conversation,

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THE COURT: We'll take a recess. We'll reconvene

at 1:30.

(At 11:58 a.m. a recess was taken to

reconvene at 1:30 p.m., same day.)

 

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---o---

THE COURT: All right. In the case on trial, let

the record reflect that the parties and counsel are present.

The witness will retake the stand, please.

MARY SUE HUBBARD,

the witness on the stand at the time of the noon recess,

resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

THE COURT: Have a seat. State your name again

for the record. You are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: My name is Mary Sue Hubbard.

THE COURT: You may have a seat and you may continue,

Mr. Flynn.

MR. FLYNN: Thank you, your Honor.

 

CROSS-EXAMINATION (Resumed)

BY MR. FLYNN:

Q Mrs. Hubbard, did you testify this morning

that you don't believe that your husband approved the

petition of Gerald Armstrong to collect materials for

the biography?

A Yes.

Q Did you file an affidavit in support of a

motion for a preliminary injunction in this case, if you

recall?

A I don't recall that, no.

 

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Q Let me show you a document which is dated

January 28, 1983 and ask you if that is your signature on

that document.

A Yes. That is my signature.

Q Would you read page 10, paragraph 15 of that

declaration?

A Yes.

Q Did you state in there, " ... that more

particularly, when Gerry Armstrong assumed the post of

personal PRO researcher which included gathering materials

for my husband's biography, he requested of my husband that

that he be assigned to this post"?

A Yes.

Q Did you say, "My husband approved in general

terms and did not make reference to our personal storage"?

A Yes. That is what it says.

Q You said that under oath in January of 1983;

is that correct?

A Yes, I did.

Q That your husband approved of Mr. Armstrong

being the biographer?

MR. LITT: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained. It is argumentative.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you have the declaration in

front of you, Mrs. Hubbard?

A I do.

Q Turn to page 9, paragraph 12, the last

sentence.

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A Yes.

Q Did you say in there, " ... at no time did I

give permission to Gerry Armstrong or to anyone else to

gain direct access to or to copy any of the personal papers

or other items that were taken from our personal storage?"

A Yes.

Q Did you say " ... any of the personal papers"?

MR. LITT: Objection. Argumentative; asked and

answered.

THE COURT: If that is what it says, that is what it

says, Counsel.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: When you approved the

communication to you of a letter of February 5th, 1980 did

Mr. Armstrong state in there that he had personal letters?

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MR. LITT: Objection; it has been asked and answered.

We have covered that.

THE COURT: I am sorry. You want to read the question

back.

(Record read.)

THE COURT: Well the letter speaks for itself.

MR. FLYNN: I will withdraw it, Your Honor.

THE COURT: It is in evidence.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: When you signed this declaration,

you knew that you had approved a petition of Mr. Armstrong

CSW in which he stated that he had personal letters; isn't

that a fact, Mrs. Hubbard?

A I don't quite understand your question.

Q In your declaration you say that you never gave

him permission to have access to any personal papers; isn't

that correct?

A From my personal storage, yes.

Q And you approved his petition dated February 5,

1980 in which he stated he had personal letters; isn't that

correct?

A Yes, as I said from a box that was materials

from my house.

Q When did you first learn of the petition of

Mr. Armstrong to L. Ron Hubbard?

MR. LITT: Objection; that has been asked and answered,

I think, about three times already.

THE COURT: I am not sure. When did you say that you

had -- you did become aware of the original petition; is that

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MR. FLYNN: The original petition, Your Honor, dated

January 8, 1980.

THE WITNESS: That was during my deposition in

the case.

THE COURT: I think we did go through that before,

Counsel.

MR. FLYNN: Just one question, Your Honor.

Q That was during your deposition?

A Yes.

Q That you learned that fact?

MR. LITT: Objection, Your Honor. It's been asked and

answered.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: In your declaration did you

state that Mr. Hubbard approved of the petition?

MR. LITT: Objection. The witness has already

answered that question.

THE COURT: Yes, I will sustain the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Did you participate in the

negotiations for the contract, Mrs. Hubbard?

THE COURT: With whom?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: With PUBS DK and Mr. Garrison.

A To a -- yes.

Q And whose interest did you represent?

A I was representing the church's interest.

Q Who represented your husband's interest?

A He had an attorney that was hired by him was

representing his interest, hired not by him but by an attorney.

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Q And who was that attorney?

A I think the attorney's name was Mr. Wertheimer.

Q Wertheimer?

A Wertheimer,

Q And who hired Mr. Wertheimer?

A Laurel Sullivan.

Q And did Laurel Sullivan in your understanding

at that time represent your husband's interest?

A No I understood Mr. Wertheimer was on the

contract.

Q And who authorized Laurel Sullivan to represent

Mr. Wertheimer?

THE COURT: I think you misspoke yourself. Do you

want to read the question.

(Record read.)

MR. FLYNN: You are right, Your Honor, thank you.

Q Who authorized Laurel Sullivan to hire

Mr. Wertheimer?

MR. LITT: Objection; assumes facts not in evidence.

Assumes facts not in evidence that Laurel Sullivan hired him.

THE COURT: I suppose it is his word. He apparently

was retained.

I will sustain the objection to the form of the

question.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Who authorized Laurel Sullivan

to retain Mr. Wertheimer?

MR. LITT: Same objection. There's been no testimony

as to whether or not Mrs. Hubbard knows who retained

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THE COURT: Well, if she knows, she can answer. She

did say something. I believe Miss Sullivan brought him in

or retained him or something.

You can answer if you know.

THE WITNESS: Well to the best of my belief, I think

she did.

THE COURT: The question was who authorized her to

do this on behalf of either Mr. Hubbard or the church, I

guess, if you know.

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: What post did she have, Laurel

Sullivan, in 1980-1981?

A She had the post of senior personal PRO,

personal public relations.

Q And what office did she work in, if you know?

Was there a title to it?

A I don't know.

Q Did she work in the L. Ron -- strike that.

Have you ever heard the term the L. Ron Hubbard

personal office?

A No, I have not heard that term.

Q Did you review the documents that are under

seal?

A I did.

Q Did you see any documents in there relating

to the L. Ron Hubbard personal office?

A I don't recall.

 

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Q Do you claim that all the documents under seal

belong to you, Mrs. Hubbard?

A A majority of them.

Q Are there any documents under seal relating

to the personal office of L. Ron Hubbard that you claim you

own?

MR. HARRIS: Well, that assumes a fact not in

evidence, to wit: That there are such.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection to the form

of the question.

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MR. FLYNN: I'll be getting into the sealed documents,

Your Honor, in a little bit.

Q Are there any documents under seal that you are

claiming that you own, Mrs. Hubbard?

A I can't say that.

Q Do you currently have possession of any of

the documents that you claim are personal and private documents

relating to your husband from Controller's Archives that

are not under seal?

A No. I don't have any in my personal possession.

Q Do you know where they are?

A Not of direct knowledge.

Q When was the last time you issued any instructions

to anyone with reference to the possession of any documents

from Controller's Archives that you claim are the personal

property of you and your husband?

A In Late October, 1982.

Q Late October, 1982?

A Yes.

Q Who did you give those instructions to?

A To my attorney to write the church a letter

telling them to secure my own personal possessions and put

them under lock and key.

Q Do you know who currently has possession of

the Controller's Archives that are not under seal?

A No. I don't.

Q Have you ever heard of an organization called

The Church of Spiritual Technology?

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A No.

Q Do you know whether they have possession of

your husband's archives?

A No, I don't.

Q Do you know an individual named Lyman Spurlock?

A Yes.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Spurlock is exercising

any supervision or control over your husband's archives?

A I don't know.

Q Do you know where Mr. Spurlock works?

A I thought he worked at Author Services Incorporated.

Q Do you know whether Author Services is a

private profit-making organization?

MR. LITT: Objection. This was discussed this morning.

The witness has answered that question, I believe.

THE COURT: I don't recall this specific one.

You may answer if you know. If you don't, you

may so state.

THE WITNESS: I don't know, Your Honor.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: You testified this morning

that the diary and several personal letters were laying on

a coffee table in the house at Gilman Hot Springs; is that

correct?

A Yes.

Q And the last time that you saw that was in

late 1979?

A Yes.

Q Who was in charge of the house in 1979 that

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MR. LITT: Objection. Ambiguous.

Is this referring to the house at Gilman Hot

Springs, or where Mr. Hubbard was actually residing at the

time?

THE COURT: I assume it was the house where the book

was, the diary that she said she saw.

MR. FLYNN: That is correct, Your Honor.

Q Who was in charge of that house?

A I don't know the person in charge of that

house.

Q Have you ever heard of the term "Household

Unit"?

A Yes.

Q What was the Household Unit in 1979?

A This was a group of people that were looking

after the personal property and the house down there in

Gilman Hot Springs.

Q Did they have authority to look after the

personal property and the house at Gilman Hot Springs?

A They were looking after it, yes.

Q Did they have authority from your husband

to do so?

A Yes.

Q And this diary was lying on a table; is that

correct?

A Yes.

Q And after that point in time did you ever

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saw the diary?

A No, I never returned to Gilman Hot Springs.

Q Was it left in charge of the people who were

in charge of the Household Unit?

A I assume so. I presume so. I don't know.

Q Would your husband have had supervisory

authority between December, 1979 and January, 1980 over

his house at Gilman Hot Springs?

A I don't know.

Q You don't know that Gerald Armstrong was in

charge of the Household Unit, Mrs. Hubbard?

A I don't know that.

Q So if he was in charge of the Household Unit,

he was in charge of the personal property at Gilman Hot

Springs?

A I don't know that.

Q What role did you play in the contract

negotiations relating to the contracts between PUB DK and

Omar Garrison?

A Looking over the final draft of the contract

and more or less giving final authorization for the contract.

Q And you gave final authorization for the

church for the contract?

A Yes.

Q Well, the church wasn't a party to the contract,

was it?

A The church in DK was.

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Q What church in DK?

A AOSH PUB DK.

Q Was PUB DK controlled by the Church of

Scientology of California?

MR. LITT: I object to the term "controlled." What

does that mean?

Are we talking about religion, inter-relationships,

or --

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection in the context

of this case.

You may reframe the question.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Did you testify on direct

examination that the PUB DK was related to the Church of

Scientology of California?

A I don't recall that I testified that.

Q Are the two related?

A Well in that they all deal with Scientology.

But corporately, they are separate entities.

Q Who represented the interests of PUB DK at

these contract negotiations?

A PUB DK was part of the DK church there.

Q Who was the board of directors of the PUB DK

church if you know during the period of the contract

negotiations?

A I don't recall at the moment.

Q When the contract was entered into did PUB DK

know about it?

A I don't know that.

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Q You don't know whether the corporation PUB DK

knew that it entered into a contract with Garrison for the

biography on your husband?

A I have no direct knowledge of it. I was not

in PUB DK.

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Q Well, who was representing the interests of

PUB DK?

A I don't know.

Q How many people participated in these contract

negotiations?

A I wasn't present during that. I don't know.

Q Would you describe to the court how you

represented the interests of the church if you weren't present?

A The final contract was sent to me, Your Honor,

for my final authorization, whether it was okay or not okay,

and I simply said okay.

Q Do you know who drafted it?

A No.

Q Do you have any knowledge of a contract between

PUB DK and your husband for royalties from the biography?

A Yes.

Q And whose interests did you represent in the

negotiation of that contract?

A My husband's.

Q And you had a power of attorney to do that;

didn't you, Mrs. Hubbard?

A No.

Q Did you have a power of attorney?

A No.

Q Have you read the contract?

A At one time I did see a draft contract of

it.

Q Have you ever seen an executed contract between

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A Not to my recollection, no.

Q What was your understanding as to how royalties

were going to be paid to your husband in connection with

royalties on the biography after they came into PUB DK?

MR. LITT: Objection; what is the relevance of her

understanding on this issue?

THE COURT: I don't know. What is the relevance,

Counsel?

MR. FLYNN: The relevance, Your Honor, is that the

contract between PUB DK and Omar Garrison provides or the

testimony of the witness is that she and her husband

had final approval over all the contractual items in that

contract and over the approval of the biography.

MR. HARRIS: That misstates the evidence, Your Honor.

She said they had approval of the final biography. Didn't

say anything about approval of the contract.

MR. FLYNN: She approved it, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, the word "final" may be ambiguous,

but she said it was submitted to her and she reviewed it

and approved it; am I correct?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, but I think he said my husband

and I, and just I -- I said final okay.

THE COURT: You had final okay.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: And your husband had final

approval on the biography itself?

A On the written biography. That was my under-

standing that he would see it, yes.

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Q Would you explain how the royalties were to be

paid from PUB DK to your husband.

MR. LITT: Same objecetion I made before. What is

the relevance of that?

THE COURT: What is the relevance, Counsel?

MR. FLYNN: The relevance, Your Honor, is that the

only manner in which Omar Garrison could be paid pursuant

to this contract was for L. Ron Hubbard to approve the

biography. If he never approved the biography, then he

would never get paid.

On the other hand, if it did get approved by

L. Ron Hubbard and he got paid, he was to get paid a

percentage of the royalties and the percentage of those

royalties related to the contract between PUB DK and

L. Ron Hubbard.

THE COURT: I still don't see what it's got to do with

our case here. It may all be true.

MR. FLYNN: If L. Ron Hubbard is the final arbiter

of what is to be done with the document or what is to be done

with the biography, then that contract is relevant to find

out what the contractual agreement was between L. Ron Hubbard

and PUBS DK on the documents.

THE COURT: I assume you have got the contract if there

are any contracts.

MR. FLYNN: They have never been produced, Your Honor.

THE COURT: This witness isn't apparently privy to any

such agreement, so I don't see what the royalty arrangement

has to do with what the other terms of the contract might be.

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You may ask your next question. I will sustain

the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: You mentioned certain legal

memos that were in the Controller Archives; is that correct?

A I did.

Q And you mentioned the name Mr. Baudin; is that

correct?

A Yes.

Q Were the Baudin memos in the Controller Archives?

A No.

Q Where were they located?

A They were located in Gilman Hot Springs.

Q Where in Gilman Hot Springs?

A Among my husband's papers there.

Q Now are you familiar with a document called

the Baudin Pick-Up Project?

A No.

Q You testified that your husband is in seclusion;

is that correct?

A Yes.

Q When you were the controller in 1980 and 1981

did you participate in any operations to conceal your husband

or hide him from process service?

MR. HARRIS: "Operations", Your Honor? Vague.

THE COURT: All right. I will sustain the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Did you do anything in 1980 or

1981, Mrs. Hubbard, to try to conceal your husband?

A Well, my husband left in February of 1980.

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Q The question is did you do anything to conceal

him?

A I don't understand your question. If he is not

there, I can't conceal him. I am sorry. Could you rephrase

your question.

Q Prior to 1980, between 1978 and 1980, as

controller did you write up any plans or projects within

the Guardian's Office to conceal your husband?

A No, I never wrote anything like that.

Q Between 1975 and 1980 did you write up any

plans or projects to conceal your husband?

MR. LITT: Your Honor, at this point what does the

relevance of what happened in 1975 have to do with the

case?

THE COURT: Well I don't know.

MR. FLYNN: It is a continuining -- Your Honor, they

have been hiding Mr. Hubbard as the Federal District Court

in Tampa has ruled --

THE COURT: Well I am not the Federal District Judge,

and what he might or might not have ruled is what he saw on

matters before him. If there is any inferences that can be

drawn by the fact that he doesn't appear, I will draw those

at the appropriate time. At this point I don't see what the

relevancy is in this regard on this subject as to what

happened maybe 10 years ago.

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MR. FLYNN: well, it has to do with availability,

Your Honor, for purposes of, among other things, the letter.

But in any event, I'll withdraw the question.

THE COURT: Okay.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Mrs. Hubbard, have you ever been

in charge in connection with your duties as controller of the

public relations of L. Ron Hubbard?

A Yes.

Q And when were you in charge of the public

relations relating to L. Ron Hubbard?

A I was never in charge of them.

Q What duties did you have?

A In the Guardian's Office we had certain

public relations functions.

Q What were they?

A They had to do mainly with handling public

relations with the media, with the government officials,

with port officials, that sort of thing.

Q What types of public relations issues?

A Matters that -- in relationship to the church,

mainly church matters. And, of course, whenever there were

relations with church matters, handling any sort of queries

that might arise from reporters and media.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, may I have access to the

sealed documents?

THE COURT: We can wheel them in here.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, we would renew our objection.

Mrs. Hubbard did not use any of the documents.

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see that, at least without some offer as to what its

relevancy is within the cross-examination on this case based

upon the direct that has been presented.

THE COURT: Well, she purports to be the owner or

have a right to possession of some of these documents. And

I have no reason not to believe that counsel is proceeding

in good faith.

If she has a particular document that he can

identify for the record, he can so advise the clerk. He has

got a group of documents here that he can refer to at least

preliminarily solely by the letter and deal with the next

question when we get to it.

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.

MR. HARRIS: Is it the question of ownership, Your

Honor, that these are being --

THE COURT: I don't know exactly what he has in mind.

But certainly, anything relating to the witness's credibility,

ownership, right to possessions all of these issues are

involved in this witness's testimony.

Let's take one step at a time.

MR. FLYNN: The first one should be a brief biography

of L. Ron Hubbard, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

Give it to counsel.

MR. LITT: May we see the document before it is handed

to the witness?

THE COURT: Certainly. But I believe you had already

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MR. LITT: We have, Your Honor, but we would like to

take a quick look so we'll know what we're dealing with.

MR. HARRIS: It is rather voluminous, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I think we should probably mark it for

identification. It will be H for identification only.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Have you seen that exhibit H

before, Mrs. Hubbard?

A No, I have not.

Q Did you testify that you went through the

documents under seal?

A Yes.

Q And when you went through the documents you

did not see that one?

A No.

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Q Have you ever seen that document before?

A No.

Q Do you make any contention that that is a

private or personal document of you or L. Ron Hubbard's?

A I don't know whose personal document it is.

THE COURT: Well, I gather your answer is no?

MR. LITT: Well, Your Honor, if I may, I think there

is a difference between the "I don't know" and "No," because

how all these documents came into the possession of

Mr. Armstrong is not necessarily clear to Mrs. Hubbard, so

that there may be documents that she is entitled to without

her knowledge of the specifics.

THE COURT: Well I suppose there is merit to your

point. A person could be lawfully entitled to community

property, for example, and not be aware that he may have it.

So, I will sustain the objection to the form

of the question.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Did you testify on direct

examination that L. Ron Hubbard stole the documents under

seal?

MR. LITT: Objection.

THE COURT: You got your names mixed up. You said

L. Ron Hubbard.

BY MR. FLYNN: Did you testify on direct that

Mr. Armstrong stole the document under seal, Mrs. Hubbard?

A Yes.

Q Do you claim that he stole that document?

A I don't know that he stole this particular

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not.

Q Have you ever read that document before?

A No, I have not.

Q Do you know whether or not that document has

been continuously used for 30 years to promote your husband?

A No. I don't know that.

Q Have you ever seen a publication called "PRO

NEWS"?

A No, I have never seen this.

Q Have you over seen any biographical sketches of

your husband?

A On book jackets. I have seen some on book

jackets.

Q You have never seen "PRO NEWS"?

A No.

MR. HARRIS: That is what she said, Your Honor; asked

and answered.

THE COURT: All right.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, well, are you claiming that

exhibit, the exhibit before you, that came from the sealed

documents is a private or personal document of you or your

husband?

MR. LITT: Objection; I think that question was asked

and answered.

THE COURT: You asked before whether she contended.

Now it is a question whether she claims it. I will overrule

the objection. There may be a difference.

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THE WITNESS: I don't know.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: You don't know whether it is or

not?

A I don't know whether he took it from my storage

or not.

Q Are you familiar with the background of your

husband?

A Generally.

Q And in connection with the Guardian's office

public relations duties that you were involved in, did you

promote the reputation of your husband?

A Not generally speaking, no. That was -- we

mainly were dealing with governments and media in relationship

to church activities.

Q So you didn't promote his reputation?

A The question was --

THE COURT: She did say something about in a general

way.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Well, are you familiar with the

claims that your husband has made about his biographical

background?

A No, I am not.

Q You are not familiar with any of those claims?

MR. LITT: Objection. As asked, it is impossible for

the witness to answer. This is 30 years of marriage, Your

Honor.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Well, looking at the exhibit in

front of you --

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THE COURT: Wait a second. There is Exhibit H and

there is this PRO thing that you put up there that hasn't

been marked.

MR. FLYNN: Exhibit H.

THE COURT: With reference now to Exhibit H -- that is

it there.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: If you start under the para-

graph that starts, "Hubbard, Lafayette Ronald"; do you see

that?

"Author-Explorer. Born Tilden, Nebraska."

A Yes.

Q Was your husband an author?

MR. LITT: Objection. Your Honor, this is completely

beyond the scope of Mrs. Hubbard's examination. Mr. Flynn

is now apparently going to try to establish his affirmative

defense that the Court has indicated it will permit.

THE COURT: I suppose it is outside the scope,

counsel.

MR. FLYNN: She claims that these documents were

stolen. She claims she has a personal and private interest

in the documents. I am going to go through the documents

and find out whether she claimed that anything that is

immaterial is private and personal.

THE COURT: Well --

THE WITNESS: I don't know if this was mine or not.

THE COURT: Well, I am going to sustain the objection

as to this particular exhibit. She apparently has no

knowledge about it.

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Q BY MR. FLYNN: Aside from the exhibit, do you

have any knowledge about whether your husband claimed to be

an explorer?

MR. LITT: Objection; same objection, Your Honor. It

is beyond the scope of Mrs. Hubbard's direct testimony.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: When you revealed the sealed

documents, Mrs. Hubbard, did you find any documents that

related to whether or not your husband was an explorer?

MR. LITT: Same objection.

THE COURT: Well, overruled. She's asserted a

certain proprietary interest in these examinations. Cross-

examination.

THE WITNESS: Does that mean I answer?

THE COURT: Yes.

THE WITNESS: There were certain materials bearing

relationship to expeditions, yes, that were -- yes.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you consider those to be

private and personal?

A Yes.

Q Do you consider them to have historical interest?

A Possibly.

Q Did you ever speak to Oscar Garrison about

what documents under seal would possibly be of historical

interest?

A No.

Q Does the fact that your husband claimed that

he was a graduate of George Washington University relate to

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MR. LITT: Objection; assumes facts not in evidence,

and it is beyond the scope.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Are you aware of any claim that

your husband ever made that he vas a graduate of George

Washington University?

MR. LITT: Objection; beyond the scope.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Are there any documents under

seal, Mrs. Hubbard, relating to the academic background of

your husband that you claim a personal or private interest

in?

A I didn't see academic material that I recall.

There were so many. I don't know.

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Q So your testimony is you don't know whether

there are any documents under seal that you claim a public

or private interest in relating to his private background;

is that right?

MR. LITT: Objection. The witness just answered the

question. It is a restatement.

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Are there any documents under

seal that you claim are private and personal that relate to

your husband's naval career?

MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, I'll object to the line of

questioning.

The theory of this that Mr. Flynn has put

forward has to do with that man's state of mind. And that

man's state of mind he can testify to. And if it is

reasonable, maybe the documents could be used for that

purpose.

But to try to get the documents in through this

witness in respect to a possessory or ownership claim in

respect to what the contents of the document is is wholly

wrong, given the status of the case and the fact that the

documents are now under seal.

This lady is a victim. And if that man is

allowed to put in through her what the contents of the

documents are, her entire privacy interest is lost.

Let Mr. Armstrong get up and tell Your Honor

what his state of mind is and lay the precedent foundation

for admission of any of these documents. This is not right.

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MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, that is not what I am doing.

MR. HARRIS: What in the world is he doing, Your

Honor? Would you ask him?

MR. FLYNN: What the witness testified on direct was

that the documents under seal are private and personal and

she was mentally raped by Mr. Armstrong going through the

documents.

I am going to go through the documents and ask

her whether that document caused her to be mentally raped.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Were you mentally raped by the

biography sketch of L. Ron Hubbard?

A No.

Q Were you mentally raped by the fact that your

husband's grades from George Washington University are under

seal in this court?

MR. HARRIS: That assumes a fact not in evidence.

MR. FLYNN: I'll go through each one of them. I'm

trying to save time.

MR. HARRIS: Is the theory now that Your Honor will

allow Mr. Flynn to question this witness about the contents

of each of the documents?

THE COURT: There is nothing about the content here.

He is talking about identifying some documents.

The witness has testified about emotional

distress and her damages. And counsel has the right to

cross-examine on that. At this point he is just, I gather,

referring generally to some of these particular documents here.

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MR. FLYNN: I'll have to go through a few, Your Honor.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, could we have an agreement

that the reference is going to be by reference to the exhibit

list? I thought that was the understanding.

THE COURT: At least preliminarily, until there is

some reason to go into the substance of what is involved, it

should be referred to by this descriptive list.

MR. LITT: I'll provide Mrs. Hubbard with a list.

Does the Court have one?

THE COURT: Yes, I have one.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: starting with A, Mrs. Hubbard --

THE COURT: You have got that already.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: You weren't mentally raped by

a biography of L. Ron Hubbard?

A No.

MR. LITT: These are references, not to be marked

exhibit letters, but to the exhibit letters as they are

reflected from the defendant's exhibit list from documents

under seal?

THE COURT: That's right.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Going down to H -- the other

documents are books that are not under seal that we intend

to introduce in evidence.

Going down to H, "flag divisional directive

69R 8 March '74. Facts about L. Ron Hubbard. Biographic

sketch."

Q Were you mentally raped by that?

A No.

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MR. LITT: I thought we were simply going to make

reference to the letter, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I see no problem with a brief description.

There is nothing about that that does anything more than

identify it for the record.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: I, "Tomkins biographical

summary 6 June '72."

Were you mentally raped by that?

A No.

Q J, "2,000 men of achievement. 1971. Hubbard

biographical summary."

Were you mentally raped by that?

A I don't know what that is.

MR. FLYNN: May I show it to the witness, Your Honor?

THE COURT: All right.

THE WITNESS: No.

THE COURT: Return it to me. I'll give it back to

the clerk.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: K, "Hubbard resume (5 pages)."

Were you mentally raped by that?

MR. LITT: Your Honor, could we have a procedure

whereby Mrs. Hubbard is first asked whether she knows the

document? This is a long list of documents.

THE COURT: I know. But, on the other hand, the

witness has been through these.

Rather than do these one by one, why don't we

take a ten-minute recess, and you go over this list, ma'am,

during this recess, and you can tell us when we resume

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identified here are documents which relate to your damage

claim or your state of mind causing you emotional distress.

You might also, I suppose, in the interest of

saving time -- the plaintiff maybe has a list. I don't

know.

MR. LITT: We do have a list, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Go over that, also.

We'll take a short recess.

And as soon as you have got that under

control, we'll resume.

(Recess.)

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THE COURT: All right. We are back is session.

The witness may retake the stand.

Just state your name again for the record. You

are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: My name is Mary Sue Hubbard.

THE COURT: I understand through the clerk apparently

it is going to take a while to go through these; is that

right?

MR. LITT: That is correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Could you go on to some other subject,

Mr. Flynn, and then come back tomorrow morning, and probably

they can go over that entire list that they have prepared

of an inventory of sealed documents?

MR. LITT: Yes, we could do that.

THE COURT: And identify their documents that they

attribute emotional distress to.

MR. FLYNN: That is fine, Your Honor.

Q Let me ask you this today, Mrs. Hubbard.

Before going through all of the documents on the list in

detail, can you think of one document that caused you to be

mentally raped?

A Yes.

Q And which documents?

A There was my personal letters from my husband

to myself from '66 and in '67.

Q And these personal letters, what in them

caused you to be mentally raped that was divulged?

A It was not so much the content in them, which

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taken without my authority and without my permission, and

there is personal letters from my husband to me.

Q Isn't it a fact that those personal letters

represent business correspondence between you and your

husband in running the Church of Scientology?

A Not entirely, no; some parts, yes.

Q 99 percent of them relate to transfers of

funds between bank accounts; isn't that basically true?

A I can't say that. I don't remember percentage.

Q Well, what percentage would you say?

A I never estimated percentage.

Q Your testimony is that it is not the contents,

but it is the fact that --

A Well, it is --

Q -- that the documents were in possession of

Mr. Armstrong; is that correct?

A These are letters, personal letters from my

husband to myself, and I did not authorize anyone to read

through them or have them. That is all I can say. The

contents are personal.

Q Can you name the personal nature of any or

identify the personal nature of any contents other than

business correspondence?

A Yes.

Q What?

A There was personal information about how he was

doing, how he was feeling. There was affection expressed

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Q Can you give me anything specific. Mrs. Hubbard?

MR. LITT: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Isn't it a fact that your

husband -- isn't it a fact that your husband signed most

of his letters "love" to everyone?

THE COURT: Do you mean that is how he signed it,

the words, or all of his letters were signed "love"?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Most of his letters were signed

"love"; isn't that correct?

A I would -- yes.

Q So he was showing personal affection to

virtually everyone he communicated with; isn't that correct?

A I don't know. I am sorry. I am confused?

Q Did your husband make it a practice to sign his

letters "love"?

A Do you mean to other people?

Q To other people.

A Oh, on occasion, yes. I have seen some.

Q Now, when you sent these letters to your husband,

were they mailed?

A I don't know what you are talking about.

Q Did anyone else have access to reading these

letters over the years when they were written?

A Do you mean the ones under seal?

Q Correct.

A No.

Q No one; is that your testimony?

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A Not to my knowledge, no.

Q The letters you are writing now to your husband,

do they have personal matters in them?

A Yes.

Q And your testimony is your husband is not getting

them based on your belief?

A That is correct.

Q Do you know who is reading those?

MR. LITT: Objection. This was asked this morning.

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection as to anyone