Gerry Armstrong--Reporter's Transcript Scientology v. Armstrong 05-04-1984 LASC No. C 420153

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SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DEPARTMENT NO. 57 HON. PAUL G. BRECKENRIDGE, JR., JUDGE

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA,

Plaintiff,

vs.

GERALD ARMSTRONG,

Defendant.

MARY SUE HUBBARD,

Intervenor.

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NO. C 420153

REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

Friday, May 4, 1984

APPEARANCES:

(See Appearances page.)

VOLUME 5

Pages 598 - 812

NANCY L. HARRIS, CSR #644
HERB CANNON, CSR #1923
Official Reporters

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff:

PETERSON & BRYNAN
BY: JOHN G. PETERSON
8530 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 407
Beverly Hills, California 90211
(213) 659-9965

-and-

ROBERT N. HARRIS
The Oviatt Building
617 South Olive Street
Suite 915
Los Angeles, California 90014
(213) 623-7511

For the Intervenor:

LITT & STORMER
BY: BARRETT S. LITT
Paramount Plaza
3550 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 1200
Los Angeles, California 90010
(213) 386-4303

-and-

BARRETT S. LITT
BY: MICHAEL S. MAGNUSON
The Oviatt Building
617 South Olive Street
Suite 1000
Los Angeles, California 90014
(213) 623-7511

For the Defendant:

CONTOS & BUNCH
BY: MICHAEL J. FLYNN

- and-

JULIA DRAGOJEVIC
5855 Topanga Canyon Boulevard
Suite 400
Woodland Hills, California 91367
(213) 716-9400

VOLUME 5

I N D E X

Day	Date	Session	Page

Friday	May 4, 1984	A.M.	598
		P.M.	714

W I T N E S S E S

PLAINTIFF'S WITNESSES:	DIRECT	CROSS	REDIRECT	RECROSS

VORM, Tom (Resumed)	608	665	673
ARMSTRONG, Gerald
(Excerpts from the depositions of Gerald Armstrong were read into the record verbatim starting at page 691.)

E X H I B I T S

DEFENDANT'S	IDENTIFIED	RECEIVED

C - Declaration by Mr. Vorm	610	610

598

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, MAY 4, 1984; 9:07 A.M.

-o0o-

MR. HARRIS: Before resumption of cross-examination,

Your Honor, pursuant to Your Honor's order, I am producing

to the court for in camera inspection, and there are some

privileges that will he asserted with respect to these three

inventories; one dated 24 September, 1982, inventory of

materials turned over to the court by Attorney Michael Flynn;

one dated 3 September, 1982, inventory of material turned over

to the court by Contos & Bunch; and one undated, summary of

materials returned by Omar Garrison.

599

THE COURT: All right. Hand them to the clerk.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, what I am looking for is the

inventories prepared by the church.

MR. HARRIS: The problem, Your Honor, is that these

inventories were prepared pursuant and in some cases prepared

by an attorney. But those where the church people participated,

it was at the direction of attorneys with attorneys present

with the sealed documents in the case of the sealed documents.

And in the case of the other items, at the direction of an

attorney.

In any event, I think we can argue it when the

time comes. But for right now, at least, I have complied

with the court's order.

THE COURT: I am not sure I understand where there is

a disagreement.

MR. FLYNN: There has been, I am informed, an extensive

inventory on computer prepared by the church with regard to

almost every single piece of paper that is downstairs. In

addition to that, there has been an inventory prepared of

the Omar Garrison materials by the church as a well as an

inventory of the controller archives prepared by the church.

That is what we are looking for.

MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, I have no knowledge of any

computer items. I do have knowledge of these three inventories

which is what the court ordered and which I have produced

for the court.

The court specifically asked us to bring --

I can actually probably find the court's words --

600

MR. FLYNN: With the church inventories, Your Honor,

I submit that we would be able to prove that all the documents

under seal are also in possession of the church.

MR. HARRIS: That simply isn't true and he can't

prove it.

THE COURT: There has not been any testimony yet that

there is such an inventory of materials that -- all of the

materials relating to these different archives have ever

been inventoried.

601

MR. FLYNN: The individual who apparently is most

familiar with it is Kenneth Long. On the current state of

the record if the church and the intervenor go no further

and introduce no further evidence with regard to specific

documents that they claim are not in their possession, either

copies or originals, then I would submit they probably wouldn't

have made out their case and I wouldn't need the inventories,

but if they are going to persist in the allegations that there

are 2- to 3,000 pages of originals that they don't have

copies of, and are unable to submit one document, I submit

the only way I can prove that they do is through their own

inventories.

MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, requested, you asked Mr. Flynn:

"What is it you want inventories

of, materials which are downstairs or files

under seal?

"MR. FLYNN: Yes, Your Honor.

"THE COURT: If you have such an inventory,

you are ordered to produce it."

I said, "We will produce it tomorrow."

I have. That was one inventory requested.

The next inventory requested:

"MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, may that be

produced also if an inventory has been done of

Omar Garrison's documents?

"THE COURT: If there is such an inventory,

then the church will be ordered to produce it."

I have.

602

THE COURT: Well it appears to be in compliance with

the court's order.

MR. FLYNN: At this state of the record, Your Honor,

maybe I will let the issue rest.

THE COURT: Okay. We will let it rest. Put it to

sleep.

Now, what about these particular inventories?

I assume that there is nothing here that in a sense is

confidential because these documents, other than -- as to

what is in the court's files under seal, either side could

have made an inventory.

You have got stamped on here "confidential

attorney-client privileges."

MR. HARRIS: That, Your Honor, was prepared by

Mr. Peterson who is here specifically in connection with the

litigation in this case.

THE COURT: True, I can understand why you might

contend it was work product.

MR. HARRIS: I do. I contend it is both work product

and attorney-client privileged, both.

MR. FLYNN: If I could be heard, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Don't interrupt my thinking at the moment.

Just relax.

603

THE COURT: I have rather hurriedly scanned through

this document, the series of documents that deal with the

inventory materials turned over to the court by Contos & Bunch.

I don't see anything here that would be characterised as

attorney-client privileged.

I don't see anything that would be absolutely

privileged on their work product other than possibly some of

the characterizations of the attorney which, I presume would

be his interpretation of some of these documents. That,

presumably, would be absolutely privileged such as reference

to whether something is an original or a carbon copy of

what it might be. That would be interpretation and would be

absolutely privileged.

But certainly, his description of what is there

can't be privileged because it is down there. It is in the

court's possession. It came from the attorneys Contos &

Bunch.

I can't see anything other than possibly some

interpretation which I could cross out.

MR. HARRIS: The problem is, Your Honor, when you

are describing documents, you cannot help but put your own

thoughts in respect to it; in other words, there is no such

thing as as objective inventory of the items because it was

being prepared by an attorney in respect to litigation which

is in litigation.

As far as the privilege aspect, the communication

from the attorney to the client, originally only the attorneys

were allowed, as you may recall, in to see the documents.

604

Now, I don't particularly wish to press the issue

of attorney-client privilege. But I would press the issue

of work product which it is fairly clear to me it is. And

I don't think that we should have to give it to Mr. Flynn.

He has had access to the documents. He could have secured

his own inventory.

THE COURT: Well, do you need any of these in your

cross-examination of this witness? Because my disposition

is to review these more carefully and block out anything which

might prove to be an interpretation.

MR. HARRIS: Might I suggest, your Honor, that you

might have to look at the documents in order to do that?

THE COURT: You may make that suggestion, but I don't

think I have to.

MR. HARRIS: Well, I tried.

I think in order to determine if it is an

interpretation, you must have some objective standard on

which to base the determination which is the document itself.

THE COURT: I don't think I have to get that essentially

involved. It is not that super secret. We have got the

documents here.

MR. FLYNN: I think we are missing the issue a little

bit, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I know what you are saying in a sense;

in other words, if something is missing, you want to know what

is missing and what isn't there.

MR. FLYNN: And they are the only ones who have got

access to what isn't there. They have got all the access.

605

They are walking into court and saying there are materials,

even though the witness could not name one document, down-

stairs that they don't have copies of. And they are the

only ones I can elicit evidence from since it is in their

exclusive possession and control.

THE COURT: It is their burden of proof. So if they

want to prove something that is not there, I guess other than

the 2- to 3,000 pages which are down there which are originals

that we don't have, if they can't either with this witness

or other witnesses identify specifically at least some of

these items, I shouldn't think they would be going through

identifying page by page; we could spend years on the case

doing that.

I can understand how a witness might not be

able to say something without having an inventory, but if he

is shown an inventory and then asked to identify items --

MR. HARRIS: The problem, Your Honor, is that, of

course, that can be done. But we are trying to do this case

without getting into the contents of the documents under

seal. And even an inventory describes to some extent the

contents of the documents which we have contended all along

simply should remain under seal.

We are not trying to produce any original

documents in our case-in-chief or any inventories or copies.

MR. FLYNN: If they are going to stipulate that they

are not going to try to prove that any particular original

is down there or any particular original they don't have

possession of in other archives, I would submit that they

606

haven't met their burden of proof if that is what is going

on here.

MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, if at the time we get through

with our case-in-chief we have not done it, met our burden

of proof, I an sure Your Honor will do the right and correct

thing. But as far as I have anything to do with it, we'll

try to do it without producing any of the documents under

seal so as to maintain their privacy interest.

607

THE COURT: All right, well, let's do it this way:

We are going to proceed at this time with the examination

of these witnesses. I will look these natters over when I

have a chance and anything which I conclude might be an

interpretation of counsel, I will delete from it and counsel

will have the right to call any witnesses back for further

cross-examination as it relates to any of these inventories

if I conclude they should be released or returned to defense

counsel for examination.

MR. HARRIS: All right, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I'd like to get off the dime here this

morning.

MR. HARRIS: Sure, I understand that.

the only thing I wanted to assure the court is

that one of the documents, at least, is an internal church

summary of items which are not under seal and that is the

Omar Garrison one.

THE COURT: I realize that.

Let's get the record stated.

In the case on trial, let the record reflect

that all counsel are here and have been here and the witness

has retaken the stand.

TOM VORM,

the witness on the stand at the time of the adjournment,

having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and

testified further as follows:

THE COURT: Just state your name again for the record,

608

sir. You are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: My name is Tom Vorm.

THE COURT: You may continue.

MR. FLYNN: Just before I do that, I have one other

witness who is a high church official who came to the court-

house named Lyman Spurlock here today. We are going to

call him as part of our case, but we have found that we are

unable to subpoena anyone from the organization because they

won't let you beyond the front door and they won't tell you

whether anyone is there, so if the court could simply issue

an order that Mr. Spurlock is to return at the beginning of

the defendant's case. He is in the court room now.

THE COURT: You can put him on call if he will agree

to be on call. Otherwise, he will have to remain here until

his testimony is required.

MR. FLYNN: I have one other problem with this

Andrew Lenarcic who filed this original affidavit.

THE COURT: Let's do one thing at a time here.

MR. PETERSON: Your Honor, I have discussed Mr. Flynn's

proposal with the witness. He has to be out of town a

couple of days the mid part of next week. We would agree that

he would be on call. Whether we can produce him on the

first day of Mr. Flynn's defense or some time thereafter, I

am not sure. But we will place him on call and at some

time during the defense we can make him available.

MR. FLYNN: That is fine.

THE COURT: As long as he agrees to be on call through

counsel.

609

MR. PETERSON: We would like 24 hours' notice.

THE COURT: All right, 24 hours' notice.

MR. FLYNN: And the second problem is with this

Andrew M. Lenarcic. We are going to deliver a subpoena over

to the organization, but as I say we can't get by the front

door.

MR. HARRIS: That is not true, Your Honor, really.

THE COURT: I am not going to worry --

MR. HARRIS: I agree.

MR. FLYNN: When we get into the issue of Mr. Hubbard's

availability, you will hear a little more testimony on that

point. But in any event, we are unable to find Mr. Lenarcic

and he is a critical witness to the defense because he says

precisely the opposite of what this witness says that I am

now going to go into.

MR. HARRIS: That is a wrongful characterization,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, people are entitled to characterize

things as they want to characterize than. It is not evidence

and I don't take it as evidence. For whatever it is worth,

I think we ought to proceed with the cross-examination of

this witness.

MR. FLYNN: Fine, Your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION (Resumed)

BY MR. FLYNN:

Q Mr. Vorm, you filed a declaration in this case?

A Yes.

610

THE COURT: And is that a copy of the declaration?

A It looks like it, yes.

Q Is your signature on it, sir?

A Yes, a copy of it.

MR. FLYNN: May that be marked as an exhibit, Your

Honor?

THE COURT: Okay.

THE CLERK: C.

THE COURT: All right, C for identification.

Let me see it.

MR. FLYNN: And I would offer it, too.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. HARRIS: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right, be received.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Mr. Vorm, you testified yesterday

that you received from Mary Sue Hubbard a memorandum dated

11 December, '79; is that correct?

Q That is true.

Q Did that go to you personally, sir?

A Yes, it did.

Q And was it signed by Mary Sue Hubbard?

A It was in her handwriting, the whole thing.

Q Well, there was a phrase that said "much love"

with a place for a signature underneath that; is that

correct?

A Could I see the document?

THE COURT: Certainly.

MR. FLYNN: It is either 10 or 11, I believe.

611

Miss Dragojevic has our copy. She is not here yet.

Q She didn't sign that; did she?

THE COURT: Well there are two different documents.

MR. FLYNN: I am referring to exhibit 10.

THE COURT: Do you have 10, sir?

Okay, fine.

612

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Referring to exhibit 10,

Mr. Vorm, Mary Sue Hubbard did not sign that; did she?

A I don't believe she had her name written on the

bottom, no.

Q Now, in the Guardian's Office was it a practice

for people to transmit one document to another without

signing them?

A Transmit one document --

Q From one person to another without signing them?

A Yes, it was. Yes.

Q And with regard to communications from L. Ron

Hubbard was that also a practice?

MR. HARRIS: If he knows.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: If you know.

A I don't know.

Actually, I would take that back. I think it

was not the case because I received communications from at a

certain point.

Q You received communications from whom?

A Signed "R" at the bottom.

Q Typewritten or handwritten?

A Typewritten.

Q And did you accept that as a communication from

L. Ron Hubbard?

A I assumed it to be, yes.

Q So that was a practice within the organization,

to have a typewritten "R" to signify that it came from

Hubbard; is that correct?

613

A Well, in this particular case. The document

that came to me was that way. So I assumed it was in that

case.

Q The question is was that the practice.

A I don't know about the practice in general, the

organization as a whole.

Q In your declaration, which has been marked as

exhibit 12 --

THE COURT: C.

MR. FLYNN: I offered it -- Oh, exhibit C.

Q You state that these materials that you gave to

Gerald Armstrong belonged and were the personal property of

Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard; is that correct?

A That is true.

Q Now, did all of the materials that you gave to

Gerald Armstrong belong to Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard?

A Well, they all came from Mary Sue's trunks;

do --

Q Throughout the period of the biography project

when you were giving materials to Gerald Armstrong, were

there any materials that you gave him that did not belong to

L. Ron Hubbard or Mary Sue Hubbard?

A I gave him materials on two occasions. Both of

them came from the Mary Sue trunks.

Q So your testimony is that they belonged to

L. Ron Hubbard and Mary Sue Hubbard?

MR. HARRIS: Calls for a legal conclusion, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.

614

Q BY MR. FLYNN: In your declaration you state

that they were the personal property of L. Ron and Mary Sue

Hubbard; is that correct?

A What number?

Q Paragraph No. 3.

A That is true.

Q Now, your testimony, as I understand it, there

were no materials that you gave to Gerald Armstrong that

were not the personal property of L. Ron Hubbard and Mary

Sue Hubbard?

A Well, aside from the legal definition, they came

from Mary Sue's trunks; so therefore --

Q When you prepared this declaration --

Did you prepare it?

A Yes. I didn't type it up, no.

Q You did put in the declaration, did you not,

that they belonged to the Hubbards?

A Right.

Q It was your testimony on direct examination that

they belonged to the Hubbards; is that correct?

A I believe so.

Q Now, you also testified on cross-examination

yesterday that on two occasions you petitioned for and

received approval from the controller; one being Mary Sue

Hubbard and the other being Gordon Cook to give the

materials to Gerald Armstrong; is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q And you stated in those petitions that those

615

materials should be rightfully in his possession because he

was doing the biography project; is that correct?

A From the post function, yes.

Q Now, in your declaration you state in

paragraph 6 that at no time did Mr. or Mrs. Hubbard give you

permission to give those documents to Gerald Armstrong; is

that correct?

A Which document is it referring to?

Q Which document were you referring to, Mr. Vorm?

A Well, let me read this.

That was concerning the documents after

Mrs. Hubbard had gone off post.

Q So if I understand your testimony correctly,

with regard to the materials you gave before Mrs. Hubbard

went off post you did have permission from her to give those

materials to Gerald Armstrong?

A That is true.

Q What materials were those?

A It was the ones that I listed out in this

document here.

Q What are they?

MR. HARRIS: Referring to exhibit --

THE WITNESS: It is exhibit 11, "Comply re LRH

Historical Items."

Q BY MR. FLYNN: What documents are they,

Mr. Vorm?

Take one document at a time, if you would, then

I'll ask you a question.

616

A The yearbook, 1928.

Q Is that document under seal in this court?

A I don't believe so, no.

Q In whose possession is it?

A I am not sure at the moment.

Q Have you seen it in the possession of the

church?

THE COURT: At what time, counsel?

MR. FLYNN: At any time after the beginning of this

lawsuit which is August 1982.

THE WITNESS: No, I haven't.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you know where it is?

A No.

617

Q Well you don't know whether is under seal?

A I don't think it is under seal. I don't recall

seeing it there.

Q What is the next document?

A Book of photos, gray cloth cover.

Q Do you know where those are presently?

A No I don't.

Q Are they under seal?

A I don't believe so, no.

Q What is the next item?

A Brown mounted photos.

Q Do you know where those items are?

A No I don't. I am not exactly sure what that

is referring to.

Q Are they under seal?

A I don't know about that one.

Q What is the next item?

A Brown engraved leather photo binder.

Q Do you know where that item presently is?

A No I don't.

Q Do you know whether it is under seal?

A I don't believe so, no.

Q What is the next item?

A Boy Scout's diary, 1924.

Q Do you know where that item is?

A I believe that is in the Garrison stuff.

Q Is it under seal?

A I don't think so, no.

618

Q Is there any material in this list that is

presently under seal?

A There is one item I am not positive on. Letter

from Thomas J. Kelly.

Q Letter from Thomas J. Kelly?

A Right.

Q Do you recall what that item is?

A What it is about or what it is concerning?

A What it concerns.

A No I don't.

Q Now, does that basically represent the first

group of items that you gave to Gerald Armstrong with Mary

Sue Hubbard's permission?

A Yes.

Q What was in the second group of items that you

gave to Gerald Armstrong with the permission of the

controller?

A Well it was several boxes full. I don't recall

each one individually.

Q Can you recall any document?

A There were quite a few files concerning

Rhodesia. There were some telexes. There were various

files, some typewritten, some handwritten communications.

Q Relating to what?

A To LRH's time when he was in Rhodesia.

Q So the telex is the sub-category of your first

answer to documents relating to Rhodesia?

A Yes.

619

Q Other than the telexes, are there any other

items that you recall?

A There were a lot of, I will say at least

five or six files concerning HEC, which is the Hubbard

Exploration Company.

Q Any other items?

A There were some files relating to LRH's

horticultural experiments.

Q Any other items?

A There were some mortgage papers regarding the

St. Hill property in England.

Q Any other items?

A There were various letters. I recall one

letter to Richard Nixon. There way have been one to Kennedy,

and there were several files of that nature to prominent

people.

Q Do you recall any other items?

A There was a file called Cit, C-i-t, -Wash, stood

for Citizen's of Washington. I believe that was taken.

Q Any other items?

A There was a file or two concerning legal FDA.

These weren't individual documents. These were like files

of documents, a file with about 30 or 50 pages or documents

in the file itself.

Q Any other items?

A If I had the inventory to go through. We

checked them off as we took them. That is all I can recall

offhand, though I could probably think of more if I had more

time.

620

Q Which inventory?

A That is the inventory I kept of the trunks

that we checked off as we --

Q At the time you gave them to Gerald Armstrong?

A That's right.

Q Where is that inventory?

A It is in my file.

Q Was that an inventory that was prepared at

the time you gave them to Gerald Armstrong?

A No.

Q Was it prepared prior to the time you gave

them to Gerald Armstrong; that is, in the trunk?

A Yes.

Q Do you know whether there was a lawyer present

when it was prepared?

A I don't believe so.

Q Where is that inventory?

A It is in my files.

Q Do you have it with you?

A No, I don't.

Q How many pages is it?

A Thirty, forty, something like that.

Q Now, that is 30 to 40 pages of inventory that

just covers the material in the trunk for the second group of

materials you gave to Gerald Armstrong, is that correct?

A No.

Q It covers the contents of the entire trunk?

A Did you say "trunk"?

621

Q Did you find that inventory in the trunk?

A No.

Q Where did you find that inventory?

A It was given by me.

Q By whom?

A By, I think it was, the controller transcriptionist.

Q At the time you received the trunk?

A Yes.

Q Was the inventory done at that time?

A No.

Q It had been done in a prior point in time?

A Evidently, yes.

Q And you went through and you checked off the

materials you gave to Gerald Armstrong; is that correct?

A That's right.

Q When you got the documents back from Omar Garrison,

did you compare that inventory to the materials you got

from Omar Garrison?

A No.

Q Has anyone done that?

A I don't know for sure. It could have been

done. It might not have been done. I don't know.

Q Did you compare it to the materials that were

in the guardian's office archives?

MR. HILL: Well --

MR. FLYNN: All right, I will withdraw it, Your

Honor.

Q Let's get the number of archives that exist

622

in the organization. There is controller archives; is that

correct?

A Which time period are you referring to?

Q Between 1979 and 1981.

A Okay.

Q There are controller archives?

A Right.

Q And then there were what we call biographical

archives; is that correct?

A Right.

623

Q And you testified yesterday that you believed

that in biographical archives there were four filing

cabinets?

A Of -- Well, like original materials. I am not

sure exactly how many materials had been copied.

Q If I suggested to you that biographical archives

would fill almost an entire room that were in the possession

of Mr. Armstrong and they were not in the possession of your

organization, does that refresh your memory?

A Refresh my memory of what size they are?

Q Right.

A No. I would stick to my testimony.

Q The four filing cabinets?

A That's right.

Q Now, the 50,000 documents that came from Omar

Garrison, did those come in filing cabinets or boxes?

A Boxes.

Q How many boxes were there?

A Approximately 15, 20.

Q Has anyone done an inventory since receiving

those documents from Omar Garrison as to what is in those

documents?

A I believe so, yes.

THE COURT: We have got that here, counsel, I believe.

One of these purports to be a summary of materials returned

by Omar Garrison.

MR. FLYNN: Perhaps Your Honor can state in camera,

but I can identify it is the inventory that this witness has

624

seen.

THE COURT: It refers to some 20 boxes.

MR. HARRIS: There has been no establishment --

THE COURT: Have you ever seen this before, sir?

THE WITNESS: I think I recall seeing a copy of it. I

am not sure.

THE COURT: Does that appear to be the inventory of

the material returned from Garrison?

THE WITNESS: It would appear to be, yes.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: In addition to the biographical

archives which were in the possession of Mr. Armstrong and

Mr. Garrison and in addition to controller archives which

are the technical materials you testified about yesterday,

there are also Guardian's Office archives; is that correct?

A Yes. They were called Guardian's archives.

Q And there are Guardian's archives at Worldwide;

is that correct?

A That is true.

Q And have you checked the Guardian's Office World

Wide archives to determine whether any of the materials that

are downstairs under seal are also in those archives?

A Yes. I have.

Q Did you do an inventory?

A An inventory was done.

Q Where is that inventory?

A It is in my file or in my office.

Q Where did you do that inventory?

A I didn't do it.

625

Q Who did it?

A It was done by someone over at Worldwide.

Q And Worldwide is over in England; is that

correct?

A That's right.

Q But you have that inventory in your possession?

A That's right.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, may that inventory be produced

together with the inventory relating to the contents of the

trunks?

THE COURT: I'll make such an order -- apparently

these are in this witness' possession and he can deliver

them to his attorney and his attorney can review them and

provide them to the court and we'll do the same thing with

that that we are doing with this.

MR. HARRIS: Very well, Your Honor.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: In your testimony you related --

you testified about documents relating to Rhodesia; in the

biographical archives that were either returned by

Mr. Garrison or in what you say is the four filing cabinets,

are there documents relating to Rhodesia?

A Yes.

Q How many, if you know?

A Several file folders.

Q Either in the biographical archives or in the

documents returned by Mr. Garrison are there documents

relating to the Hubbard Explorational Company?

MR. HARRIS: Just so I get this straight, Your Honor,

626

is he talking about the biographical archives presently in

the possession of the church and this witness as opposed to

the biographical archives taken by Mr. Armstrong which are

under seal in this court?

MR. FLYNN: Correct, Your Honor.

MR. HARRIS: Which is correct, Mr. Flynn?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Mr. Vorm, we'll call the

biographical archives under seal as the sealed documents and

the biographical archives in general are the biographical

archives in the possession of the organization.

A Okay.

627

Q Now the biographical archives that are in

the possession of the organization, together with the

documents from Omar Garrison, do they contain materials

relating to the Hubbard Explorational Company?

A There may be a few in there.

Q Have you checked both places?

A I haven't checked specifically for those

documents. I have been through most of the materials.

Q Did you do a comparative analysis with inventories?

A No.

Q With regard to the horticultural experiments,

are those in the biographical archives in the possession of.

the church?

A I think they are, yes.

Q With regard to the St. Hill property in

England, are there are any documents relating to that issue,

the St. Hill property in the biographical archives in the

possession of the church or the materials returned from

Omar Garrison?

A I think there may be.

Q With regard to the letters to Richard Nixon,

are they in the biographical archives in the possession

of the church or the materials returned from Omar Garrison?

A I haven't seen those.

Q Did you check?

A Not specifically for those documents, no.

Q Did you do a comparative analysis inventory

to inventory?

628

A No.

Q And same question with regard to letters to

Kennedy?

A Same answer.

Q And letters to other people?

A Same thing.

Q And the file that says "Cit-Wash"?

A I don't recall seeing that.

Q You don't recall seeing it where?

A In the biographical archives or the Garrison

archives.

Q Now is that presently under seal?

A I don't recall seeing it down there either.

Q And the FDA files, have you seen files relating

to the FDA lawsuit in the biographical archives in the

possession of the organization or in the materials returned

from Omar Garrison?

A I have seen some documents relating to it in

the sealed documents. I don't know that they were the exact

file.

If I recall, there were two or three files

that were taken from the trunks originally. I have seen at

least one or two documents, individual documents, and then

sealed documents downstairs.

Q Now do you know whether those one or two

documents are in the biographical archives or the materials

returned from Omar Garrison?

A I don't recall seeing them in those archives,

629

no.

Q Did you do a comparative analysis?

A No I didn't.

Q When you gave the materials to Mr. Armstrong,

was it your understanding that the materials belonged to

Ron and Mary Sue Hubbard?

A Well I understood they were under Mary Sue's

control, and in that respect they were her documents to do

with what she wanted to do.

Q So it was your understanding at that time

that they did not belong to the church?

A Right.

Q Were you involved in any consultations, just

yes or no, with any attorneys for the church at the outset

of this lawsuit, beginning of the lawsuit in August 1982?

A I became in communication with some attorneys.

I am not sure of the exact date that you are referring to.

Q Now, are there any materials presently under

seal that you have an understanding of as belonging to the

church?

THE COURT: Well I think you have got an ambiguous

word. You have used it several times. It is the word

"belonging."

A person might have ownership. He might have

a right of possession. I don't know what you really mean

when you say "belonging."

MR. FLYNN: The problem I have got, Your Honor, is

they are using ownership and belonging in their affidavits

630

to get legal relief, which they did, and the witness is now

coming in and saying that he doesn't know what the legal

connotations of these words are, so I am kind of in a never,

never land with regard to trying to prove who owned or had

possession.

THE COURT: Well they are going to have to prove

either possession or some right to relief here, and this

other business, of course, goes to, I suppose, credibility.

But we all know that when affidavits are drafted, they are

using lawyer's language. I think now that we are in trial

and we are being more specific, you ought to try to be more

specific. When you use the word "belong" if you use that

word, you can ask him what he meant.

MR. LITT: This affidavit was before Mr. Armstrong,

who is the only one who knows the documents, testified and

the situation was somewhat confused, and Mr. Armstrong has

testified they are the Hubbards' documents. There has been

no contrary testimony.

I don't understand what this has to do with

any of the issues that have been presented in our case.

THE COURT: Well, you don't need to get involved in

rhetorical excesses at this point. The witness is

on the stand. He signed a declaration.

MR. LITT: He didn't sign this declaration.

MR. HARRIS: That is what I wanted to clear up in

the record. He pointed to the declaration of Andrew M. Lenarcic.

THE COURT: I thought we had exhibit C which is this

witness' declaration.

631

MR.FLYNN: We do, Your Honor.

Mr. Litt has interjected something foreign

to what we were discussing.

THE COURT: Didn't you sign this declaration, exhibit C?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Well I assume that is what we are talking

about, Counsel.

MR. LITT: That is my misstatement.

THE COURT: He is entitled to cross-examine as to

what he meant or what his words were and so forth, but I

think using the word "belonging" in this context -- in that

part of a question is a little ambiguous.

MR. FLYNN: I will narrow it, Your Honor.

Q You stated in your declaration, Mr. Vorm,

"I was aware at all times that these trunks were considered

to be personal property of Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard."

Is that correct?

A That is true.

Q Where did you get that awareness from?

A By the fact that these were Mary Sue's trunks

and that she had given me instructions on how to handle

them and she was the authority as far as where the material --

where they could go or if they could go anywhere.

632

Q Now, that was your awareness with regard to the

first trunk or first group of materials you gave to

Mr. Armstrong?

A That is true.

Q With regard to the second group of materials you

gave to Mr. Armstrong, what was your awareness with regard

to that group as to whether they were the personal property

of Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard?

A It would be the same

Q And where did you give the authority to give

those documents to Mr. Armstrong?

A From the new controller Gordon Cook.

Q During the period of -- between 1979 and 1981 do

you know what the line of authority was in the church

hierarchy from L. Ron Hubbard down?

A No.

Q If L. Ron Hubbard authorized Gerald Armstrong to

have the documents that you gave per Mr. Cook's order to

Omar Garrison, would that be authority in your awareness

superior to any other authority within the organization?

MR. HARRIS: I'll object to that, Your Honor. It is

compound; it also calls for speculation and is hypothetical

in form.

THE COURT: Well, it was hypothetical, certainly.

People can ask questions that are hypothetical.

I think it is somewhat ambiguous. And I think

you can reframe it and make it less compound.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Was Mr. Hubbard the supreme

633

authority within the Church of Scientology between 1979 and

1981?

MR. HARRIS: To this witness' personal knowledge, or

is he asking him as an expert?

THE COURT: I think the question now becomes ambiguous

because we have had testimony that about his writings and

how he might be the philosophical underpinning or the

theological underpinning of the church.

I think you ought to -- as to what matters? Are

we talking about control of these documents, or as to other

matters, spiritual matters, or what?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: With regard to your disposition

of materials from the controller archives you testified you

received one order from L. Ron Hubbard; is that correct?

A I assumed it to be from L. Ron Hubbard, yes.

Q Did you receive any other orders other than the

one that you recall from L. Ron Hubbard?

A They weren't really orders.

Q What were they?

A They were dispatches concerning the tape project

that was going on; various thoughts that he had about it and

how it was going, that type of thing.

Q Did he give you any instructions?

A Well, he said -- I believe he said I would

suggest something or another, that you do this, that type of

thing.

Q Did you consider that to be -- did you consider

L. Ron Hubbard, when you received that order, to be the

634

highest authority within the organization?

MR. HARRIS: That mischaracterizes --

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection. It hasn't

been established that he treated that as an order.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Is it your testimony, Mr. Vorm,

that you never received any other orders from L. Ron

Hubbard?

MR. HARRIS: Asked and answered, Your Honor.

THE COURT: It also characterizes what has not been

established yet.

I'll sustain the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Is there any document presently

under seal that in your awareness is the property of the

Church of Scientology?

A I think there is a corporate resolution or a

corporate establishment original down there. I am not sure

what corporation it is from. If I recall, it was CSC. But

I'm not positive about that.

Q Can you give me the date?

A No, I can't.

Q Can you give me any other information so we can

find it among the sealed documents?

A Well, it seemed -- if I recall it seemed to be

on legal-type paper, like it had the numbers down the side

type thing.

Q Do you know what it related to?

A I don't recall. It was like a corporate --

original corporate document.

635

Q And in your understanding or awareness that

belongs to the Church of Scientology; is that correct?

MR. HARRIS: He is using "belongs" again, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Is that the personal property of

the Church of Scientology?

MR. HARRIS: Corporate property of the Church of

Scientology or ecclesiastical property of the Church of

Scientology?

The problem is it is very ambiguous at this

point.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Where did it come from, Mr. Vorm?

A I don't know, sir.

Q Did it come from controller archives?

A It could have.

Q Could it have come from Guardian Office

archives?

A No.

Q Could it have come from the biographical

archives?

A It could have.

Q Can you name one other document?

A Which --

Q That, according to your understanding, is the

personal property of the Church of Scientology.

MR. HARRIS: Are we talking about the Church of

Scientology of California, the plaintiff here?

THE COURT: I assume we are talking about the

636

plaintiff.

MR. HARRIS: Very well. So modified, then, I would

have no objection.

BY MR. FLYNN: Can you name one other document,

Mr. Vorm?

A Not offhand; just from recall.

Also, would have a question about the legality

of ownership. I am not sure who owned legally some of the

documents here.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: The controller archives, is it

your understanding that the church owns the controller

archives?

A No.

Q Who owns those?

A I am not really sure. I don't think it is the

church.

637

Q Is it Mary Sue Hubbard or L. Ron Hubbard?

A Could be.

Q Well, whose possession have they been in?

A They have been in my possession.

Q Who do you work for?

A I work for a corporation called CST.

Q CST?

A That is right.

Q What corporation is that?

A Church of Spiritual Technology.

Q. Who gave the Church of Spiritual Technology

authorization for you to hold these documents?

A I don't know.

MR. HARRIS: If --

THE COURT: Are we talking about now or talking about

'77 to '81?

Were you working for CST at that time, too?

THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't.

THE COURT: Who were you working for at that time?

THE WITNESS: I believe it was Church of Scientology

of California.

THE COURT: When did you leave Church of Scientology

of California and become an employee of CST, if you did?

THE COURT: Approximately November '83.

THE COURT: You may continue, Counsel.

BY MR. FLYNN: So, is it your testimony that

in November 1983 CST was the possessor of the controller

archives?

638

A Well, I am not sure of the legal things on

it. All I know was I started getting paid another corporation

Q When you say you started getting paid, did you

get a disbursement voucher?

A Yes.

Q What did it say on it?

A Didn't say anything an it.

Q It was blank?

A Yes.

Q How do you know you started getting paid by

another corporation?

A that is what I was told, and also the checks

that -- our weekly checks that came in had CST written on

it.

Q You received checks?

A Yes.

Q Do you know whether Mr. Armstrong throughout

the period he was involved in the organization received cash?

A Well, I happen to handle finances for the

archives, so, therefore, I received one check in which I

disbursed to the staff. That is how I saw the check.

Q How long have you been involved with the

Church of Scientology.

A About eight years or so.

Q When did you first start receiving checks as

opposed to cash?

A For what?

Q For your pay.

639

A For my individual pay?

Q Correct.

A I never received checks for my individual

pay.

Q Well, you are now getting checks from CST?

A At the treasury terminal or person for the

area I work in.

Q Is that your pay?

A It is a combined pay of all the staff which I

then disburse to the staff.

THE COURT: Including yourself; is that what you are

saying?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: And when you pay yourself,

do you pay yourself by check or cash?

A Cash.

Q Where do those funds come from?

THE COURT: If you know.

MR. HARRIS: I will stipulate they come from a bank

account, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well --

MR. FLYNN: I will withdraw it, Your Honor.

Q Is it your testimony that the controller

archives are now in the possession of a corporation called

CST?

A I believe so. I don't have personal knowledge

of the agreement and that type of thing.

Q And is it your awareness that these documents

640

do not belong to CST?

MR. HARRIS: "Belong"; Your Honor?

THE COURT: Well, which documents.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: The controller archives that are

currently in the possession of the CST who, according to your

understanding, owns these documents?

A I don't know what to say to that. They are

still in my possession. As far as who owns them, it could

be Mr. Hubbard. I don't know for sure.

Q Who gives you orders with respect to the

documents, if anybody?

A What kind of orders? Like day-to-day orders

type things?

Q First, day-to-day orders.

A My immediate senior.

Q Who does he work for?

A I am not sure of his exact command lines. I

think it might be Mr. Spurlock.

Q Well does he work for Author Services Incorporated?

A Who?

Q Mr. Spurlock?

A Yes.

Q Is Author Services Incorporated a for profit

corporation?

A I don't know.

Q Does it handle all the business affairs of

L. Ron Hubbard?

A I don't have any personal knowledge about that.

641

Q But you do get day-to-day orders from

Lyman Spurlock; is that correct?

A No.

Q You got routine orders from Lyman Spurlock?

A No, I get no orders from Lyman Spurlock except

maybe very, very occasionally suggestions or something.

Q Did you just testify a few moments ago that

you get regular orders from Lyman Spurlock?

A No.

Q Do you know anything about Author Services Inc.?

MR. HARRIS: Know by personal knowledqe, Your Honor,

or hearsay?

MR. FLYNN: I will withdraw it, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Have you done any work for

Author Services Inc.?

THE COURT: If you know.

THE WITNESS: That I was paid for?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: With or without pay.

A I have gotten phone calls now and then from

them if I had certain things in the archives, which I would

go cheek and let them know.

Q Is there anyone between the command lines between

you and Lyman Spurlock?

A Yes.

Q Who?

A A person named Dan Pryzbilski.

Q How do you spell that?

642

A I am not sure. It is P-r-y-z-b-i-l-s-k-i,

something like that.

643

Q What is his position?

A He is the CO, LRH archives.

Q What does "CO" stand for?

A Stands for "commanding officer," the same as

executive director.

Q "LRH" stands for L. Ron Hubbard?

A That's right.

Q Where are those archives?

A They are with me.

Q Approximately how many pages of materials are in

those archives? A It is the same archives.

Q The same as the archives that Mr. Armstrong had?

A It is the same everything we are talking about.

The archives Mr. Armstrong had came into my

possession.

The controller archives are still in my

possession and the whole thing is called the LRH archives

now.

Q Meaning that they belong to L. Ron Hubbard?

MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, I'll object to the form of

the question.

THE COURT: Well --

MR. HARRIS: That is the title.

THE COURT: I suppose if that is a question, you can

answer that if that is what it means.

THE WITNESS: My understanding is that it means that

it contains materials pertaining to LRH, primarily his

644

writings and his published works.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Does it have his personal

materials also?

MR. HARRIS: The writings and published works may be

personal materials, Your Honor.

I object to the form of the question.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Describe, if you can, Mr. Vorm,

what is in LRH archives by categories.

A There is the original Dianetics Scientology

lectures; the written published materials, what you would

call the technical materials; what was described earlier in

the controller archives.

There is the Mary Sue trunks; there are the

materials that used to be in Mr. Armstrong's possession.

Q If I can stop you right there, that if the four

filing cabinets, you say?

A Well, I am a little bit confused on the four

filing cabinets. I am not sure if my answer yesterday --

what I was answering exactly on, on the four filing

cabinets. That is what I meant to be original materials.

As far as the other materials in there, I am not

sure whether they were copies or exactly what they were.

Q There were more than four filing cabinets that

came from Mr. Armstrong?

A Yes, there were.

Q Approximately how much more?

A Maybe three, four, five more filing cabinets and

some boxes, that type of thing.

645

Q How many boxes?

A Eight, ten, maybe more.

Q So in addition to the four filing cabinets you

testified about yesterday, there are now three to five more

filing cabinets and eight to ten, maybe, more boxes from

Mr. Armstrong's materials?

A Of things from there, yes.

Q Have those been inventoried?

A Not that I know of.

Q To your knowledge no person has inventoried

those materials?

A It is possible they have been. I am not sure.

It could have been done right at the start of this whole

thing.

Q Do you know of anyone who would have done it?

A Possibly Ken Long.

THE COURT: Can you say of your own personal knowledge

that of those two to three thousand pages that you described

of original materials under seal that there are no copies of

these within these other four to five filing cabinets and

eight to ten other bones?

THE WITNESS: I would be fairly certain of it. I have

been through it myself.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: You have been through it?

A Yes.

Q But you didn't inventory it?

A No.

Q Can you name one document in the two to three

646

thousand that may not be in those materials you just

described?

A Not without looking at the documents.

Q Was there any other materials that are now in

LRH archives other than what you have already described?

A I think that pretty well covers it.

Q Did the Omar Garrison documents go in there?

A Yes.

Q Now, approximately how many pages of material

you estimate are now in LRH archives?

A I have trouble estimating on the pages, exact

number of pages. I mean there are 15, 20 file cabinets,

30 -- maybe 50 file cabinets worth of materials plus 5,000

tape lectures.

Q How many boxes?

A Oh, boy. Probably 20, 30, something like that.

Q How big are the boxes?

A Standard, maybe banker's box-type.

Q A foot-and-a-half by two feet?

A Yes, something like that.

Q Have all of those materials been inventoried?

A No.

Q Would you estimate that the number of pages of

materials is in excess of 500,000?

A That might be a good figure.

Q Have you ever seen, in connection with your

duties, any orders stating who those materials belong

to, who owns them?

647

A Well --

MR. HARRIS: "Orders," Your Honor? I have an

objection to that characterization.

How about "communications"?

MR. FLYNN: I'll accept that.

Q Have you ever seen any communications from

anyone as to who owns those materials?

A Yes, I have.

Q What have you seen?

A I saw a paragraph that evidently came from a

dispatch that I was told was by Mr. Hubbard, saying that he

owned the materials, the technical materials.

Q What about the other materials?

A I haven't seen anything on that.

Q When did the dispatch come from Hubbard?

A I don't know.

Q Within the last year?

A No.

Q Two years?

A It would have to have been before 1980.

Q Before 1980?

A June 1980, yes.

Q Were these materials all collected in that

location in June 1980?

648

MR. HARRIS: "These materials"; ambiguous.

THE COURT: I will sustain it.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: What was your position in June

1980?

A Controller archives, IC.

Q So, the dispatch you say you saw in June 1980--

THE COURT: I think he said before, some time before

June 1980.

THE WITNESS: Right.

THE COURT: It had to be some time before June of

1980.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Your best memory was that it

was some time before June of 1980?

A Yes, that's correct.

Q Was it signed?

A No.

Q Was it in typewritten form?

A Yes.

Q What was on it?

A What was on --

Q Was there as R on it?

A No.

Q Were there any initials on it or was

L. Ron Hubbard's name on it?

A No.

Q It was just a typewritten form?

A Right.

Q And it was your understanding it came from

649

Hubbard?

A Yes, it was dated when I saw it that it came

from Mr. Hubbard,

Q And you accepted it as such as coming from him?

A I had no reason to question it.

Q Well, that was the routine, the command line;

is that correct?

MR. HARRIS: Well, what was -- "that" --

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: When you received communications

of that nature where there was no signature or initials on

it and you were told that it came from Hubbard, you accepted

it as such; is that correct?

A No, I wouldn't say that is correct.

Q You didn't accept it?

A Well I never received any communications

from Mr. Hubbard that were in the way you just described.

Q Well this communication you just testified

about was in addition to the other communication you received

in connection with the tapes?

A No.

Q The same communication?

A Well it wasn't a communication that I received.

Q Did you testify about a communication you

received where the letter R was on it?

A Yes.

Q This communication you just testified about

a moment ago where the communication said that these materials

650

belonged to L. Ron Hubbard, you testified, I believe, that

that did not have an R on it; is that correct?

A That is right.

Q So now there are communications which in

your understanding came from L. Ron Hubbard?

A That is right.

Q Did you testify earlier that there was only

that you have received from L. Ron Hubbard?

A Yes.

Q All right. Are there any additional ones that

you haven't told us about yet?

A No.

Q Who showed you that communication, the one that

came some time prior to June 1980?

A It was written in on the top of the program that

I received a copy of.

Q What was the program?

A I think it was a program to inventory the

materials in the archives or something like that.

Q In controller archives or all the archives?

A I think it was all the archives.

Q And do you know whether it went to someone else

besides you?

A The program or --

MR. HARRIS: Well that assumes facts not in evidence.

The witness has stated about three times, Your Honor, he only

received one that went to him. He saw this --

MR. FLYNN: I will withdraw it, Your Honor.

651

THE COURT: All right.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: This communication, did it have

a routing form up in the upper left-hand corner?

A Of the program?

Q Right.

A Yes, it did.

Q Tell the court what a routing form is.

A Well at the top of a dispatch, it is like this,

where you want the dispatch to go so you just put the person's

post title and draw and arrow to it or something like that.

Q And do you recall what the routing was on that

program?

A I think it was to C from a post title entitled

R Account.

Q To the controller from R Account?

A Yes.

Q R meaning L. Ron Hubbard?

A I believe so, yes.

Q Do you know what that office was, R Account?

A No, I don't.

Q Do you know where it existed within the

organization, physically?

MR. HARRIS: It assumes a fact not in evidence that

it was an office.

THE COURT: Well I believe he said it was an office.

MR. HARRIS: He said it was a post.

THE WITNESS: It was a post.

THE COURT: Not a post office?

652

THE WITNESS: No.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: You know that it was a post?

A Yes.

Q And do you know how many people worked on the

duties related to this post?

A Not exactly, no.

Q Do you know where the post was located?

A No.

Q At that time did you do an inventory?

A Not at that time, no.

Q When did you do one?

A A little bit later.

Q Approximately how long after that?

A Year and a half, maybe something like that.

Q Now when you did that inventory, did you do

it in connection with any lawyers?

A No.

Q Where is that inventory?

A It should be in my files, my post files.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, may that be produced?

THE COURT: Well, let's see. Is this of materials

that were in existence before the materials that you gave to

Mr. Armstrong or was this something that was done after

the materials -- when in point of time to the event we are

talking about here did this inventory occur?

THE WITNESS: I think it was done after.

653

THE COURT: Was that after -- before the materials

came back from Garrison?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: Was it before Mr. Armstrong left the

church, or after?

THE WITNESS: I think it was after.

THE COURT: And did this incorporate all the materials

that you had under your control in your job there at that

time?

THE WITNESS: Yes. But it was very general. It was

like -- almost like a number of pages, number of files for

the type of inventory as opposed to a specific item-by-item

inventory.

THE COURT: What would be the relevance of this? I am

having a little trouble putting it into perspective.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Was this inventory designed to

inventory all the materials that Gerald Armstrong left in

the biographical archives?

A No.

Q What was it designed to inventory?

THE COURT: If you know.

THE WITNESS: It was basically an inventory of

controller materials primarily.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: What color paper was it on?

A White.

Q Was it a Guardian Office program?

A No, it wasn't.

Q Do you know whether LRH accounts was a Church of

654

Scientology post?

A No, I don't.

Q You don't know?

A I don't know.

Q Your recollection is that the program was to

inventory all of the documents in controller archives; is

that correct?

A Yes, something like that. I can't remember the

exact --

Q Did you do the inventory?

A Yes.

Q And you previously testified you didn't do it in

connection with any lawyers; is that correct?

A That is true.

Q And did you inventory any materials that were

outside controller archives?

A Not with this particular inventory, no.

Q Did you do an inventory at that time of

materials outside controller archives pursuant to another

order?

A No.

MR. HARRIS: Excuse me. That is a

mischaracterization, "another" in respect to order, Your

Honor.

MR. FLYNN: Communication.

Q How many inventories have you done, Mr. Vorm?

MR. HARRIS: Of anything in his life, Your Honor?

MR. FLYNN: Of documents --

655

Q Between 1979 and the present time of documents

relating to the biography archives, the controller archives,

how many inventories have you done?

A Just this one, I believe. We are actually in

progress of putting together a computer index of the

technical materials, but that won't be a complete inventory

right now.

Q Has a computer index been made of the

biographical materials?

A I don't know.

Q Do you know anyone who would have knowledge

about that?

A Not offhand, no.

Q Well, the biographical materials are now all

under your possession in CST; is that correct?

A That is true.

Q Is anybody in there inventorying them?

A No.

Q To your knowledge has anyone ever inventoried

them?

A Well, I think I said earlier I think there might

have been something done when Gerry first left to go through

and try to make some kind of list up.

Q Who did that?

A I think it was Ken Long.

Q So that was an inventory that was done when

Mr. Armstrong left before lawyers became involved; is that

correct?

656

A I am not sure when the lawyers became involved.

Q Have you seen that inventory that Mr. Long did?

A I have seen pages of it or parts of it.

MR. FLYNN: May that be produced, Your Honor? That is

specifically relevant to when Mr. Armstrong left.

THE COURT: Is this still something that is within

your control over there?

THE WITNESS: No. I never had any control over that.

THE COURT: How did you happen to see it?

THE WITNESS: I think I was just over there in the

office for something when some work was being done on it.

THE COURT: Is this part of the matters under the

Church of Scientology of California's control?

THE WITNESS: I think it would be, yes.

THE COURT: Well, what is your position on this,

Mr. Harris?

MR. HARRIS: Since I know of no such thing, Your

Honor, I don't have a position. But I'll inquire and let

Your Honor know.

THE COURT: Maybe you can check with Mr. Long if he is

available and find out if there is such.

MR. HARRIS: Yes.

THE COURT: Let's take a 15 minute break.

(Recess.)

657

THE COURT: Very well, in the case on trial, let the

record reflect that counsel are all present. The witness

has retaken the stand.

State your name again for the record, sir.

You are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: My name is Tom Vorm.

THE COURT: You may continue, Counsel.

MR. FLYNN: A few more questions, Your Honor.

Q How many years have you been involved with the

organization?

MR. HARRIS: The "organization" meaning the religion

of Scientology, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Well, he's been there since '75; is that

right?

THE WITNESS: That is correct.

THE COURT: One position or another.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Did the Guardian's Office during

that period, if you know, handle public relations for

L. Ron Hubbard?

A I don't know.

Q Was there a post L. Ron Hubbard personal

public relations that also handled public relations for

L. Ron Hubbard?

MR. HARRIS: Well, "also."

MR. FLYNN: If you know.

MR. HARRIS: "Also," Your Honor.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection to the use

of the word "also."

658

MR. FLYNN: Strike the word "also."

Q Was there a post L. Ron Hubbard personal

public relations that handled public relations for L. Ron Hubbard

while you have been in the church?

A That was my understanding of the post title.

It was called LRH personal public relations.

Q Have you over been through the B-1 archives

relating to L. Ron Hubbard?

MR. HARRIS: The question assumes facts not in

evidence, to wit: That there is such a thing as B-1

archives.

MR. FLYNN: I will withdraw it.

Q Do you know anything about B-1 archives

relating to L. Ron Hubbard, Mr. Vorm?

A No, sir.

Q Have you ever heard of that term?

A No.

Q I take it then you have never seen any files

or documents from any such place?

A That is not true.

Q So you have seen files or documents from B-1

archives?

A I have never heard the term B-1 archives.

Q What term have you heard?

A B-1.

Q Have you seen files from B-1?

A Yes.

Q Relating to what?

659

A I went in there one time. I was trying to

recall what it was about. I think it was the question I

had regarding some group or another, whether we had any

information on them on who they were, what they were.

Q Do you remember when that was?

A That was around 1981, something like that.

Q And how big of a room was the room that contained

B-1 files?

A Oh, maybe about a quarter of the size of this

courtroom.

660

Q And filled with files?

A Rows of files; would be three or four rows of

files.

THE COURT: Well, so that if somebody wants to know,

the courtroom is 30 by 37, 30 feet by 37 feet.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Was that floor-to-ceiling,

Mr. Vorm?

A No. It is just file cabinet-size high.

Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not

B-1 files contain the master files relating to documents

belonging to L. Ron Hubbard?

A No, sir, I don't.

Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not

all the documents currently under seal are in the B-1 files?

A No.

Q You have no knowledge?

THE COURT: Your answer?

THE WITNESS: No, I don't.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: In 1981 when you went in there do

you know who was in charge of B-1 Bureau?

A I don't recall at that time, no.

Q Who gave you permission to go in there?

A I went in with a girl that I knew.

Q What was her name?

A Her name was Marsha Williams.

THE COURT: What does "B-1" signify?

THE WITNESS: Bureau 1 of the Guardian's Office.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: What does the Bureau 1 Office do?

661

MR. HARRIS: Objection, Your Honor; only if he knows.

THE COURT: If you know.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: If you know.

A My understanding is that it just collects

information on things the church was interested in.

Q Investigations in intelligence-type activities;

is that your understanding?

A Possibly. But I don't have any first-hand

knowledge of that.

Q Do you know whether there were any documents

under seal that came from the B-1 files?

A No, I don't.

Q Do you have any knowledge of the circumstances

under which the church conducts investigations?

A No, I don't.

Q Before you worked for CSC did you work for a

corporation called CSI?

A For a brief period. I am not sure how the

legalities go on it.

We were called CSI for a while and then I

believe CSC remunerated CSI.

Q Did you ever receive any payment vouchers from

CSI?

A I don't recall.

We were paid by CSI for a period of time.

Q Did you receive cash?

A For my individual pay, yes. I can't quite

recall if it was a CSI check. I guess it had to be a CSI

662

check that came in for our expenses and I got disbursed as

cash.

Q How long did you work for CSI?

A Around eight months, something like that.

Q So from November of '83 to the present you have

worked for CSC?

A Correct.

Q From November '83 back eight months, you worked

for CSI?

A No.

Q When did you work for CSI?

A It was a period from around March, '82 to around

December '82.

Q And between December '82 to November '83 who did

you work for?

A CSC.

Q Did you get disbursement vouchers for your pay

from CSI?

A Well, I don't think that the vouchers had

anything written on them.

The check came in from CSI. I disbursed the pay

myself and I just basically bought some disbursement

vouchers from the local stationery there. There was no

imprint on the voucher itself.

Q Have you ever seen any employment payment

vouchers for CSI with the name "CSI" embossed on them?

A No, I haven't.

Q Have you ever seen any wage vouchers with the

663

name CSC embossed on them?

A I don't recall.

Q Did you ever get a W-2 form from CSC?

A Yes.

Q Did you ever get a W-2 form from CSI?

A I don't -- it is possible, yes.

Q Did you get a W-2 form from CST?

A I think I did, yes.

Q Did you ever get a payment voucher that had the

name of any corporation written on it or embossed on it?

A I don't recall. It is possible.

664

Q Do you have any knowledge as to the relationship

of Mary Sue Hubbard, if any, to CST?

A No.

Q You have no knowledge one way or the other?

A No.

Q Do you have any knowledge one way or the other

as to the relationship of Mary Sue Hubbard to CSI?

A No.

Q How many different corporations have you worked

for in connection with your Scientology-related activities?

A Well, there was Celebrity Center, which I think

is a separate corporation; Church of Scientology of California;

and then the CSI, Church of Scientology International. I

am not really sure, as I say, about the technicalities of

that because at the end of the year, CSI was reimbursed for

all our pay and expenses, so I believe it would be

technically we were CSC for that period also and then for CST

at the present time.

MR. FLYNN: That is all I have, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Redirect examination?

MR. HARRIS: Yes, Your Honor.

I abide by my own rule, I don't know if it

is the court's rule, not to discuss the witness' testimony

while under cross-examination. I wonder if I could take

about three minutes to work out a bit of redirect with

Mr. -- just areas.

THE COURT: All right, take three minutes.

665

THE COURT: we are back in session.

You may continue.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. HARRIS:

Q Mr. Vorm, just so we can try to straighten out

the archives aspect, can you tell me, at the time that

Mr. Armstrong was at the church and had archives what

materials -- strike that.

Did you know the nature of the materials that

he had?

A Yes.

Q All right, now to the point where Mr. Armstrong

left the church were you aware of the materials that he had

that originally came from the trunks?

A Yes. I was fairly familiar with these.

Q Now, had there been -- you testified, as I

recall, that there was an inventory that came into your

possession of the items that were in the trunks.

A Yes.

Q And at the time that you gave the materials to --

you gave Mr. Armstrong materials on two separate occasions;

right?

A Yes.

Q On the second occasion that you gave materials

to Mr. Armstrong, did you use the inventory in order to

determine what he was going to be taking?

666

A Yes, I did.

Q What was done on that inventory?

A Well, as we went through the inventory, the

procedure for most of the transfer was that I would go

through the files and Gerry had the inventory. Then he was

checking off the items with a felt pen that he was going

to be taking so we would have some record of what left the

archives.

Q And this inventory with the markings on it

is presently in your files?

A Yes.

Q Did Mr. Armstrong check off items on the inventory

that he wanted originals of?

A Well, the whole transfer was basically

originals. It was primarily all original materials except

for the private correspondence and things that I wouldn't

give him.

667

Q All right, now, just so I can get this straight,

in the trunks were materials that you gave Mr. Armstrong

originals of?

A yes.

Q In the trunks there were also materials that

you gave Mr. Armstrong copies of?

A Yes.

Q Of the materials that you gave him only copies

of, what criteria did you use? In other words, why didn't

you give him the originals?

A Well, as I said yesterday, there were certain

items that I just considered very, very private, but that

under his insistence they would be needed, like a verification

of dates, that type of thing. I let copies go out on them.

Q I am showing you my copy of exhibit 10. I

didn't realize you had that here, too.

Was the communication from Mary Sue Hubbard

in exhibit 10 your guideline as to what documents were

personal?

A Yes.

Q Now, when Mr. Garrison -- maybe we should go

back and fix times here.

When did you become aware that Mr. Armstrong

had left the church?

A I think it was some time in December of '81,

possibly January '82.

Q And when if ever did you get the materials

that had been in Mr. Armstrong's archives?

668

A I am not sure of the exact date. I think it

was either the end of '82, the beginning of '83, some time

in that period.

Q The period of time from the time that

Mr. Armstrong left to the time that you had got the files that

had been in his area, do you know who had responsibility

for those files?

A I think they were under Mr. Lenarcic.

Q Now, during that period of time, that is when--

after Mr. Armstrong had left and before you got the files,

did you visit the Armstrong file area?

A Yes.

Q The chart I showed you yesterday which was

exhibit 12, the drawing of the archives area, in what

building was that?

A It is what we would call the main building.

It is the seventh story, main building of the Cedars complex.

Q And the Cedars complex, do you know what that

was prior to being a Scientology organization?

A Yes, it was the old Cedars of Lebanon Hospital.

Q Now when you visited the area where the

Armstrong archives were before you got those, where did you

go?

A I went to the same area that was on the chart.

Q At same point you received the Garrison

materials?

A Yes.

669

Q And when was that?

A The middle of '83 sometime. I'm not sure of the

exact date on that.

Q Now, when you received the Armstrong materials

did you go through them?

A I didn't right at first, no.

Q Did you at some time?

A Yes.

Q And when was that?

A A few months later.

Q And when you went through them -- well, strike

that.

Why did you go through them?

A I was looking for some particular document that

someone wanted to know if it was there or not. So I went

through all the materials.

Q How many times did you go through the materials

that were recovered from the Armstrong archives?

A I went through those once fully and then over a

period of whenever I got them, I probably have been into

them maybe 20, 30 times, looking for various items.

Q In the process of going through those, you never

prepared a written inventory?

A No.

Q The Garrison documents which you got in the

middle of 1983, is that your testimony?

A I think so, yes. I'm not sure of the exact

date.

670

Q When you received those documents did you go

through those?

A Not when I first got them, but I did go through

them.

Q When did you go through them in relation to the

time that you got them?

A It was a few months later. I'm not sure exactly

on that either.

Q For what purpose did you go through those?

A Through the Garrison documents?

Q Yes.

A I was looking for particular item.

Q How many times did you go through the Garrison

documents?

A Once fully.

Q And, again, on that occasion you did not prepare

a written inventory?

A Were you generally familiar with the documents

that were in both the Armstrong archives and the Garrison

materials that were returned by the time you saw the sealed

documents here?

A Yes. I was fairly familiar with them.

Q And when you -- how many times did you look at

the sealed documents here?

A I came down here twice.

A And did you make a cursory or thorough

examination on the times you came, if you understand

"cursory"?

671

A Some of it was cursory; some it was thorough.

It depended on what the particular item was that I was

looking at.

Q How did you come to your estimate of two to

three thousand documents, original documents that are under

seal that you do not have in archives?

A Well, from what I saw in the sealed documents,

the thing that caught my attention was actual originals that

I had given to Gerry in the first place. And those just

kind of stood out because I recalled giving them to him and

they had been in my archives for a while prior to that. And

I did not see them when I went through the Garrison stuff

previously and in a period of time that I had been into the

general category of Armstrong documents that had been given

to me earlier.

Q Yesterday you testified that you couldn't name

one document that was under seal that was an original that

you didn't have a copy of; could you tell me why you

couldn't name such?

A I just couldn't recall the exact name of the

document because I handled so many documents and there are

so many documents that are concerned in this case, what --

Like I say, what I testified to on the two to

three thousand were documents that caught my attention as I

was going through the file. But I didn't specifically

remember the names of those documents.

Q Do you have a present belief that if you had the

documents you could pull out ones like that?

672

A Yes.

MR. HARRIS: I have nothing further.

673

THE COURT: Any further cross?

MR. FLYNN: Just a couple, Your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. FLYNN:

Q Could you use an inventory to pull out the

ones you don't believe the organization has possession of that

are under seal?

A Probably some of them, but in some cases the

actual physical item itself is what caught my attention.

Q But you could use an inventory for some of them?

A Probably.

Q And you have possession of those inventories?

A Right here or where?

Q In your files.

A Which inventories?

Q The inventories that could show you what

documents the organization does not have possession of that

are under seal.

A No, I don't.

Q You have no such inventory?

A No.

Q You did have the inventory that you received

when you gave the materials to Mr. Armstrong from the trunk

which was checked off?

A Yes.

Q That inventory is in your files?

A Yes.

674

Q You do have an inventory of the sealed documents?

A No, I don't.

Q Have you had access to an inventory of the

sealed documents?

A I saw it once when it was first made and I saw

it one time since then.

Q Could you obtain access to this inventory and

compare it to the inventory that you had in the trunks?

A Yes, I could.

Q Have you done it?

A No.

Q And you don't know what is in the B-1 files

relating to L. Ron Hubbard?

A No.

Q You were asked a question about the guideline

that you used which was exhibit 10 with regard to what you

should give to Mr. Armstrong; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And as to the materials that you didn't give

to Mr. Armstrong per the second paragraph of exhibit 10,

you sent to the Special Unit at Gilman Hot Springs?

A No I did not.

Q Did they go to the Special Unit at Gilman

Hot Springs?

A No.

Q Where did they go?

A They remained with me.

Q Well, was your guideline that those materials

675

should go to the Special Unit for storage?

A No, not particularly.

Q Did you read exhibit 10 when you received it?

A Yes.

Q Would you read the second paragraph to yourself.

A (Reading.)

"So you will have to send over" -- to myself?

Q Well, read it out loud.

A (Reading.)

"So you will have to send over or repack

with the trunks all personal possessions and

things which really do not belong in archives

and route back to SU for storage until I can

get to it."

Q Did you consider that to be an order to send

those materials back to SU?

A After I had gone through them and sorted them

out, yes.

Q And did you do it?

A No.

Q And did you receive contrary orders not to

do it?

A Well, the paragraph at the bottom that says

"Thank you" was an additional short communication received

later which says basically to have the materials sent over

as they are gone through to Mary Sue.

Q At the Special Unit?

A No.

676

Q Where?

A I am not sure where she was at that time.

Q Did you do that?

A I did it on one occasion which was the original

two boxes of material that went to Mr. Armstrong.

Q Did you do it on any other occasion?

A No.

Q Why not?

A I was told that she was too busy to handle

that and it kept getting put off until she could get to it.

Q So you received orders from someone else that

you obeyed with regard to the disposition of these materials?

A With regard to whether should send them to

her at that time or later.

Q Now your testimony is you used exhibits 10-A,

a guidelines is that correct?

A Yes.

Q Would you look at exhibit 11, please,

specifically what is the fourth page of exhibit 11, the last

Xerox page.

Now, the back three pages of exhibit 11 were

instructions from Mary Sue Hubbard; is that correct?

A It was a letter from Mary Sue, yes.

Q Telling you on three pages what to do with the

materials; is that correct?

A Well I considered it to be more or less a --

she was telling me what her view should be as to where the

materials should be, who should be handling them, how they

677

were going to go, who was going to care for them, that

type of thing.

678

Q Well, these three pages, would you agree with

me, are much more extensive in terms of instructions of what

to do with the materials than exhibit 10?

A Not exactly. Because exhibit 10 was a

procedural matter.

This is a general guideline as to probably what

happened with the materials.

Q Did you follow the general guideline on

exhibit 11?

A Yes -- no. exhibit.

Exhibit 10, do you mean?

Q No; on exhibit 11.

A Well, I am not sure exactly what guideline you

are referring to. She doesn't really tell me to do

anything.

Q Does it give you instructions as to what to do

with what materials?

A No.

Q Was it attached to the front page of exhibit 11?

A Yes.

Q So when you sent exhibit 11 to the controller

Mary Sue Hubbard you received back the three-page letter

from Mary Sue Hubbard as to what to do with the material;

isn't that basically correct?

A No, it is not.

Q Where did you get the back three pages of

exhibit 11?

A That was in reply to an earlier communication I

679

sent to Mary Sue just informing her that there was this

project being done to sort our the archives at Worldwide.

And that is what she writes back, "It would be a

waste of time to go back laboriously and lay out what

happens with the archives and what should be done with

them."

Q Where is that document?

A Which document.

Q The document you sent to get instructions as to

what to do with the archives.

A It wasn't a document asking for instructions.

Q What was it?

A It was a note informing her that there was a

project going on to sort out the archives. This was what

was happening on it, just to let her know that this was

going on.

Q Where is that document?

A It is in my file.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, could we have that document

produced? We feel that would be a very important document

to the defense in this case.

THE COURT: All right. It will be ordered to be

produced.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: In response to that document you

got the back three pages of exhibit 11; is that correct?

A That is true.

Q If you turn to the last sentence on the bottom

of the third page, the top of the fourth page, it states

680

there ". . .then we come to the matter of personal materials

of the founder which would be of historical interest."

Do you see that?

A Uh-huh.

Q (Reading:)

". . .There has been no place

prior to this where such has been kept except

in the areas where he has lived and worked."

Do you see that?

A Yes.

Q Do you recall reading that back in 1980 when you

received it?

A Yes.

Q And then it goes on:

". . .So DC has or had all of

these files from when he was there. UK has

some of these files as evidenced by the list of

some of the materials which were indexed."

Do you see that?

A Yes.

Q And the last sentence:

". . .These are currently being

gathered up by LRH Personal Sec PRO Research

Unit"; do you see that?

A Yes.

Q So you knew in the summer of 1980 that Mary Sue

Hubbard knew that the LRH Per Sec PRO Research Unit was

gathering up all the personal materials of the founder; is

681

that correct?

MR. LITT: Of historical interest, Your Honor. That

is what the document says.

THE COURT: Whatever it says.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: You knew that, Mr. Vorm?

A Whatever it says I am aware of, yes.

Q So the second time that you sent materials to

Gerald Armstrong when you received permission from Gordon

Cook you knew that Mary Sue Hubbard had given you those

instructions in August of 1980; isn't that correct?

A That is not correct.

Q Did you receive this document dated August 26,

1980 in August of 1980?

A Yes.

Q And you read it?

A Yes.

Q Did you understand it?

A Yes.

Q Did you understand it to mean that the personal

materials of the founder which would be of historical

interest were going to go to the LRH Personal Sec PRO

Research Unit?

A I understood it to mean that these were being

gathered up by that unit.

Q You knew it came from Mary Sue Hubbard?

A Yes.

Q In preparation for your testimony have you

talked to Mary Sue Hubbard?

682

A No.

Q Do you know whether she has denied giving you

permission -- strike that.

In your affidavit you state that Mary Sue

Hubbard never gave you permission to give personal materials

of the founder; is that correct?

THE COURT: To the founder?

MR. FLYNN: Of the founder to Gerald Armstrong.

THE WITNESS: No, that is not correct.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: It doesn't say that?

MR. HARRIS: It says what it says. It is in evidence,

exhibit C.

THE COURT: This is cross-examination.

Let's get the document before the witness and

let the witness look at it.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Would you read paragraph No. 6 on

page 2?

683

THE COURT: Paragraph 6.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, doesn't it say there,

Mr. Vorm, that:

"Although I was uncomfortable with

this" -- namely, giving materials to Gerald Armstrong

which you say you gave at his insistence -- "as I knew

that much of the material pas the personal

possession of Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard, I felt

obliged under the circumstances to provide the

material to Gerry Armstrong. At no time, so

far as I am aware, did either Mr. or Mrs. Hubbard

personally approve this procedure, but in their

absence the situation was confused and I did not

know what else to do."

A Right.

Q Did you state that under oath?

A Yes, I did.

Q And you knew when you stated that, did you

not, that Mary Sue Hubbard had written the back three pages

of exhibit 11?

A That is true.

Q Approving or knowing that the materials were

going to the LRH Per Sec PRO Research Unit.

MR. LITT: Objection; the materials --

THE COURT: Well, it is argumentative. We know what

is in the letter.

MR. FLYNN: That is all I have.

684

THE COURT: Anything further?

MR. HARRIS: I have nothing further, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. You may step down. I am

excusing/you subject to your being on call in the event that

your further testimony is required in relation to these other

documents that are going to be produced, sir.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, if I can interject, we have

just been served with an application for a stay of these

proceedings which has just been filed in the Supreme Court

of the State of California.

They have filed on this past Wednesday a

similar application in the Appeals Court and on page 3

of the application, the plaintiff and intervenor has

stated that, "Both the Superior Court and the Court of

Appeals refused to grant petitioner's request to stay the

trial pending a ruling on the petition for writ of mandate

and/or prohibition."

To my knowledge, Mr. Litt represented to this

court on Monday that they had not and were not asking this

court to grant a stay of these proceedings.

MR. LITT: Let me clarify the situation. It was our

understanding from the court's ruling that the matter would

be continued until yesterday and there would be no further

continuances. That the court would not entertain a stay.

We said we might seek, but we would not come

back to this court on Thursday and seek a further stay. If

we got a further stay, we'd get it from the Court of Appeals.

It was our understanding that this court would not grant a

685

stay.

I think the representation is an accurate

representation of what has gone on. We have returned on

Thursday. We are proceeding. If the Supreme Court deems

fit to grant any of the relief we seek, fine. This is

perfectly normal procedure. I don't understand what the

problem is.

THE COURT: Well, I did say that the case was going

to proceed on Thursday short of actually receiving an order

staying from the Court of Appeal or some Appellate Court.

So, while that isn't I suppose, expressly a denial of a

quote stay, I think that is a fair implication of what I

was saying.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I understand that there was

a motion for a continuance, but I also understood Mr. Litt

to say very specifically on Monday that he was not applying

to this court for a stay.

MR. LITT: What I was meaning to stay, if there was

any confusion, is we were not going to come back to the

court on Thursday and say, "Your Honor, we want a stay to go

to the Court of Appeals."

We indicated at the time that we might seek

relief in the Court of Appeals, and what I was saying was

we are not going to come back to this court and try to continue

again on that basis and we have not done so, and that was

certainly my intention, and I took it as the court has indicated

that the court would not grant the stay, and we construed

what had occurred here as a denial by this court of the stay.

686

I think that was a fair reading, as the court has said, and

I don't understand what the problem is.

MR. FLYNN: The problem is, Your honor, we are in the

middle of a trial where in these pleadings they have laid

out that they requested continuances which are, I submit,

different than a request far a stay pending an emergency

appellate review of a claimed constitutional issue. The

continuances were predicated upon taking the deposition of

Laurel Sullivan and reviewing the documents that are under

seal. That was the specific reason that was given for the

motions for a continuance, and, in fact, Mr. Litt represented

to the court that he had not been down and examined the

documents because he thought that they were private.

In fact, over the next three days Mr. Litt

hardly attended and reviewed the documents.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, please. I spent the rest

of the day Tuesday and a good portion of the day Wednesday.

I had people down there working and getting me notes.

I wish Mr. Flynn would just confine himself to

what the issue is.

THE COURT: I assume that what is bothering Mr. Flynn

is he now has to get some kind of response over to the

Supremes and the problem I have is we are proceeding to

trial, so I don't really know that there is anything else

before me.

MR. LITT: May I just explain the normal procedure.

Mr. Flynn perhaps is not aware. I know that this court is.

That is that a petition is filed. If the court wants a

687

reply if it is not going to summarily deny the petition,

then it establishes a timetable for the reply.

A letter has already been prepared by

Ms. Dragojevic's office in response to the writ in the Court

of Appeals. With a change of title, the same letter can be

submitted by them to the Supreme Court if they choose to do

so. Obviously from our point of view if we are going

to seek relief, we have to do it as rapidly as possible.

That I think is apparent. I don't think there is anything

wrong with what has been done here. It is a perfectly

normal procedure when you are seeking relief.

MR. FLYNN: The problem I have got is a procedural

problem. Mr. Litt requested two continuances of the court for

reasons that have nothing to do with seeking a legal

review.

688

Now, he has informed the Appellate Court that he

tried to get a stay for this reason before this court, not

for continuance on the ground submitted, but a stay to get

an appellate review on these claimed constitutional issues.

And that was never brought up before this court.

THE COURT: Well, this is not the forum to be making

that point. This is the forum to be trying the case.

Let's continue with our trial.

MR. FLYNN: We are prepared to continue. But we are

in the posture of where these papers have been filed in the

Appellate Court where they blatantly mischaracterize what is

going on here. There was never a request to stay pending

appellate review.

THE COURT: I suppose that is accurate.

It would have been denied if it had been

requested.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, we said we were going to go to

the Court of Appeals. And the court said --

THE COURT: You said you might.

MR. LITT: We were considering it. And Your Honor

said if there is an order from the Court of Appeal, the case

will be stayed; otherwise, it will not. We took that as a

denial of the stay on this issue.

The court has just said that is a fair reading

of it.

I don't think we have made any

misrepresentations to anybody.

If Mr. Flynn is requesting a brief adjournment

689

to prepare a letter to go to the Supreme Court, then he

should make that request; otherwise, I don't know what we

are discussing.

MR. FLYNN: We are ready to proceed, Your Honor.

We are discussing the fact that we feel we have

been sandbagged.

MR. HARRIS: Once we start talking about that, Your

Honor, there has been some blatant misrepresentations made

by Mr. Flynn to this court in his opening statement

yesterday. So let's not get into it.

I guess what I am trying to say --

THE COURT: Call your next witness.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, let me ask the court how it

wishes to proceed.

The next item of evidence that we'll present is

what we'll read into the record, a variety of statements

made by Mr. Armstrong in the course of his depositions.

I don't think that we'll complete that in the

next half hour. We can begin, if the court wishes, and

complete it after lunch.

THE COURT: You may begin it.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, Mr. Armstrong is available

here for testimony. Is this being read in to impeach him?

THE COURT: Under the Code of Civil Procedure they can

use the testimony of a party given in a deposition for any

lawful purpose. And they are offering it, apparently, as it

may be an admission of some aspect of the case. It may be

to show some other evidentiary element that is relevant to

690

their case in chief. So I assume that is why they are

proposing to read this in this fashion. They don't have to

put the witness on the stand since he is a party to the

lawsuit.

MR. LITT: Your Honor, if I may just explain

procedurally how I'll do this, I have organized these

materials in as logical a way as I could. So they are not

organized in the way that they appear in the deposition.

What I'll do is read into the record -- these

are all from depositions of Mr. Armstrong taken in this

case. I'll read into the record the date of the transcript

from which I am reading and the beginning line and when I

finish reading, I'll say the ending line. Unless the court

has some other method which --

THE COURT: I am a little concerned. I don't know.

Counsel has to maneuver back and forth around with,

apparently, three different transcripts.

MR. LITT: I have available for both the court and

counsel, if it wishes, copies. I would like the copies

returned to me, but I can provide them for purposes of

following.

Would the court also like a set?

691

THE COURT: Yes, I was wondering if you are just

going to be reading and you have these all excerpted, maybe

the reporters could just transcribe those from the copies

rather than attempt to take it as you are reading it.

MR. LITT: I can certainly provide it to the reporters

for their reference. I think they could follow it. It

moves around quite a bit.

THE COURT: Would the reporter prefer to just copy

it from those documents or would you want to go ahead and

take it?

REPORTER HARRIS: Both.

MR. LITT: Would Your Honor like a set?

THE COURT: It would be helpful.

MR. HARRIS: As I get bored, Your Honor, with people

reading things in the record, may I be excused?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. LITT: The ones that are turned to the side are

just because they were recently added so I wanted to make

sure when I came to them they were in the right place.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. LITT: Deposition of August 17, 1982, line 9.

THE COURT: You probably should say the page, also.

MR. LITT: I am sorry. Page 12:

"Q Mr. Armstrong, let's back up

for a moment.

"When did you begin your career with

Scientology?

"A 1969.

692

"Q In what capacity did you start with

Scientology?

"A I read some books.

"Q How did you become affiliated with

the religion of Scientology?

"A I went to a -- what they called

in those days a franchise in Vancouver, and I

enrolled in the course.

"Q Which course was that?

"A That was the -- called the

Communications Course.

"Q Is that an introductory course to

Scientology?

"A Yes."

Ends at line 21.

Deposition of August 17 1982, page 19,

beginning at line 10 and continuing onto page 20 ending at

line 4:

"Q Did you apply for membership?

"A Yes.

"Q When was that application processed?

"A From the first I received some

promotional materials from the Sea Organization,

that was the first step. And then I went to

Los Angeles and I signed my contract.

"Q What was that contract all about?

What was contained in it?

"A It was a billion-year contract

693

in which I agreed to support the goal, the

purpose of the Sea Organization, which I

believe was the creation or maintaining or

whatever of highly functioning Scientology

and Dianetics organizations.

"Q Do you have any specific recollection

of that or are you guessing at this point?

"A No, I have some good recollection.

I can't say verbatim, but that is pretty close.

It is a half a page of document.

"Q How long were you in the Sea

Organization?

"A Ten months -- ten years and about

ten months.

"Q When was the last date that you

were a member of the Sea organization, as far

as you are concerned?

"A December 12th -- around there. It

took a day or so to get all of my materials

out, but that is really it."

Deposition of September 19, 1983, page 152

lines 6-8.

"Q Prior to that, you had been a

Scientology staff member; right?

"A Broadly, yes."

Deposition of January 14, 1983, page 16,

beginning at line 12 and continuing onto page 17, ending at

line 2:

694

"Q Well, when did you assume a staff

position?

"A Okay. 1969.

"Q How old were you at the time?

"A Twenty-three.

"Q What position was that?

"A I gave introductory lectures.

"Q Where?

"A In Vancouver."

Deposition of January 14, 1983, page 46, beginning

at line 27, continuing on to page 47,ending at line 1.

"Q After January 1980, what position

did you assume?

"A I became the LRH Pers PRO Researcher."

And it is repeated, spelled out.

Deposition of August 17, 1982, page 123,

beginning at line 21, continuing unto page 124 through line 17:

"Q Well, when you first got started,

the archives was a new project then, wasn't it?

"A Yes.

"Q How did you come to be assigned

to that project?

"A I petitioned L. Ron Hubbard.

"Q Was the project basically one of

your creations?

"A Basically, yes.

"Q You saw a need and thought it had

to be fulfilled and thought you were the right

695

man for the job isn't that true?

"A Yes.

"Q What did you say to Mr. Hubbard in

your petition?

"A I laid out what I wanted to do,

that I wanted to get the biography written,

that I had found some of his materials and

so forth. I asked him if I could do the job,

and he responded and said 'Yes.'

"Q And then at some point you wrote to

Mary Sue Hubbard and explained what you were doing

on the project, didn't you?

"A Yes.

"Q What was her reaction to your letter?

"A Her reaction was that -- I don't

recall her exact answer. It was a favorable,

you know, thing. She was glad that it was being

done. I believe she mentioned that there was also

other archives around and I should strike up a

liaison with those people."

Deposition of January 14, 1983, page 53,

beginning at line 11, continuing through all of page 54,

all of page 55, and page 56 through line 11:

"Q And what is your understanding of what your

job function was in assuming this position?" --

referring to the researcher position.

"A I was to assemble documentation for

a biography to be written about L. Ron Hubbard.

696

"Q Who was writing the biography?

"A We did not have a writer.

"Q Well, were you aware of the existence

of some plan to try to obtain a writer?

"A Yes.

697

"Q How did you become aware of that?

"A I knew about that in

conversations with Laurel Sullivan.

"Q And in the petition what were

your reasons for suggesting that you be

assigned to this post?

"A It was an area in which I had a

lot of interest. I felt that I was fairly good

at research-type activities. I had already put

in about nine years of service. That's about

it.

"Q And I take it you felt that you

could assist in bringing about this

biographical project by your participation?

"A Yes.

"Q And also assist in gathering

various materials to be displayed concerning

Mr. Hubbard's life and work?

"A Yes.

"Q And were you enthusiastic about

the project at the time?

"A Yes.

"Q Did you feel that it would be of

value to Scientology and to Mr. Hubbard's work

at the time?

"A Yes.

"Q Were there various people that

you copied in on your petition?

698

"A Yes.

"Q Do you remember who or what

posts?

"A I believe they were principally

those people who were my seniors at that time,

DCO HU, CO HU, Pers PRO. There may have been

more.

"Q And would it be fair to say that

you were, as you understand it, assigned to

this post in order to help to develop

Scientology and Mr. Hubbard's work?

"A Yes.

"Q That was your understanding? In

fact that was your intention; right?

"A Yeah.

"Q You would not have been assigned

to this post if you were not a Scientologist;

correct?

"A I can't say that.

"Q Give me your opinion based on

your experience.

"A (No response.)

"Q You can't give an opinion?

"A No. I think that any outsider

would have done it just as well.

"Q No. I'm not asking whether you

could have performed it. I am asking whether

you would have been assigned to it.

699

"A I don't know.

"Q Well, let me ask you a question:

Do you know of anybody who was ever assigned to

a position within the Scientology structure

that was not a Scientologist?

"A Omar Garrison, who's writing the

book.

"Q No, no, no. Do you have any

information that Omar Garrison was assigned to

a Scientology post?

"A Oh, if it were a Scientology

post, then it would have to be a Scientologist.

"Q Well, this was a Scientology

post, wasn't it?

"A It was a brand new thing.

"Q Did you consider it a Scientology

post?

"A Yes. But it need not have been.

That's all I'm saying.

"Q Mr. Armstrong, answer my

question. As I told you before, your lawyer

will have an opportunity to ask you whatever he

wants at the time.

"You considered it a Scientology

post; is that correct?

"A Yes.

"Q You petitioned for it on the

basis of your experience of what procedure one

700

would go through to try to get assigned within

the Scientology structure to such a post; is

that correct?

"A Yes.

"Q And in all the years you were in

Scientology, you never observed anyone who was

not a Scientologist get assigned to a

Scientology post; correct?

"A Correct."

The deposition of January 14, 1983, page 57;

lines 18 through 24.

(Reading:)

"Q So the point is that you

understood that in your being assigned to this

post, you were trying to help Scientology and

Mr. Hubbard?

"A Yes.

"Q And you understood that,

obviously, if that wasn't your intention, you

wouldn't have been assigned to this post?

"A Yes."

The deposition of January 14, 1983, page 56,

lines 21 through 25:

"Q You were transferred from one

position within the Scientology structure to

another position within the Scientology

structure after your petition was granted; is

that correct?

701

"A Yes."

The deposition of September 19, 1983, line --

actually, beginning at the end of line 15, going through

line 23:

"Q Isn't it a fact that if there had

been an order by an organization senior,

whether signed by L. Ron Hubbard or not, that

removed you from your post, you would have been

gone from your post; isn't that true?

"A I -- the thing is would it ever

have occurred?

"Q No. The thing is if it had

occurred, wouldn't you have been gone?

"A If it had occurred, I would have

been gone."

702

Deposition of January l4, 1983, page 52,

beginning at line 25 and continuing onto page 53, at line 4:

"Q Well, was there someone that, in

carrying out this position, you in fact reported

to?

"A Yes.

"Q Who was that?

"A Laurel Sullivan.

"Q What was her position at that time?

"A She was the senior LRH Personal

Public Relations Officer."

Deposition of September 19, 1983, page 232,

beginning at line 16 through line 27:

"Well, was there anybody who was supposed

to review your work? I mean, are you telling

me that you wrote weekly reports, and whoever

upline, so to speak, was interested would look at

it, but there was nobody organizationally

responsible?

"A No, there may have been, but I never

saw the person or had anything to do with the

person.

"Q Well, one person was Laurel, right?

"A Yeah.

"Q She was organizationally responsible

as being your senior?

"A Yeah.

Deposition of January 14, 1983, page 61,

703

beginning at line 22 and going through page 62, through line

"Q Now, tell me about the post,

talking now about the senior PERS PRO Researcher

post. After you assumed that position, what steps

did you take to begin to carry it out?

"A I began to assemble material

connected with L. Ron Hubbard.

"Q And how did you go about trying to

assemble such material?

"A I went -- I found a number of

boxes which were stored on the property at

that time, and I brought them over to the

Public Relations Bureau.

"Q Where was the Public Relations

Bureau?

"A That was in the building called

the Massacre Canyon Inn. It was an office

adjoining the dining room in that building.

"Q Was that in Gilman Hot Springs?

"A Yes."

Deposition of January 14, 1983, page 66, lines

12 through 19:

"Q R Storage was personal storage

of a variety type of things of Mr. Hubbard;

is that right?

"A That's right.

"Q Also Mrs. Hubbard?

704

"A Yes.

"Q Both of their possessions of various

kinds were kept there and maintained there

together; right?

"A Yes."

Deposition of January 14, 1983, page 74, beginning

at line 11 going through all of page 75 and all of page 76.

"Q What was the total number of

boxes removed from R Storage pursuant to this

effort that you have described?

"A I recall I would say about 21, 22,

23 boxes.

"Q At some point were these materials

removed from where Miss Sullivan had placed

them and taken some place else?

"A Yes.

"Q When was that?

"A That was -- I believe it would

be in late February of 1980.

"Q How many boxes were removed at

that time?

"A All of those boxes.

"Q You had already gone into the

R Storage by then?

"A Yes.

"Q And where were they removed to?

"A They were removed to the Cedars Complex.

"Q Where in the Cedars Complex?

705

"A On the first floor.

"Q Some particular office?

"A Yes. There was an office on the

east side.

"Q Was it somebody's office?

Was it somebody else's office?

"A It was Laurel's and my office.

"Q Did Laurel have offices both at

Gilman Hot Springs and at Cedars?

"A Yes, she did.

"Q And were you the person who transported

them?

"A Yes.

"Q And did you have to go through some

procedure before removing them from Laurel's

office at Gilman Hot Springs and transferring

them to Cedars?

"A No.

"Q Did you get permission from anyone

to do that?

"A It was ordered by Laurel.

"Q She initiated the order?

You didn't suggest it?

"A No.

"Q 'No' doesn't -- I'll ask it again.

Did you suggest that this be done?

"A I don't believe so.

"Q Did Laurel initiate the idea?

706

"A To my recollection, yes.

"Q And is that where the documents were

maintained, in that office, until the time that

you left?

"A No.

"Q Were they at some point moved someplace

else?

"A Yes.

"Q Where?

"A To another office in the Cedars

Complex.

"Q Whose office?

"A This was Laurel's office.

"Q A different office? Laurel's office

was moved someplace else?

"A Yes.

"Q All right. Other than that move,

were they maintained in the same office during

the time that you remained?

"A There were movements within that

one office.

707

"Q Physically moving the boxes from

one portion of the office to another?

"A Yes.

"Q Now, what other documents did you

collect that were in the possession of the

church or on church property -- and I am using

'church' broadly, any property that was

Scientology property -- pursuant of this

project?

"A Documents from controller

archives.

"Q When did you get documents from

controller archives?

"A There were two occasions. One

was -- one was in early 1981, maybe May or so

of 1981 and one was later in the year in 1981.

The second occasion involved a number of -- a

number of trips to controller archives because

there was a number of documents involved."

Deposition of January 14, 1983, beginning at

line 28 of page 80, going through all of page 81 and page 82

to line 25:

"Q From what other church property

did you gather up materials?

"A From what's called Pers Sec

files.

"Q And where were those files kept?

"A Pers Sec files were kept in my

708

area in the Pers PRO Bureau in Los Angeles.

"Q And that was under the authority

of Laurel?

"A Yes.

"Q And how much material did you

obtain from there?

"A 20 boxes; 20, 30 boxes.

"Q What is the nature of that

material?

"A Those were Mr. Hubbard's personal

files which Pers Sec maintained.

"Q Can you give me an idea of the

nature of the files, what kind of topics they

dealt with?

"A They dealt with Mr. Hubbard's

family, correspondence with his family, pre-

Dianetics and Scientology materials, writings,

communications two and from the Guardian's

office; there were awards; there was

correspondence with Expose Club, with groups of

which he was a member, that sort of thing.

"Q Did these materials relate to any

particular time period?

"A All time periods from prior to

his birth onwards.

"Q And what were the materials that

you got from the controller archives? Can you

describe the nature of those materials?

709

"A They were some of Mr. Hubbard's

writings, some materials to do with places

where he had lived, to do with correspondence

with various companies, with photographic

places, with just about anything that -- I

don't know.

"Q Were there letters between

Mr. Hubbard and family members and friends in

the controller archives materials?

"A Yes.

"Q Describe those for me.

"A Letters between Mr. Hubbard and

Mary Sue, between Mr. Hubbard and his father,

his mother, between Mr. Hubbard and friends.

That's it.

"Q How large a portion of this four

linear feet were these letters?

"A Very small, probably probably

three or four inches.

"Q And describe for me the personal

letters between Mr. Hubbard and family or

friends that were in what you described as the

Pers Sec materials or files.

"A These was letters between him and

his children, between him and his agent,

between him and friends, associates, between

him and organizations.

"Q The letters between Mr. and

710

Mrs. Hubbard -- Mary Sue I am referring to --

that are presently under seal, where did they

come from?

"A Which ones?

"Q Well, all of them. If different

ones came from different places, describe them

as best you can for me.

"A Okay. Some of them from

R-Storage and some of them from controller

archives, some of them are Pers Sec files."

Deposition of January 14, 1983, page 84

beginning at line 24 and going through all of page 85 and

through page 856 up to line 13:

"Q Now, in addition to gathering

information from Scientology facilities, as I

understand it, you also gathered documents,

other things from private individuals; is that

correct?

"A Yes.

"Q And you purchased documents or

photographs or memorabilia from various private

individuals?

"A Yes.

"Q How were these materials paid

for?

"A Cash.

"Q Where did you get the cash?

"A Either from Sea Org Reserves or

711

from the CMO.

"Q And were you gathering up such

private materials throughout this whole period

of time of 1908 and 1981?

"A No.

"Q When did you begin that?

"A When I -- whenever I encountered

some materials in the course of my work.

"Q When did that start?

"A Me in 1980.

"Q And did you take some trips in

order to go about purchasing these materials?

"A I purchased material on those

trips.

712

"Q Were you performing other functions

as well on those trips?

"A Yes.

"Q What other functions?

"A Research, biographical research.

"Q What type of research?

"A Interviews, going through public

records, geneology study.

"Q Now, during these years 1980 and

1981, did you receive any salary of any type

while you were carrying out these activities?

"A I was paid an allowance.

"Q Standard allowance for a C Org member?

"A Yes.

"Q You were a Sea Org member, right?

"A Yes.

"Q And you were provided room and

board?

"A Yeah.

"Q And you were provided Scientology

services?

"A Yeah.

"Q In other words, the normal arrangement

for somebody who was a staff member for a

Scientology organization?

"A Yes."

THE COURT: Well you have come to a change in scenario

here, so I think we will take a recess. I have got a medical

713

appointment I have to keep, so I am going to recess until

1:45.

(The noon recess was taken

until 1:45 p.m. of the same day.)

714

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, MAY 4, 1984; 1:47 P.M.

---0---

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, if I may just clarify a point

of procedure --

THE COURT: Let the record reflect that counsel are present.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, this practice of reading from

a deposition transcript or portions thereof when a party is

in the courtroom, we have checked the rule and find it to be

a somewhat novel rule under California procedure. But in

any event --

THE COURT: We like to be novel.

MR. FLYNN: In any event, in checking through the

transcript at the lunch break, I find that the selection of

these portions without reading other portions is presenting

inaccurate testimony in the extreme with regard to some of

the fundamental issues in this case.

For example, on the very next page with regard

to the Scientology post structure, Mr. Armstrong is asked

more specifically what the Sea Organization is. And he

specifically states it is the unit that works personally for

L. Ron Hubbard.

And then there are many other areas throughout

the deposition transcript where specific references are made

to items such as that with regard to the structure of the

organization. And on many other issues Mr. Litt has

selected portions totally out of context which I say are

inaccurate in the extreme.

715

THE COURT: Well, Counsel, we have got a daily

transcript here apparently and you have got the full transcript.

You will have an opportunity when the case turns over to

the defense to present what you want to present, either from

the direct testimony of the witness or from reading other

excerpts from the deposition to put something in context.

He has a right to present his case as he sees fit.

MR. FLYNN: As I understand it, Your Honor, in reading

this rule, there is some ambiguity in my mind whether I can

then read portions of the transcript that I see fit to read

at the conclusion of his having read what he's read or

whether I have to -- and am I entitled to call Mr. Armstrong

at the end of his having read from the transcript in his case

because as I understand the rule, he's made Mr. Armstrong his

witness by reading portions of the transcript.

THE COURT: I don't think so. I don't think he's

made him his witness. He is reading excerpts for the

purpose of presenting his case.

It may be that there are things taken out of

context. It may be they are not. I don't know, but it seems

to me you will have a full opportunity in your case to

develop that. He has the right to develop his case as he

sees fit.

MR. FLYNN: So at the conclusion of his reading

these transcripts, will I be able to read portions of the

transcript?

THE COURT: Well I don't know. If he has an objection,

I will have to sustain the objection.

716

MR. LITT: We would object to that, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I would sustain the objection.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor will note -- I guess we don't

have to note objections.

THE COURT: I guess we will continue.

MR. LITT: Before we begin, there is one matter we

discussed earlier that Mr. Flynn would produce for us from

Miss Sullivan letters between Miss Sullivan and Mrs. Hubbard,

and I don't have those yet and I just wanted.

THE COURT: Mrs. Hubbard?

MR. LITT: Letters between Laurel Sullivan and

Mrs. Hubbard.

MR. FLYNN: I will have them copied this afternoon,

Your Honor.

We are also waiting for the document that had

the portion cut off it to be marked as one of the exhibits,

the CSW that Mr. Armstrong referred to and Mr. Harris brought

up that had the bottom portion cut off and they have the

original.

MR. LITT: I will have to check with Mr. Harris on

that.

THE COURT: We will have to deal with it one step

at a time.

MR. LITT: Will I have copies of those by the end of

the day?

MR. FLYNN: Yes, as long as I have them with me and

among all these papers I assume I have them with me.

THE COURT: You may continue, Counsel.

717

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.

From the plaintiff's first set of requests

for admissions dated August 6, 1982 question No. 28 is as

follows:

"That in making copies of materials

contained in the Archives Project, Defendant,

Gerald Armstrong, used supplies and equipment

that was the property of Plaintiff, the Church

of Scientology of California."

From the response to the first set of requests

for admissions propounded by plaintiff Church of Scientology

dated August 23, 1982, response to request No. 28 which I

have just read, "admit."

Now, returning to the transcript, this is

from the transcript of September 19, 1983, beginning at

line 9 of page 224, and continuing through page 225, line 8.

718

"Q Who paid you during the time you

were archivist?

"A What do you mean by pay?

"Q Well, okay. You got a weekly

stipend of cash; is that right?

"A That is correct.

"Q Where did you get that from?

"A From the -- what is called the

special unit.

"Q That is out at Gilman Hot

Springs?

"A That is correct.

"Q And you got it the same as

everyone else who was out at special unit?

"A Basically, yes.

"Q It came from the same place,

right?

"A I can't say that.

"Q Okay. But the same person? How

did it work? Would you get an envelope with

money in it every week?

"A Yes.

"Q Who would give it to you?

"A Gary Press.

"Q And Gary Press held a position of

treasury/secretary international; right?

"A I don't know what he held at the

time. It was something like that. I don't

719

know what the exact post was.

"Q He controlled the money out there

anyway, right? He was the --

"A That is correct. To some he

disbursed the money. Where it came from, I am

not sure. My understanding, he was part of

something called F & P Consultants."

From the transcript of January 14, 1983, page 87

beginning at line 24 and continuing on to page 88 and ending

at line 19:

"Q Going back to the R Storage for

the moment, was it your understanding that it

contained the private materials of Mr. and

Mrs. Hubbard?

"A At the time I only thought of

Mr. Hubbard as having anything to do with those

materials.

"Q Having subsequently gotten into

it, did you find things that were

Mrs. Hubbard's among those materials?

"A Yes.

"Q Did you find anything else of

Mrs. Hubbard's in LRH Pers Sec files?

"A Yes.

"Q In your experience in Scientology

would Mrs. Hubbard have had the authority to

take anything out of those materials if she had

wished to? I am referring now to the R

720

Storage, the controller archives and the LRH

Pers Sec materials.

"A Yes.

"Q Would anybody not acting on

behalf of one of them have had such authority?

"A No."

From the transcript of January 14, 1983

beginning at line 28 and continuing -- I am sorry -- page --

line 28 of age 79 and continuing to page 80 through line 11:

"Q You heard Mary Sue's explanation

on Tuesday of how the controller archives

originally came into being; is that right? Do

you recall that?

"A Maybe you can state it again.

"Q She testified that they were

originally made up of trunks of materials that

were brought from England onto the Apollo,

various materials of hers and Mr. Hubbard's do

you remember that now?

"A Yes.

"Q Was that your understanding of

what those materials were and it appeared that

they were from?

"A Yes.

"Q From --"

May I have a moment, Your Honor?

This is from the request for admissions, set

No. 3. I don't actually have the date. I can check and put

721

it into the record.

"Request for Admission No. 38.

"As part of his responsibility

with respect to the archives project, Gerald

Armstrong was responsible for coordinating with

Omar V. Garrison, an author who had been

retained to write an authorized biography of

L. Ron Hubbard and to provide Omar Garrison

with information he might require for said

biography."

The response to that request to admit No. 38 of

29 September 1983:

"Admitted."

722

From the deposition transcript of January 14,

page 86 beginning at line 14 continuing through page 87,

ending at line 23:

"Q At some point was there agreement

reached with Omar Garrison whereby he was to

write an authorized biography?

"A Yes.

"Q And how did you find out about that?

"A I was informed of it.

"Q Do you know who informed you?

"A Laurel.

"Q Do you know about when that was?

"A I believe it was in October 1980.

"Q And what were you told about the

arrangement with Mr. Garrison?

"A That a contract had been signed by

him.

"Q And what was your understanding as

to the nature in terms of that contract?

"A That he was going to write a biography.

"Q Did you understand that it was an

authorized biography?

"A Yes.

"Q And it was your understanding that

the Church would assist him in these efforts?

"A Yes.

"Q And that at some point a manuscript

would be prepared and submitted for review?

723

"A Yes.

"Q Reviewed by the Church?

"A No.

"Q Reviewed by whom?

"A By Mr. Hubbard.

"Q To see whether he approved of it?

"A Yes.

"Q How about Mrs. Hubbard? What was

her relationship to this as far as you new?

"A The manuscript -- my understanding

was the manuscript was to go to her initially

and then to Mr. Hubbard.

"Q So it's fair to say that basically

it was subject to the review and approval

of the two of them as far as you understood it?

"A Yes."

Deposition transcript of January 14, 1983 page 88,

line 20, continuing onto page 89, through 16:

"Q Now, after Mr. Garrison became

assigned to write this biography, did you then

work with him?

"A Yes.

"Q And what form did that take?

"A I copied information from the --

from the archives which I assembled, and I delivered

that -- those materials to Mr. Garrison.

"Q And how did you determine what to

copy?

724

"A At times I would ask; at times I

understood what was important biographically,

what he needed. It depended on the situation.

"Q And did you have to go through any

procedure providing material to him or did you

use your discretion?

"A It was my discretion.

"Q Did you get approval from anyone to

make copies and deliver them to him?

"A I was on project orders to that.

I was ordered to.

"Q Who ordered you to?

"A Laurel.

"Q Well, tell me about that. What

did Laurel order you to do?

"A I was on project orders, and it

was understood that I was to do that per the

contract with Omar Garrison."

Deposition transcript of January 14, 1983

beginning at line 20 of-page 109, and continuing onto

page 110, through line 10:

"Q Well, you have indicated that you

consider this letter from Mr. Wertheimer to be

an authorization for gaining access to these

files. So I'm just reclarifying that the

purpose of this, as you understood it, was for

the preparation of a biography which was

ultimately subject to the approval of both

725

Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard?

"A That was my understanding.

"Q No other purpose?

"A No.

"Q You didn't understand any general

right to gain access to those files for

other purposes other than this one purpose?

"A Other than the accumulation of

the files themselves, accumulation of archival

material itself.

"Q Which was subject to the control of

Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard, the archival material?

"A I would think it would be, yes.

"Q That was your understanding?

"A Yes."

From the January 14, 1983 deposition page 90

beginning at line 25 continuing onto page 91 through line 3:

"Q And what was your understanding

of Mr. Garrison's rights to use this documentation?

Was it for the biography?

"A Yes.

"Q Was he free to do with these documents

as he wished or were they for the specific purposes

you understood, of using it for the biography?

"A For use in the biography."

726

MR. LITT: From the deposition transcript of January

14, 1983, page 115, beginning at line 25; continuing on to

page 116, through line 6:

"Q Based on your years of experience

in Scientology, is it your opinion that Mr. and

Mrs. Hubbard or either of them would authorize

you, given your current attitudes towards

Scientology and toward them, to be allowed to

act in the capacity of gathering up their

private documents? Do you think you can answer

that?

"A I don't know, but they might.

"Q Have you ever observed in all of

your years of Scientology a situation in which

they ever granted any such permission to

someone who was hostile to them and to

Scientology?"

MR. LITT: There is then an exchange between counsel.

And the question is answered at the beginning of page 116,

line 20 and continuing, then, the questioning through line

24.

The answer to the question that I just read was

"No."

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, apparently objections are

supposed to be interposed as the witness' testimony is read.

An objection was made at the time because the witness was

asked to speculate on what was in the minds of these two

people.

727

I'll object.

THE COURT: He asked if he ever observed anything.

I'll overrule the objection.

MR. LITT: (Reading:)

"Q Do you have any facts to point

you to indicate that they would do so now?

"A No."

From the transcript of September 19, 1983, page

204, beginning at line 7 and continuing through line 22:

"Q Were the documents Mr. Garrison's

personal documents in your opinion?

"A That's a --

"Q I am not asking for a legal

conclusion. I wonder if you considered them

his personal documents.

"A I don't know how to answer that.

He was given them pursuant to that contract.

"Q Wasn't he given them pursuant to

the contract for his use?

"A Yes.

"Q When you were the archivist you

weren't giving these over to him, were you, to

keep?

"A I don't think that the question

ever came up.

"Q Well, did you feel that you were

giving them to him to keep?

"A No."

728

From the transcript of September 19, 1983, page

205, beginning at line 26 and continuing on to page 206

through line 8:

"Q I'll ask the question again.

Didn't you know that these were not

Mr. Garrison's personal documents and that he

could not do with them as he pleased pursuant

to the conditions under which they were given

to him? It's a simply yes or no answer.

Either you knew or you didn't.

"A Just so this is clear and we can

pick up where you said, I don't know what the

limitations were that were ever discussed or

imposed on him.

"Q That's not my question. That's

not my question.

"A So could he do with them what he

wanted? I would say no."

From the transcript of September 19, 1983, these

are still part of the same paper-clipped sections, page 206,

beginning at line 26 and continuing on to page 207 for the

whole page and then continuing on to page 208 through

line 15:

"Q Now, wasn't it your experience --

let me rephrase the question.

"Based on that experience and

your knowledge of how materials were handled

and specifically how the archive materials were

	729
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	handled, didn't you know that these materials were not provided to Mr. Garrison for his personal use to do with as he chose? "A Well, I think that there is a couple of classifications. The originals, it was understood were to be returned to the organization. The copies, that was his baby. So understand that. There's a differentiation. Also understand from this document here, it lays down a differentiation between what I was involved with and organizational archives. I did not have organizational archives. I had the originals. Those could, pursuant to the contract, be provided to Omar Garrison. There was nothing wrong with it. "Q For use pursuant to the contract; isn't that right? For what use? To work on the biography project; isn't that right? "A So that's why -- that's how they were provided to him. "Q That's right. And you knew that that was the only purpose for which they were provided to him; didn't you? "A That's the only reason I did provide them to him. "Q And that was the only reason they were provided to him; right? "A That's correct.

730

"Q And they weren't to be used for

any other reason, were they?

"A It never came up.

"Q It's come up now. It came up

when you sent the materials out.

"A That's right.

"Q So now it's come up. So now the

question is didn't you know that they were only

for use for the biography project?

"A It never came up.

"Q Now it's come up. So answer my

question. Didn't you know that they weren't to

be used for any other purpose?

"A Yeah. I couldn't imagine them

being used for another purpose. That's the

only reason why I provided them to

Mr. Garrison. What happened subsequently is a

whole different picture."

731

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, there is some more to that

particular answer.

THE COURT: I think the record should be read.

MR. LITT: Continuing the answer:

"And this particular policy applies to

another whole set of documents and copies within

the organization. Mine were not organization

archives. They weren't."

From the deposition transcript of January 14,

1983 page 98, lines 2 through 7:

"Did you read the letters that were

among those materials that were letters between

Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard?

"A A great deal of them, yes.

"Q Did you consider them personal?

"A Yes.

"Q Did you consider them private?"

Then there is an exchange between counsel and

beginning on line 12 of the same page, the witness gives

the answer, and I will continue through line 21, the witness

answering:

"I would say yes with the qualification

that they were made available to me for use in the

biography.

"Q Did you think that Mr. Hubbard or

Mrs. Hubbard would have approved your making

them available to Mr. Flynn?

"A No.

732

"Q Did you ever in the slightest consider

that the access that you had been provided

included authority from either of them to do that?

"A No."

From the deposition transcript of September 19,

1983, page 235 beginning at line 4 and continuing through

line 21:

"Q Do you recognize this, Mr. Armstrong,

a copy of the contract between Mr. Garrison

and AOSH DK Publications?

"A Yeah.

"Q Take a look at Page 3.

"A Okay.

"Q Paragraph B.

"A Okay.

"Q It says: 'Publisher shall use

it's best efforts to provide Author with an

office, an office assistant and/or research

assistant, office supplies and any needed

archival and interview materials in connection

with the writing of the Work.'

"A Yes.

"Q You are not mentioned in there, are

you?

"A No.

"Q It was contemplated that you were

the research assistant; isn't that right?

"A I assume so.

733

From the deposition transcript of September 19,

1983, page 237, beginning at line 1:

"Q Have you had a chance to read

exhibit 4?

"A No.

"Q Well, I will describe it to you and

you can read it if you want. It is a letter

from AOSH DK to the Church of Scientology of

California in which it confirms, among other

things, an AOSH DK understanding that the

cooperation to be given to Mr. Garrison by CSC" --

referring to the Church of Scientology of California --

"will include, among other things, 'providing

Mr. Garrison with complete access to your

archives and records on LRH' 'providing an

assistant to Mr. Garrison who will assist in

research and office duties as needed.'

"Now, isn't that who you were?

"A I don't know. I was never --

I have never seen this document before, didn't

know if its existence, was never informed of

it. So they may have me mixed up with someone

else.

"Q May have you mixed up?

"A I don't know.

"Q Your name isn't mentioned in here.

It's just mention of CSC providing a research

assistant to Mr. Garrison.

734

"A No idea.

"Q There was no other research

assistant provided other than you; right?

"A I don't know. They're talking about

CSC archives. I didn't have CSC archives.

That's something else.

"Q Was there any research assistant

other than you provided to Mr. Garrison to work

on the biography?

"A No, but maybe they weren't forthcoming.

I don't know when this thing was originated,

signed, created or anything else."

You don't have that, Your Honor, because I

finished the answer so that there wouldn't any objection.

That went through page 238, line 2.

From the deposition of October 28, 1983,

page 305:

"Q Right. When you speak of

L. Ron Hubbard's personal archives, it was

your responsibility to preserve, protect,

and maintain these materials?

"A Yeah."

From the deposition transcript of September 19,

1983, page 158, lines 4 through 15:

"Q Now, were there any policies

regarding the handling of archive materials, Church

policies, Scientology policies?

"A By which you mean something written?

735

"Q Yes.

"A None that I ever saw.

"Q Were there any policies that you

observed in practice with respect to the

security of archive materials?

"A Yeah.

736

"Q Describe those.

"A They were kept secure. They were

protected as much as possible against fire and

water damage."

Moving down on the same deposition transcript

to page 158, from line 22 going onto page 159 through

line 9:

"Q Well, if somebody wanted to go

in, what would they have to do to get in?

Let's start with physically.

"A They'd have to -- you mean if I

wasn't there?

"Q Yes.

"A They'd have to have a key to the

door.

"Q Just one key? Was there just one

door?

"A Well, there was a number of

other -- yeah. There was one door basically.

There was a number of other people who had

offices and keys into the main area that housed

the -- it housed not only my archival area, but

also a number of other projects and so on were

in that area so were admissible with one key,

but not into my area.

"Q So somebody would need a key to

get into the general area in which there were

other offices and your office; right?

737

"A Right."

Moving down the page 159, from line 15 through

to line 21:

"Q And was that door kept -- I am

speaking now of the general door -- kept

locked?

"A Yeah, closed. It closed

automatically.

"Q And then your office had a lock

on it; right?

"A Yes.

"Q And that was kept locked?

"A Yes."

From the deposition transcript of September 19,

1983 at page 161, lines 5 through 28:

"Q So I take it from that that

generally what happened was that other than

people who worked in the area on a regular

basis any people who got access --"

Let me take it from the top.

"Q So I take it from that that

generally what happened was that other than

people who worked in the area on a regular

basis, any other people who got access came

through Laurel and you were told by Laurel that

what they want to see, whatever, and they

should see it; is that basically right?

"A Basically. I mean I never -- I

738

didn't receive that many requests that I had to

decide on one way or the other. It just was --

it wasn't a thing that ever came up.

"Q Now, I think you described at

some point that there were file cabinets that a

lot of the material was kept in?

"A Right.

"Q Were there locks for that file

cabinet?

"A Yes.

"Q Were they kept locked?

"A Some of the time. It really

depended on the situation at the, you know --

"Q Well, when you would leave for

the night -- I'm not talking about when you

were working during the day. When you would

leave for the night, wouldn't you lock the

whole area up before you left?

"A Some. I locked the Hubbard

archives. They were kept in separate

cabinets."

From the August 18, 1982 deposition transcript

beginning at page 18, line 9 and going through page 219 and

220 through line 6.

THE COURT: You said page 18. I know you meant page

218.

Maybe your associate wants to read for a while.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I have no objection to the

	739
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	court just taking these pages and the court reporters at any appropriate point in time transcribing them. I don't know what the necessity of reading all of this is. I would stipulate that it be done basically however they want to do it, give you the pages; it is fine with me. If they want them marked as exhibits collectively, that is fine with me other than the other objections that I made earlier, that I think they have made Mr. Armstrong in this case their witness. THE COURT: Well, I don't know. MR. LITT: I think we would prefer to continue reading it, Your Honor. We have a chance to review it if we go that way. MR. FLYNN: I would cite Section 2016 subparagraph (f) of the rule, Your Honor, for whatever it is worth. THE COURT: Okay. For whatever it is worth, you have cited it. MR. FLYNN: I think that says they have made him their witness. MR. MAGNUSON: For the record, Michael Magnuson. I am beginning to take over the reading of this transcript. This is a transcript dated August 18, 1982 beginning at page 218 and beginning with line 9 and going to page -- to page 219, the entire page and ending on the end of line 6 on page 220. THE COURT: It would probably be a lot simpler if one of you read the questions and the other sat up here and read the answers. Then you don't have to preface it question and

740

answer.

MR. MAGNUSON: Let's take a moment to regroup, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: Let's take 10 minutes to regroup.

(Recess.)

741

THE COURT: Very well, we will continue.

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.

The next section will be from the deposition

transcript of August 18, 1982, beginning at line 9, of page

218, continuing through all of page 219, and I will include

all of page 220 so that there is no question about context

through page 221, line 2:

"Q Can you recall purchasing three

cases of Xerography paper on or about December 1st,

1981?

"A Not specifically, but it is possible.

"Q Can you recall almost continuously

operating a Minolta copier between December lst

and December 12, 1981?

"A Yes.

"Q Approximately how many hours a day did

you operate the copier in that 12-day period

of time?

"A I would say it was in operation

probably -- it is very difficult to say. It was

probably four hours a day.

"Q Some days as many as nine or ten hours,

possibly?

"A Very unlikely. It may have been

operated during that time, but actually running

copies, no. There is time extended collating,

setting up the machine, and so forth.

"Q Can you recall utilizing more than one

742

crate of Xerography paper during that period

of time?

"A I don't recall, but it is very likely.

"Q Is it very likely you used more than

two crates of paper during that period of time?

"A A case of paper is 5,000 pages. I

would say during my final two weeks I may have made

5,000 copies, I may have made 10,000 copies.

743

"Q Might you have made 15,000

copies?

"A I doubt it.

"Q Was it spontaneous on December

12, 1981 that you decided to leave the Church

of Scientology?

"A No.

"Q Isn't it a fact that you had made

your decision sometime prior to December 1,

1981 to leave the Church of Scientology?

"A It was made somewhere around

December 1st.

"Q Isn't it a fact that after you

made your decision to leave the Church of

Scientology you made several, possibly as many

as 10,000 copies of documents?

"A That's true.

"Q Were all of those copies that you

made provided to Mr. Garrison?

"A Yes.

"Q Every one?

"A No. Half of them. The other

half remained in archives or the other half

remained as a representation of what had been

copied for Mr. Garrison. So if in fact I made

10,000 copies, I would have provided 5,000 to

Mr. Garrison.

"Q Were these materials that

744

Mr. Garrison had requested approximately at

that point in time?

"A He had either requested them or I

felt obliged to deliver them to him as a part

of my commitment to him regarding the

biography.

"Q Now, could you estimate as a

percentage of that approximately 5,000 sheets

of paper delivered to Mr. Garrison how many you

felt obliged to deliver to him?

"A I felt committed to deliver all

of those to him.

"Q I mean as opposed to copies that

he had specifically requested.

"Let me give you a hypothetical

so I don't confuse you.

"We are assuming that there were

approximately 5,000 copies made and delivered

to Mr. Garrison, some of which he requested and

some of which you felt obligated to provide to

him. What I would like to have is your

estimate of how many of those 5,000 copies he

requested and how many you took it upon

yourself to provide to him on your own

initiative?

"A The majority of documents, copies

or originals which I provided to him, I

provided as my job. He did not, in many cases,

745

know prior to my delivery of those documents of

the existence of them. I decided at that point

when I came across them -- I had to make the

judgment at that point as to whether or not they

were of biographical interest."

At that point there is an exchange between

counsel which, if it is agreeable, I'll just summarize.

THE COURT: Just go on to the next page.

MR. LITT: Then Mr. Armstrong supplements his answer

as follows:

"So to answer that question,

probably 1/8th he requested."

MR. LITT: From the deposition transcript of August

18, 1982, page 214, beginning at line 17 and continuing

through page 215, line 1:

"Q When you left your post on

or about December 12, 1981 did you at that time

have any materials that had been housed in the

archives project in your possession or under

your control?

"A Yes.

"Q What materials were those?

"A Those were the -- there were some

originals and there was a number of binders

containing copies of documents which I had

prepared for Mr. Garrison.

"Q What were the original documents?

"A The original documents were some

746

of those which had come from the LRH archives

which Mr. Vorm has an index to."

Continuing on page 215, line 8 through line 25:

"Q What were those materials?

"A Those were materials from the

Hubbard Explorational Company. And they

were materials from Saint Hill.

"Q What materials from Saint Hill?

"A Referring to the purchase.

"Q And when you say 'referring to

the purchase,' does that include the

source of funding for the purchase?

"A I don't recall that. It may have

been included, but I don't recall it.

"Q What other original materials?

"A Materials referring to public

relations activities at Saint Hill, materials

having to do with horticultural experiments.

"Q By Mr. Hubbard?

"A Yes.

"Q While he was at Saint Hill?

"A Yes."

Reading from the same date, transcript, page

216, line 1 through line 18:

"Q What other materials?

"A That is what I recall.

"Q Approximately how many pages

would you estimate these documents to be?

747

"A 3,000.

"Q 3,000?

"A Uh-huh.

"Q Did you also at that time have

possession or control of that correspondence we

previously talked about authored by Mary Sue

Hubbard?

"A No.

"Q I am talking about the letter

that was so sensitive you didn't want to

discuss its contents, the one you took to

Clearwater with you.

"A Yes.

"Q Does 'yes' mean you are

acknowledging my statement, or 'yes' you had it

in your possession?

"A Yes, I had it."

MR. LITT: From the same page, line 27 and 28 and then

continuing on to page 217, lines 1 through 5.

"Q What copies of documents did you

have in your possession or control on or about

December 12, 1981?

"A I don't recall. They were the

final copies which I made for Omar Garrison

prior to my leaving.

"Q Can you estimate the number of

pages involved in those copies?

"A A thousand."

748

From the August 17, 1982 deposition transcript,

page 70, lines 23 through 27:

"Q Who is Virgil Wilhite?

"A Virgil Wilhite is -- he's a

person I've known from probably two years. He

makes a living in selling -- dealing in

Hubbardian memorabilia and materials. He was a

personal friend of mine."

From the same date deposition transcript page 92

at line 25 through the end and quoting on page 93, lines 1

through 6:

"Q Upon what do you base your

information that he was being paid by

Mr. Hubbard's accountant and authorized to do

this work?

"A Well, I was the liaison between

Mr. Hubbard's -- perhaps 'accountant' is

the wrong word. There is a post called LRH

accounts. It was the LRH accounts officer with

whom I communicated to make arrangements for

Mr. Wilhite to do this function, you see,and he

was to come up with an assigned value for these

archives. He assigned a value of $5 million to

these archives, which I had control of at that

time."

From the same date deposition transcript page

93, line 23 through the end and continuing onto page 94,

line 1:

	749
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	"Q Did you and Mr. Wilhite ever have any conversation concerning the value of Excaliber as a manuscript? "A I don't think that exact thing, you know, like a conversation; however, it was included within the list of the inventory which he did of Mr. Hubbard's archives, and there was the figure on there -- I don't recall what it was, but it could have been a million dollars." From the September 19, 1983 deposition transcript, page 154 beginning at line 13, continuing through the end of the page and going on to page 155 through line 14: "Q Now, on December 12th, were any of the materials that Omar Garrison had been provided by you originals? "A Yes. "Q In general, describe the circumstances under which he had originals. "A He had -- there was a number of boxes of random unsorted originals which probably very few of which were going to be usable biographically, but which he was going to go through and read for two purposes: one was to get an understanding of what sort of traffic, what sort of correspondence, what sort of activities Hubbard was involved in. There was everything from to do with yachting to

750

ordinary dispatches off his desk at some period

through organizational things. There was a

whole -- three or four boxes of this stuff.

From that he was going to select whatever was

going to be usable for research and copy it if

he needed it.

"Q Now, these originals, as I

understand your testimony, they were basically

a few boxes, all of which had been together and

not sorted out that had original materials in

them that were provided to him?

"A Right. They were random things.

There was no particular sense to them, and it

doesn't make a lot of sense, as he thought and

I thought, to copy all these things in bulk for

him. It was a waste of time and --

"Q When were these boxes of

materials that had these three or four boxes of

original random materials, when were they

provided to Mr. Garrison?

"A Over several days in December.

"Q And did you deliver them to him?

"A Yeah."

From the deposition transcript of September 19,

1983, page 156, lines 1 through 8:

"Q How did these originals all get

together in these boxes? I mean, had they come

to just as these random materials? You had

751

picked them up someplace or had you put them

into these boxes, or what?

"A I'm sure I put them into the

boxes, at least some of them, because they had

come from -- some of them were given to me by

Tom Vorm, just in a bulk like various files all

together; so for ease of transport, I put them

into boxes."

From the deposition transcript of August 17,

lines 1 through 18:

"Q Mr. Armstrong, do you own a car?

"A Yes.

"Q Do you understand the manner in

which you own that car?

"A Yes.

"Q Using that same definition -- and

you do not have to tell us what it is -- do you

own the documents that we are now talking

about?

"A No.

"Q Who does own them, if you know?

"A L. Ron Hubbard.

"Q And upon what do you base that

information?

"A They were taken from his archives

and given to Omar Garrison."

From the deposition transcript of January 14,

1983, page 116, beginning at line 25 and continuing to page

752

117 through line 8:

"Q Did you testify previously that

you considered these documents to belong to

Mr. Hubbard?

"A At least some of them.

"Q The bulk of them?

"A Yes.

"Q And some others that belong to

Mrs. Hubbard?

"A Yes.

"Q And perhaps a few that belong to

one or another Scientology organization?

"A Uh-huh.

"Q That's still your testimony?

"A Yes."

From the deposition transcript of October 28,

1983, page 323 beginning at line 2 through the end of the

page and going on to page 324 at line 4:

"Q Now, let me ask you about this

letter that was produced at one of your

earlier depositions, L. Ron Hubbard to Mary Sue

Hubbard, or vice versa, Mary Sue Hubbard to

L. Ron Hubbard. This was a letter that you

testified as to having carried around for some

time. You know the one I'm referring to?

"A Right.

"Q Where did you obtain that letter

while you were on the archives post? What was

753

your source?

"A I'm pretty sure that came out of

the Del Sol materials.

"Q Which you obtained approximately

what date?

"A Beginning of 1980.

"Q And then did you make copies of

that document or that letter, or what did you

do with it while you were at the archives?

"A I believe that there was a copy

made. I would have to check with Omar to be

sure, but I know that somewhere along the line

sometime later in '81, I'm pretty sure, I

delivered a copy to him or -- I don't know. I

remember him seeing -- this would be in

mid-1981 because I didn't have that letter the

whole time. It showed up later as I went

through all these materials.

"Q Did you show that letter to any

other individuals while you were on the

archives post?

"A I think I showed it to Barbara.

"Q Then what happened to the

original of that letter?

"A The original I believe I gave to

Omar at some point, perhaps when we were

leaving, because I got it back from him later."

From age 324 of the same date of deposition

754

transcript, lines 14 through 27:

"Q Did you ever make a copy of that

letter after leaving the church?

"A I -- I'm not sure. It's

possible, but I'm just -- I'm not sure. It's

possible. I seem to remember something about

it coming up maybe with -- maybe with Contos &

Bunch.

"Q Do you recall ever showing it to

anybody after you left the church?

"A I showed it to Flynn.

"Q Anybody else?

"A I don't know. Maybe Jocelyn. I

don't recall if there was anyone else or not.

Maybe -- it could be Mike and Kima. I remember

talking to Kima about it and about Mary Sue and

something in relation to it, so it's possible."

From the deposition transcript of September 19,

1983, page 198, lines 10 through 24:

"Q Now, let's go back to what I

guess is the end of April or early May. You

indicated that you met with Mr. Flynn at some

point. Where did you meet with him?

"A Clearwater.

"Q And you had spoken to him prior

to going to Clearwater; is that right?.

"A That's right. I called him.

"Q Do you remember when that was?

755

"A It would have been within --

within -- within a few days of whenever that

was. It was just a couple of days. It was

right after the incident with the photos

happened.

"Q So it was probably right around

the end of April?

"A Yeah, end of April, beginning of

May.

756

MR. LITT: From the January 14, 1983 deposition

transcript, page 100, lines 3 to 15:

"Q Mr. Armstrong, let's go back to

the material you took to Mr. Flynn in May.

"A Yes.

"Q How did you get to Clearwater?

"A How did I get there?

"Q Yes.

"Q Mr. Flynn paid for that flight

right?

"A Yes, he did.

"Q And at that time you had an

original of a letter from Mrs. Hubbard to

Mr. Hubbard?

"A Yes.

"Q When was that letter written?

"A Excuse me. I think sometime in

the mid-'50s."

From the same dated -- I am going to have to

come back to this. I am missing something here. Take out

ages 102 and 103 -- take out page 102. We'll go to 103 and

I'll have to check it at the break.

From the January 14, 1983 deposition transcript,

page 103, lines 2 to 15:

"Q Well, let me ask you, you did not

feel that the letter belonged to you, did you?

"A No.

"Q You felt it belonged to Mary Sue?

757

"A Yes.

"Q That's why you were trying to

return it to her?

"A Yes.

"Q Especially given its personal

nature?

"A Yes.

"Q You gave a copy of the letter to

Mr. Flynn in Clearwater; is that right?

"A No.

"Q Did you show the letter to him?

"A Yes."

Now, let me go back to the January 14, '83

deposition transcript, page 102, lines 1 through 3:

"Q You felt it was particularly

personal and private?

"A Yeah."

The September 19, 1983 deposition transcript at

page 193, beginning at line 28 and continuing onto page 194

through line 7:

"Q The Mary Sue letter, as you have

described it, that you took with you, you took

it for the purpose of showing to Mr. Flynn; is

that right?

"A Yeah.

"Q Now --

"A I don't believe I originally set

out with that idea. It was in the briefcase

758

which I took, but once there, I definitely

decided to do it."

From the September 19, 1983 deposition

transcript, page 192 beginning at line 25 and continuing on

page 193 at line 3:

"Q Now, prior to taking these

materials with you to Clearwater, did you have

any conversation with Mr. Garrison about the fact

that you were taking some materials to

Clearwater with you?

"A I don't think the subject ever

came up. Mr. Garrison knew that I was going to

see Michael Flynn. He drove me to the

airport."

From the September 19, 1983 deposition

transcript, page 194, line 16 through line 21:

"Q So when you were in Clearwater,

at some point you met with Mr. Flynn and he

then believed you were who you said you were

and then you told him about the archive

materials and what Mr. Garrison and what you

had; is that right?

A Basically, yes."

From the January 14, 1983 deposition transcript,

page 93, beginning at line 26 and continuing on to page 94,

line 2:

"Q The materials that are presently

under seal in the court, where did they come

	759
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	from? "A Omar Garrison. "Q When did you get that from Mr. Garrison? "A I think for the most part in May or June." From the September 19, 1983 deposition transcript, page 197, beginning at line 6 and continuing on to page 198, line 5: "Q You had a conversation with Omar Garrison at some point, did you not, in which you discussed with him your desire to make copies of these materials or to provide some of these materials to Mr. Flynn; is that right? "A I asked him for documents and he said that I could have whatever I needed. "Q When did this conversation occur? "A Around May or June. "Q Sometime after you came back from Clearwater? "A Sometime after that. "Q Did it occur in person, or on the telephone? "A It occurred first by telephone and later when we met in person. "Q The telephone conversation that you had, where were you and where was Mr. Garrison when that conversation occurred?

760

"A I believe he was home and I was

in a phone booth.

"Q Home being Utah or Costa Mesa?

"A Utah.

"Q And then did you go to Utah at

some point?

"A No.

"Q Where did you have the in-person

conversation that you referred to?

"A In Costa Mesa.

"Q And what reason did you give

Mr. Garrison that you wanted to copy these

materials?

"A I -- I said that they were needed

for evidence."

Page 198 of the same date, the deposition

transcript, lines 19 through 23:

"Q Now, what did you believe that

you were going to be sued for? You had not

been sued; is that right?

"A That's correct.

"Q Did you know what you were going

to be sued for?

"A No. It didn't matter."

MR. FLYNN: I think the middle portion ought to

be read in order to put it into context, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You can do it on your side of the case.

MR. LITT: October 28, 1983 deposition transcript,

761

page 270, beginning at line 26 and continuing on to page 271

through line 7:

"Q Did Mr. Garrison ask you to send

these documents to Mr. Flynn for safekeeping?

"A No.

"Q Just to make sure we are clear,

we are talking about any of the documents, not

just this particular document; correct?

"A Right. He told me --"

762

"Q That's fine.

"A -- that I could use the documents

in my defense. He knew that I was sending

them to Mr. Flynn."

From the August 17, 1982 deposition transcript

page 31, beginning at line 27, continuing through page 32,

and onto page 33, through line 15:

"'Mr. Armstrong, have you provided to

any of your attorneys any materials that were

previously within your custody and control when

you were the archivist for the Sea Organization

in the Church of Scientology?

"A Yes.

"Q At what point in time did you obtain

possession of those documents?'

"A In the latter part of April, early part

of May.

"Q Of what year?

"A This year.

"Q Who did you obtain these documents

from?

"A Omar Garrison.

"Q Are those documents you had

previously provided to Mr. Garrison?

"A Yes.

"Q Did Mr. Garrison say anything to

you at the time he provided those documents

to you?

763

"A I don't think so, not directly

concerning those documents.

"Q Did you have a meeting with Mr. Garrison

in April of 1982?

"A It was in the beginning of May. Not a

meeting per se, but I was at his house.

"Q And where was that located?

"A Utah.

"Q What was the purpose of your visit

to his house?

"A To move him to Utah.

"Q To move him to Utah?

"A Uh-huh.

"Q Did he volunteer some documents

to you, or did you request documents of him at

that point in time?

"A He volunteered some to me, and I --

let's see. He volunteered some, and I requested

some.

"Q Which ones did you request?

"A I requested some letters between

L. Ron Hubbard and his first wife.

"Q Who was that first wife?

"A Margaret Grubb, Louise Grubb.

Polly was her name. Let me think. I requested

some naval history documents and requested some

documents which were correspondence between

L. Ron Hubbard and his current wife, Mary Sue Hubbard.

764

"That is principally it, as I recall."

From the deposition transcript of January 14,

1983, page 95, line 25 through the end, continuing to

page 96 through line 6:

"Q And at some point did you take

these materials that Mr. Garrison had had you

copy and send them to Michael Flynn?

"A Yes.

"Q When was that?

"A It was probably in -- it was

probably in July.

"Q And at that time you were familiar

with the fact that Michael Flynn represented

a large number of persons suing the Church of

Scientology and Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard?

"A Yes."

From the deposition of September 19, 1983,

page 216, line 26 through page 217, line 1:

"Q Now, you reached an agreement

with Mr. Flynn at some point, didn't you, to

act as a witness for him in other of his

cases?

"A Yes."

From the request for admission set No. 3

request No. 74:

"Between June 1982 and August 1983,

inclusive, Gerald Armstrong knowingly allowed

Michael J. Flynn to utilize some of the original

765

materials and copies of original materials, which

he had sent to Michael J. Flynn during the

same time period, in litigation other than the

instant suits.

"Admitted."

That is from the responses of Defendant

Gerald Armstrong to requests for admissions propounded by

Plaintiff Church of Scientology of California dated September 29,

1983.

From the January 14, 1983 deposition

transcript, page 97, beginning at line 25, continuing through

page 98, line 1:

"Q Do you have any knowledge of whether

or not Mr. Flynn used these materials for purposes

of any litigation in which he did not represent

you?

"A Only in the documentation that I

provided on a particular affidavit, declaration."

From the January 14, 1983 deposition transcript

page 96, lines 12 through 18:

"Q Did you use them in those cases?

"A No.

"Q Did you believe when you used

htem in those cases that that was pursuant to

the conditions under which Mr. Hubbard and

Mrs. Hubbard or the Church of Scientology had

allowed you to gather them up?

"A No."

766

From the requests for admission, set No. 3,

request for admission No. 75:

"On or about May 26-28, 1982, at

the Hotel Bonaventure in Los Angeles, California,

Gerald Armstrong personally delivered to

Michael J. Flynn about 4,000 copies of original

materials which had been contained in the

Archives Project when Armstrong was in charge

of said project."

From the document entitled "Responses of

Defendant, Gerald Armstrong to request for admissions

propounded by Plaintiff, Church of Scientology of California

dated September 28, 1983, response No. 75 reads, "Denied in

part."

Then the next document is entitled "Answers

Defendant, Gerald Armstrong, to Interrogatories accompanying

request for admissions propounded by plaintiff, Church of

Scientology of California." This is bearing a date stamp of

September 30, 1983. Request for admission No. 77, on line 2,

page 26 reads as follows:

"I believe it was close to 1,000 pages

of copies."

From the September 19, 1983 deposition at

page 208, beginning at line 28, continuing throughout

page 208 and through 210, line 6:

"Q Some time in May you had a meeting

with Mr. Flynn and others at the Bonaventure

Hotel; is that correct?

767

"A It might have been May or June. I

don't recall the exact date.

"Q Well, let's use as a working date

May 26 to 29. If I am wrong somebody will

show it sooner or later. Were any of the

materials that you had provided or were any archive

materials present at any point in the course of

that meeting?

"A Yeah.

768

"Q What materials were present in

the course of that meeting?

"A Naval worker's, materials from

binders called The Book, Your Soundscriber, and

some other title. There was maybe a couple of

others.

"Q How did they get there?

"A I took them.

"Q From where?

"A From where I had them in Costa

Mesa.

"Q From your apartment?

"A Uh-huh -- yes.

"Q Was this after you had had a

discussion with Omar Garrison concerning him

giving you some of these materials, or before?

"A It was after.

"Q Why did you bring them to the

meeting?

"A Because I wanted to show them to

Michael Flynn.

"Q Had he asked you to bring them?

"A I don't believe it ever came up.

"Q Did he know you were bringing

them?

"A I don't believe that it ever came

up.

"Q Who else was present at this

	769
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	meeting? "A Mike Douglas, Kima Douglas, Jim Dincalci, Nancy Dincalci." The same page, line 16 through line 22: "Q Now, did you give the materials to Mr. Flynn at that time? "A I left some of them with him at that time for him to read. "Q Did you discuss the materials with him at some point in the course of the weekend? "A Yeah." MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I think the record should reflect that this meeting took place over four days, as is stated on -- it says two days on line 3 and on another it says 26th to 29th, inclusive. THE COURT: Well, you'll have a chance to present evidence. It says some point in the course of the weekend. That usually means Saturday and Sunday. If you want to expand upon it later, you may do so. MR. LITT: From the deposition transcript of September 19, 1983, page 212, beginning at line 17 and continuing to the end of the page and going on to page 213 through line 9: "Q At the end of this meeting, what happened to the materials? Did you taken them back, or did Mr. Flynn take them? "A No. I left, at least, some of

770

the materials. I believe there's maybe five

packs of this stuff altogether. I left it with

Mr. Flynn to read that night and I picked it up

again the next day.

"Q And took it back with you?

"A Yes. And made copies.

"Q And then sent them on to Mr.

Flynn?

"A Sometime after that.

"Q Did he ask you to make him copies

after he read them?

"A I don't recall. He may have. I

may have said that I am going to send off

materials. I don't know if he originated it or

I did."

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, there was a significant

error.

THE COURT: Read that again. Read that answer again.

MR. MAGNUSON: (Reading:)

"A I don't recall. I may have. I

may have said that I am going to send off

materials. I don't recall if he originated it

or I did.

"Q Was there any discussion at this

meeting that you have described about the fact

that the archive materials or the various

documents in them were potential evidence in

various cases?

771

"A I discussed them."

MR. LITT: The deposition transcript of

September 19, 1983, page 10, beginning at line 27 and

continuing on to the page 211 at line 4:

"Q Were materials discussed

between any other parties besides you and Mr.

Flynn in the course of that weekend?

"A It's -- it's possible that they

were discussed broadly like what was basically

in the archives materials. I don't believe

that any particular things were discussed."

August 18, 1982 deposition transcript, page 234,

lines 2 through 15:

"Q Mr. Armstrong, on what occasions

have you sent either original or copies of

documents to Mr. Michael Flynn's office?

"A To my recollection, sometime in

May, sometime in June, sometime in July and

once in August.

"Q Now, by your recitation there, do

you mean once during the months of May, June,

July, and August or on more than one occasion

during each one of those months?

"A To my recollection, there were

four times when I sent copies or originals of

documents to Mr. Flynn. There may be five, but

it is in that area.

"Q In terms of the number of pages,

772

how many pages of original documents have you

sent to Mr. Flynn?

"A I'd estimate 3,000."

MR. LITT: From the deposition transcript of August

18, 1982, page 234, beginning on line 28 and continuing

through page 235 and then 236 through line 25:

"Q Approximately how many pages of

original documents did you send to Mr. Flynn in

May?

"A None that I recall.

"Q Same question in June.

"A Perhaps 200 or 300.

"Q And July?

"A Again, about the same, a few

hundred.

"Q And August?

"A Perhaps 2,000.

"Q We've been talking about original

documents so far?

"A That's correct.

"Q The same question now as to

copies of documents; in total, how many pages

of copies of documents have you provided to

Mr. Flynn?

"A In the neighborhood of 5,000.

"Q How many in May, approximately?

"A 4,000.

"Q And how many in June?

773

"A A couple of hundred.

"Q And how many in July?

"A A couple hundred.

"Q And how many in August?

"A About the same, 300, 400.

"Q And is the source of all of these

copies documents that you borrowed from

Mr. Garrison to copy?

"A Yes.

"Q Now, same question again. How

many original documents have been provided to

the law offices of Bunch and Contos?"

MR. LITT: Go down to line 4 and read the

answer.

"A I would say 2,000.

"Q What was the earliest provided to

that office?

"A To my recollection, it was

sometime in July.

"Q And how many documents, original

documents, were provided during the month of

July to that office?

"A That is what I just said, a

couple of thousand.

"Q And how many in August?

"A I believe none.

"Q Same question as to copies of

documents; when is the first time copies of

774

documents were provided to Contos & Bunch.

"A In July.

"Q And how many copies,

approximately, were provided in July?

"A My recollection, approximately

400.

"Q In August?

"A I believe 20.

"Q And as to these documents that we

identified this morning, you identified several

different categories of documents that you had

originals of.

"Q Yes."

MR. LITT: The deposition transcript of

September 19, 1983, page 200 beginning at line 17 and

continuing on to page 201 through line 27.

"Q No. Other than what was in your

apartment, did you go somewhere else, either to

Mr. Garrison's home in Utah or to the Costa

Mesa apartment or to Mr. Crago's or whatever

and get any materials for purposes of making a

copy to forward to Mr. Flynn?

"A Omar sent me a number of

materials for that purpose.

"Q How were those chosen?

"A I asked him for specific binders.

"Q Do you recall what materials he

sent you?

775

"A There was a binder of

correspondence with Nibs; there were some

letters to and from Helen O'Brien. That's all

that I recall right now -- no, there was OTO

documents; there was John Parsons' file.

That's about it that I recall.

"Q And what was the total amount of

that material?

"A Maybe a couple of thousand pages.

"Q And you received that from

Mr. Garrison and sent it on to Mr. Flynn?

"A Basically.

"Q Did you make copies first?

"A That's correct.

"Q Did you have any other

discussions with Mr. Garrison asking him to

send on any other specific materials?

"A There was a couple of times when

he sent on materials to me or when he was down

in the Orange County area, gave me some binders

for copying the contents of.

"Q For the specific purpose of

forwarding them to Mr. Flynn?

"A That's correct.

"Q What were those?

"A The letters to do with Don

Purcell, the Wichita. That's all that I

recall.

776

"Q The materials that Mr. Garrison

gave you, were they in response to specific

requests?

"A From me?

"Q For specific materials.

"A Those ones were, yes."

From the deposition transcript of August 17,

1982, page 102, lines 6 through 14:

"Q What categories of documents have

you provided counsel at this time concerning

Mr. Hubbard and the Church of Scientology?

"A Letters between Mr. Hubbard and

his first wife which I mentioned earlier;

letters between Mr. Hubbard and his second

wife, which I mentioned earlier -- no, I didn't

mention her. That would be Sarah Northrup

Hubbard; letters having to do with John W.

Parsons; letters having to do with --

correspondence concerning or with Don Purcell.

777

MR. LITT: Just a moment, please.

MR. MAGNUSON: Do we go down to line 22?

MR. LITT: The witness continues on the same page

lines 22 through 26:

"A There are also letters having to do

with Hubbard Explorational Company -- correspondence

having to do with that. I mentioned the naval

papers already. There are a couple tapes which

were given to me by Barbara De Celle."

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, there was a question deleted

which they just read an answer to and then they just added

to the record that the answer continued, but there were

questions and answers in between.

THE COURT: Well, it was answered with a "no," so

there is nothing there.

MR. LITT: What happened is Mr. Armstrong interjected

and went back to his previous answer and expanded on it.

MR. FLYNN: Well, there is a question, "Now,

Mr. Purcell is an attorney" is one.

"A No."

And then there is another response, "Yeah,

I know."

And then there is another response. All that

was deleted from the reading.

THE COURT: But that has nothing to do with what

he is talking about, what category of documents he provided.

That is irrelevant to the particular question.

Okay. You are on page 103, line 8. Let's

	778
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	go forward. MR. LITT: Line 8 through line 16 of the August 17 depositions. "Q Of the categories that you've just recited, how many of those categories include original materials that you've had in your possession and control and have provided to attorneys? "A Maybe a couple. "Q Can you recall which ones those are? "A Hubbard Explorational Company, and then there was some memorandum files, which I haven't even gone through. I sent those off." The August 18, 1982 deposition transcript page 147, lines 9 through 17: "Q Was part of the archives collection complete set of documents concerning Mr. Hubbard's naval data or the various military schools or activities he was involved in? "A Yes. "Q Have you made copies of any of those documents for anyone except Mr. Garrison? "A Yes. "Q And who would those persons be? "A My attorneys." In the August 18, 1982 deposition transcript, page 160, lines 12 through 24:

	779
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	"Q When is the last time you provided materials to either Mr. Garrison or your attorney? "A Two days ago. "Q And that would be Monday? "A Yes. "Q To whom did you provide materials? "A To Michael Flynn and to Omar Garrison. "Q: Approximately how many documents did you provide to each of those two individuals? "Let's start with Mr. Garrison. "A Oh, about 450 pages to Mr. Garrison. "Q And to Mr. Flynn? "A 1,000 pages." From the August 18, 1982 deposition transcript page 162 beginning at line 12 continuing on to page 163 through line 8: "In the 1,000 pages provided to Mr. Flynn, what were the materials included? "A They included information on Hubbard Explorational Company, on Mr. Hubbard's letters to Mary Sue Hubbard from 1967. "That is basically it. "Q Approximately how many pages would you estimate -- not guess, estimate -- are devoted to copies of correspondence between L. Ron Hubbard and Mary Sue Hubbard? "A I would say 400. "Q And the remaining 600 pages would

780

concern the explorational company?

"A Yes.

"Q Were any original materials rather than

copies included in these materials that you provided

to Mr. Flynn on Monday of this week?

"A Yes.

"Q And what materials are those?

"A Those were the explorational company

materials.

"Q And what is included in the

explorational company materials?

"A Information on boats, information

on the establishment of the Sea Organization,

information on finances connected with those

organizations, and that sort of thing."

Continuing from the same deposition transcript

page 163, line 18 through page 164, line 1:

"Q And what was your source of those

original documents that you provided to Mr. Flynn?

"A Mr. Garrison.

"Q Did you return copies of these

original documents to Mr. Garrison?

"A No.

"Q So Mr. Garrison's files are now without

copy or original material; is that correct?

"A "That is correct.

"Q Is the archive also without copy or

original materials?

781

"A That is correct."

From the deposition transcript of August 17, 1982

I will read from page 79, lines 3 through 4. The witness

actually answers the question at line 28 and then I will

continue from line 28 through page 80:

"Now, during lunch have any other documents

come to mind that were authored by L. Ron Hubbard

or Mary Sue Hubbard that you either have copies of

or originals of?

"A Yes, there are some more documents,

Mary Sue Hubbard's.

"Q Can you identify those documents?

"A To my recollection, there are a

few letters -- there may be half a dozen,

maybe a dozen.

"Q I am assuming Mary Sue Hubbard is

the author of these letters; is that correct?

"A Yes.

"Q Can you recall who the addressees

are of those letters?

"A L. Ron Hubbard.

"Q Can you recall the approximate time

period that these letters pertain to?

"A 1966, '67.

"Q And the subject matter of these

letters?

"A Some are to do with response to

things that he has ordered -- for the most part,

782

they are just little notes, no long letters.

They are about things he's ordered regarding

property. There are mentions of her plans to

come and visit him, mention of things to do

with boats, his yachts. That is principally it,

as I recall."

From the deposition transcript of October 28,

1983 page 285 lines 3 through 7:

"Q All right. Now, the next document

I want to discuss, or set of documents, have

to do with the death of Quentin Hubbard. Do you

recall some materials coming into your possession

as the archivist on the subject?

"A Yeah."

From the October 28, 1983 deposition page 286,

line 11 through page 287, line 8:

"Q And did these documents in fact

concern the death of Quentin Hubbard?

"A Yes.

"Q Did you read these materials?

"A Yes.

"Q Do you recall when you transferred

these to Mr. Garrison?

"A Some time in late 1981, probably

in December, the first part of December.

"Q Shortly before you left your position?

"A Yeah.

"Q Did you then some time later after

783

leaving the church obtain a copy. of those materials

from Mr. Garrison or -- I am sorry -- obtain

those materials that you had previously delivered

to Mr. Garrison?

"A I believe so.

"Q And then did you make another copy

of those materials at that point?

"A It -- I believe so."

"Q Did you then return to Mr. Garrison

the copy you had obtained from him and retain in

your own possession the second copy?

"A I think so.

"Q Did you thereafter send that copy

that you had retained to Mr. Flynn?

"A I believe so."

From the same date deposition transcript

page 295, line 26 through page 296, 297 and onto page 298,

line 1:

"Q Now, let's discuss the letters and

dispatches relating to Alexis Hollister. Do you

recall those materials?

"A Yes."

	784
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	"Q Where did you obtain these while you were on the archives post? "A I believe from the Pers Sec files. "Q Do you recall when those materials came into your possession? "A Early 1980. "Q Shortly after you assumed the archives post? "A Yes. "Q Do you know what the character of those documents is? Is that letters or notes, or what is the form that these materials take? "A There's a number of letters. And then there are some organizational memos or orders. "Q And these are between whom, if you recall? Who are the memos, letters, and orders exchanged between? "A Alexis Hollister and Harry Hubbard; Alexis Hollister and L. Ron Hubbard; L. Ron Hubbard and Jane Kember; Jane Kember and L. Ron Hubbard; Mary Sue Hubbard and L. Ron Hubbard. That's who I recall. "Q About how many documents are we talking about? "A Maybe 40 or 50 pages. "Q Did you then compile these into a

785

binder form?

"A Yes.

"Q Do you recall how many copies you

made of these materials?

"A At what point?

"Q While you were on the archives

post.

"A To the best of my recollection,

two.

"Q And as you recall, did you go

through the same process of keeping the

original set in the files; if you made a second

set, storing those in the archives and

transferring a copy to Mr. Garrison?

"A Yes.

"Q Did you read these materials?

"A Yes.

"Q Did you read these materials?

"A Yes.

"Q Do you recall when you

transferred these materials to Mr. Garrison?

"A Sometime in 1981.

"Q Do you recall early or late '81?

"A No. I would say early to mid.

"Q Did you then, after leaving the

church obtain this set that you had previously

delivered to Mr. Garrison?

"A I believe so.

786

"Q Do you remember when that took

place?

"A Early spring of '82 or spring of

'82?

"A Do you recall whether you made

copies of those materials that you obtained

from Mr. Garrison at that point?

"A I believe so.

"Q Do you recall how many copies you

made?

"A To the best of my recollection,

one.

"Q What did you do with the set you

had obtained from Mr. Garrison?

"A I believe I gave him the first

generation copies in a binder back and retained

the second generation copies.

"Q Do you recall if you subsequently

sent those documents to Mr. Flynn as well?

"A To the best of my recollection,

yes."

From the October 28 deposition, page 325 at line

13 and continuing through page 326 at line 13:

"Q Well, while on the archives post

do you recall obtaining originals or copies of

correspondence between Mary Sue and L. Ron

Hubbard?

"A Yes.

787

"Q What was the source or the

sources of that correspondence?

"A The Hubbard storage in Del Sol in

Gilman Hot Springs, the Hubbard Worldwide

documents, the Pers Sec files, the Pers Comm

files, the controller archives files. I don't

know. They were pretty strewn around

throughout a lot of sources, a lot of letters.

"Q Approximately how many letters

would you say?

"A Maybe 300 back and forth.

"Q Over --

"A Maybe more. Two to four hundred,

maybe.

"Q Okay. And over what period of

time do these letters cover?

"A 1952, I guess, through 1978,

maybe; maybe '79.

"Q Did you read these letters?

"A Some of them.

"Q And what did you do with them

when you obtained them in your capacity as

archivist?

"A I put them into some sort of

logical order; tried to assemble them into a

sensible order because a lot of the boxes and

that sort of thing they were strewn around, a

page here and a page there. So I had to piece

788

them together. .And once they were together,

then in various blocks, time periods, I copied

them and made a copy for retention and made a

copy for delivery to Omar Garrison."

Continuing on page 326, line 24 through page

327, line 1:

"Q And did you subsequently obtain

these letters from Mr. Garrison?

"A Some of them. Probably some of

them.

"Q Which if you recall? Which ones

did you obtain?

"A There would have been some of

the -- some of the binders. Maybe all of them,

but, again, I can't say."

Then page 327 beginning at line 20 through page

328, 329, 330 and 331, line 8:

"Q Well, did you in fact, however,

copy some of those letters that were in binders

during that period after you left the church?

"A I'm pretty sure.

"Q And --

"A Most of my recollection of that

is a deductive recollection on the basis of the

statements that there are Mary Sue letters

under seal. Again, I was copying these things

for Omar in large part. And when I sent these

photocopies to Flynn, I mean I got rid of

	789
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	everything in a big hurry. And that was about it. "Q And these were among the materials you sent to Mr. Flynn? "A They would be amongst the photocopies. "Q Do you recall the marital agreement document between Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard? "A Yes. "Q Do you remember the source of that document while you were the archivist? "A It came from the Del Sol materials. "Q And did you similarly make copies of that document or those documents? "A I'm relatively certain that I made copies, probably provided them to Mr. Garrison. "Q Is this one or two documents? Can you explain what form the marital agreements take? "A To my recollection, there are two documents. One is signed by Mary Sue Hubbard; one is signed by L. Ron Hubbard. And it's an agreement -- I can't say what the legal name is, but just what I would call it, it is an agreement for an uncontested divorce.

790

"Q And this is from the early 1950s;

correct?

"A I don't know if it was ever

dated.

"Q Do you recall providing either

the original or copies of those documents to

Mr. Garrison?

"A I'm sure -- I'm sure. I don't --

you know, if he didn't show up with them, then

I am saying the wrong thing. I don't recall

the instance of doing it, but I know we've

talked about the documents. So --"

791

"Q Do you know when you provided to

Mr. Garrison the original of these or what

became of the original of these documents?

"A I think he had the original up to a

point at least. It could have been amongst the

pile of junk, I'm pretty sure.

"Q As far as you recall, you did provide

him the original of these two documents?

"A I believe so.

"Q Would that have been toward the end

of the period that you were with the Church that

you transferred that to Mr. Garrison?

"A I would think so.

"Q Do you recall obtaining when you were

archivist correspondence between Mr. Hubbard

and Sarah?

"A Run that by me again.

"Q When you were the archivist, did

you obtain correspondence between Mr. Hubbard

and Sarah?

"A Yes.

"Q Who was Sarah?

"A Sarah was L. Ron Hubbard's second

wife.

"Q And this correspondence came from

what period, do you know?

"A Maybe 1945 through 1952.

"Q And do you recall approximately

792

the volume of these letters, how many?

"A The Sarah documents relating to

Sarah Northrup, Sarah Hubbard, were contained

in various binders. To my recollection there was

one just of correspondence, but it also included

correspondence between John W. Parsons and Sarah

and Sarah and somebody else, that sort of thing.

So it's just not the Hubbard, the two of them

back and forth.

"The other -- there was another file on

Hubbard's divorce from Sarah, and then there

was another file which was Sarah's notebook, some

of her writings, and there may have been more

files in which she was mentioned, or there may

be a document relating to her in these files.

"Those are the three main files, all of

which I handled in basically the same way as

what we've covered.

"Q Where did you obtain these? What

were the source of these documents?

"A Part of it came from the Del Sole

archives, part of it from the Pers Sec archives,

some of it from Worldwide archives. Little bits

of pieces from each place.

"Q And then did you similarly provide

copies of these to Mr. Garrison?

"A Yes.

"Q Did you read these letters and the

793

various related documents?

"A Most of them.

"Q Then did you obtain copies from

Mr. Garrison subsequent to leaving the Church?

"A It's very possible.

"Q Do you recall sending any of these

materials, Sarah letters and related documents,

to Mr. Flynn?

"A It's possible.

"Q You don't recall specifically whether

you did send those to Mr. Flynn?

"A The same thing would apply. It

would have been in this bunch of materials. They

would been copies of whatever Omar had,

and they just would have been sent off along with

several thousand other documents."

From the October 28, 1983 deposition transcript,

page 264, line 2 through line 21:

"Q Well, maybe you can explain it to

me. Was there within the archives materials

that you were working with while you held the

archives position some documents that had been labeled

or identified 'Affirmations'?

"A That is correct.

"Q Can you explain to me what these

were.

"A Affirmations were handwritten

materials, handwritten by L. Ron Hubbard, which

794

went over various of his problems, and they were

self-hypnotic commands that he was writing to

himself, affirmations. And they were from the

late 1940's, and they referred to his work career,

his physical and mental condition, that sort of

thing.

"Q Then, were these separate documents,

or were they all one document? How were they

physically compiled?

"A They were assorted. There's a number

from the same kind of period or same style of

writing.

"Q And these were handwritten --

"A Yes.

"Q -- by Mr. Hubbard?

"A Yes."

From page 264 beginning at line 27, going to

page 265, through 20 of the same deposition transcript:

"Q And these were in the nature of

personal notes or personal thoughts or ideas?

Is that essentially what these documents consisted

of?

"A Personal writings.

"Q Approximately how many different

documents are we talking about?

"A Maybe six.

"Q And they all come roughly from the

late 1940's?

795

"A Yes.

"Q While you were holding the archives

post, where did you obtain these documents?

"A They originally came from the boxes

in Del Sol on the Gilman Hot Springs property.

"Q And did you transfer those materials

to Mr. Garrison?

"A Yes.

"Q Approximately when did you make

that transfer?

"A I don't recall. Some time I guess in

1981.

"Q That was why you were holding the

archives post?

"A Yeah."

Then going to the same page, line 26

continuing through page 266, line 21:

"Q Did you subsequently send these materials

to Mr. Flynn?"

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, these materials refer

to materials that is in prior questions.

MR. LITT: All right. I will withdraw the question.

I will read beginning at line 21 of page 265:

"Q Do you know if there are documents

in there that contain the term 'blood ritual'?

"A I believe so, yes.

"Q Did you read all these documents?

"A Yes.

796

"Q Did you subsequently send these

materials to Mr. Flynn?

"A I don't know if I sent them to

him. I possibly did. I -- I possibly did.

"Q Well, let me ask you this: Did you

obtain from Mr. Garrison -- subsequent to having

delivered them to Mr. Garrison, did you then

go back and obtain then again from Mr. Garrison?

"A Yeah, I borrowed them for copying.

"Q So you borrowed these documents from

Mr. Garrison, made copies, and then returned

the originals to Mr. Garrison? Or did you retain

the originals?

"A No. He had the originals.

"Q So you took them, copied the original

documents, returned the originals, and retained

in your possession the copies?

"A Yes. I am pretty sure that that's the

way it was.

"Q When did this approximately take

place?

"A Some time in the spring of '82.

"Q Did you send copies of those

documents to anybody other than Mr. Flynn?

"A I think -- well, I think a copy went

to Contos & Bunch. I think but I'm not certain."

From page 267 of the same deposition transcript

lines 4 through 12:

797

"Q Did you show anybody, as far as you

can recall, any of these documents?

"A Yeah.

"Q Who did you show these to?

"A Jim and Nancy Dincalci and David Brown.

"Q And approximately when did that

take place?

"A Those were the only ones.

"Oh, May, June, July, some time in the --

probably in the summer of '82."

From the October 28th deposition transcript

page 280, line 21 through page 281, line 17:

"Q Are you familiar with a document

that would be Mr. Hubbard's war time journal?

"A Yeah.

"Q Do you recall that being one of the

documents that you had in your possession as the

archivist?

"A I believe so.

"Q Can you describe to me what form this

document took?

"A It was a -- began in I believe in

1943, and it carried on for a few months, and

it was Hubbard's writing about his life, about --

yeah, it was mainly about his ideas, his thoughts,

his life, incidents in his life, his attitude

toward the military, toward various things.

798

"Q Was it in the form of a notebook

of some kind, or were they loose papers, or how

was it compiled when it came into your

possession?

"A It was loose papers.

"Q Were these originals, or copies?

"A Originals.

"Q And approximately how many pages?

"A A hundred.

"Q Then did you follow the same

procedure you've outlined with these other

materials; make a copy and provide the copy to

Mr. Garrison?

"A I believe it was the same."

On page 282, line 11 through 23, I can read the

interim, but the question refers to the war-time journals.

So I have left it out because it is redundant for any other

purpose.

"Q And did you make a copy of that?

"A Yes.

"Q One or more than one?

"A I believe only one.

"Q And did you then return the

binder to Mr. Garrison and retain the copy you

made?

"A Yes.

"Q Then did you retain that in your

possession for some time?

	799
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	"A Yes. "Q And then send it to Mr. Flynn? "A I -- I don't know if it was amongst that stuff or not. I can't say for sure." From the deposition transcript of page -- MR. FLYNN: How about the rest of that answer? MR. LITT: the rest of it is nonresponsive, Your Honor. And I didn't include it as not answering the question. THE COURT: I don't see any reason to go into it at this time. MR. LITT: From the October 28, 1983 deposition transcript, page 332, beginning at line 26 and continuing through page 333 and continuing through page 334, line 18. "Q We were discussing earlier the war-time diary of Mr. Hubbard. Were there any other diaries that you obtained during the course of your archives work, diaries or journals or similar types of documents?" Ms. Dragojevic makes a comment and the question is clarified: "Of Mr. Hubbard. "Q Perhaps what would fit into that classification are what I would call the Asia Diary or Asia Diaries. My recollection, there was one which I perceived as sort of a not -- probably not very factual account of traveling

800

around in the Samoans, Samoans or some other

chain of islands in the Pacific.

The other set, the Asia Diary, is

probably a -- both of these things are very

brief, not many ages.

"Q Approximately how many pages

each?

"A I don't know. One may be 50; one

may be similar or even 100. There were some

writings like that. There were none that were

on the -- that was big a day-to-day kind of

personal writing as the war-time journal.

"Q But these were personal thoughts,

notes, observations of Mr. Hubbard?

"A Right. It was either a

manuscript or personal thoughts.

"Q And you did use the same

procedure that you have described earlier in

how you dealt with these documents?

"A Yes.

"Q You made copies of them;

transferred a copy to Mr. Garrison; left the

originals in the archives?

"A That's correct.

"Q Do you recall where you obtained

the two diaries?

"A Those came from -- so those came

from Del Sol, to the best of my recollection.

801

"Q And did you transfer those to

Mr. Garrison as well --

"A Yes.

"Q -- copies?

"And did you obtain those again

from Mr. Garrison subsequent to leaving the

church?

"A It is possible. If Omar had

designated them as important or wanted them

copied, then I would have copied them.

"Q Do you specifically recall

whether you copied these documents or not?

"A No.

"Q Do you recall whether you sent

copies of these documents to Mr. Flynn?

"A If I did, they would have been

amongst all the other copies which were sent."

From the deposition transcript of October 28,

page 271, lines 17 through 21:

"Q Now, there's another set of

materials that were in your possession when

you were the archivist which I think were labeled

'LRH Letters to Polly' or something along those

lines; are you familiar with those?

"A Yes."

And, again, in order to save time, I have moved

to page 272, referring to the letters which have just been

described. Beginning at line 22, continuing through page

802

273 at line 21:

"Q And do you know approximately how

many letters there were in the seven binders?

Your estimate?

"A Maybe a couple hundred.

"Q And these were letters between

L. Ron Hubbard and Polly?

"A Yes.

"Q Who is Polly?

"A Polly is L. Ron Hubbard's first

wife.

"Q During what time period were

these letters exchanged?

"A 1932 through 1947, '48.

"Q These were personal letters

between Mr. Hubbard and his wife; is that

correct?

"A That's correct.

"Q Did you read these letters?

"A Yes.

"Q Approximately when did you take

these binders to Omar Garrison, the one set of

copies?

"A 1980.

"Q 1980. So it was among the

earlier materials you transferred to

Mr. Garrison?

"A Yes.

803

"Q And then did you subsequently,

after leaving the church, go back to

Mr. Garrison and make another set of copies of

these?

"A That's correct.

"Q And when, approximately, did that

take place?

"A Spring of 1982."

MR. LITT: Then, again, for the saving of time, moving

to page 274, line 7 through line 9, inquiring concerning the

same set of letters:

"Q But did you at some point send

these to Mr. Flynn?

"A That's correct."

The deposition transcript of October 28, 1983,

page 276 beginning at line 25 and continuing through page

277 at line 7:

"Q All right. Now, let's discuss

the letters between Mr. Hubbard and his mother

and father. Do you recall such correspondence

coming into your possession while you were in

the archives post?

"A Yes.

"Q And where did you obtain those

materials?

"A From the Del Sol location and

from the controller archives and from Pers Sec

archives.

804

"Q Now, approximately how many

letters were there of this nature as far as you

can recall?

"A I'd say roughly several hundred."

Moving down the same page, line 28, referring to

this set of materials, and going through page 278, line 8:

"Q Approximately when did you

transfer this set of binders to Mr. Garrison?

"A Throughout 1981.

"Q Do you recall during what time

period these letters were exchanged between

Mr. Hubbard and his parents?

"A 1920 through 1974.

"Q And these were personal

correspondence, were they not?

"A Some and some not.

"Q What were not?

"A Anything that had to do with

Dianetics."

On page 279, continuing to refer to the same set

of materials, the letters between Mr. Hubbard and his

parents. Beginning at line 9:

805

"Q So some of the contents of these

letters had to do with the organizational matters,

and others had to do with personal matters?

"A Right.

"Q Then after leaving the church, did

you go to Mr. Garrison and obtain these binders

that you had earlier delivered to him?

"A He gave me the binders for copying.

"Q I see.

"A I did it as a service to him. I

paid for the copying."

And then continuing to refer to the same set

of materials on page 279 beginning at line 27 and continuing

through page 280, line 3:

"Q And then did you send those, that

second-generation set of copies, to Mr. Flynn?

"A Some time later.

"Q Approximately how much later?

"A Some months."

From the deposition transcript of October 28,

1983 page 287 beginning at line 16 and continuing through

page 288 line 20:

"Q All right. Now, let's proceed to

letters from Mr. Hubbard -- or exchange of

correspondence between Mr. Hubbard and Helen O'Brien,

and maybe we can include letters between Mr. Hubbard

and John Nogabower. Do you recall these --

"A Yes.

806

"Q -- letters?

"Do you recall both the Helen O'Brien

letters and the John Nogabower letters?

"A No. Well, I don't recall any Nogabower,

but it could be.

"Q You do recall the O'Brien letters?

"A She was married to Nogabower, so it

was possible.

"Q When did you obtain these documents

while you were on the archivist post?

"A They came from Hubbard's archives and

Del Sol. They came from Pers Sec archives, and

they came from Controller archives, and they came

from Helen O'Brien.

"Q When you had compiled these letters from

these various sources, approximately how many letters

were involved?

"A May 50, 60.

"Q And were these in fact letters from

L. Ron Hubbard to O'Brien and possibly from

Nogabower and from O' Brien to Mr. Hubbard?

In other words, correspondence went both ways?

"A I believe so.

"Q Were these original letters that

you took into your possession at that point?

"A Some may have been copies. The bulk

as I recall were originals.

"Q And then did you make copies of those

807

letters similarly to the other materials that we've

discussed?

"A Yes."

And then on page 289 continuing to discuss the

O'Brien letters beginning at line 11 and going through line 24:

"Q Were these in a binder form similar

to the others?

"A Yes.

"Q How many binders if you recall?

"A I believe two.

"Q Then did you copy these two binders

that you obtained from Mr. Garrison?

"A Yes.

"Q And did you return the bound set to

Mr. Garrison and keep in your possession the

copies?

"A Yes.

"Q And did you later send those materials

to Mr. Flynn?

"A To the best of my recollection,

yes."

And from the October 28 deposition, page 291,

lines 4 through 15:

"Q Do you recall letters and dispatches

from Mr. Hubbard to Mary Sue Hubbard and similar

letters to his attorneys, including Leonard Boudin,

from the 1977-78 period?

"A Let me get this straight. You are

808

asking about a group or classification of letters,

some of them between Mary Sue Hubbard and

Mr. Hubbard and some of them to Mr. Hubbard's

attorney Boudin --

"Q That's right.

"A -- from Mr. Hubbard?

"Q Or vice versa, or from Mr. Boudin to

Mr. Hubbard.

"A Yes."

Moving over to page 295 which is still

discussing this same set of materials that have been

described on page 291, lines 21 through 25:

"Q So it is your recollection that

you sent either copies of these materials or the

materials themselves to Mr. Flynn, or do you

not recall?

"A I believe to the best of my recollection

I sent those."

And from the October 28, 1983 deposition

transcript page 316, lines 27 going through page 317, line 3:

	809
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28	"Q Let me ask you about the Hubbard Naval Records; were these also among the documents that you obtained in your capacity as archivist? "A The ones that I obtained in my capacity of archivist, I did that." MR. LITT: That completes, Your Honor, the reading. MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, Mr. Litt had represented that he was loaning me these copies and was going to take them back. With the court's permission, could I reborrow them over the weekend and Xerox them and return them to him on Monday so that I could be able to go through and compare the context of what had been read to the complete transcript? MR. LITT: He can keep it, Your Honor. THE COURT: He just offered to let you have them. We'll take about a five-minute recess. I think I have just about completed going through those inventories. Maybe I can finish it up in five minutes. (Recess.)

810

THE COURT: Okay, in the case on trial let the record

reflect that counsel are present.

Well, gentlemen, counsel and ladies, I have

reviewed I have reviewd these inventories that were supplied

this morning by Mr. Harris, and I have crossed out in grease

pencil a variety of comments which liberally I an construing

as attorney's work product consisting of interpretations,

opinions, and so forth, and in some instances statements

to whoever might read these.

First, I don't believe there is any privilege

on these, attorney-client privilege because these are not

confidential matters. Matters are not down in the clerk's

office. They are up here, are not confidential on the matters

returned by Mr. Garrison after what we have heard here were

all delivered by Mr. Armstrong to Mr. Garrison to begin with,

and so I think that under those circumstances I should let

the plaintiff see what I have done.

Most everything I have crossed out is relatively

inoccuous anyway. In any way, I will let him see what I have

done.

If you want o Xerox these so that the -- what

has been crossed out so that it can be given to the defense

in that fashion, you may do so or return it to me with any

other suggestions you want to make. But my intention would

be to release this to the defense so they can defend against

the charges here.

811

MR. LITT: Your Honor, we would ask that if it is

going to be provided to the defense, that it be provided to

them under seal for use only in this case. We don't --

THE COURT: Well, I'll grant that motion, that they be

undivulged other than as referred to in court, in open court

in the process of examination or cross-examining witnesses

or used in evidence.

MR. LITT: And our other inquiry, Your Honor, if there

is going to be an exchange of inventories or if we are going

to be asked to provide our inventories, we would like a

representation from the defendant as to whether they have

any inventory and, if so, would like it produced. We don't

know whether they have or not.

MR. FLYNN: Unfortunately, we don't have the manpower

that the plaintiff and the intervenor have. We have no

inventory other than what we have provided the court and

Mr. Litt already.

MR. LITT: Is that a reference to the exhibit list?

MR. FLYNN: The exhibit list.

THE COURT: I don't know whether you want to review

these first.

MR. HARRIS: We would, Your Honor.

THE COURT: If you will, return them Monday with the

Xeroxed copies. I'll look them over and deliver them to the

defense.

MR. FLYNN: I assume now as I read this rule that

Mr. Armstrong cannot be called to the witness stand by the

plaintiff or the intervenor.

812

THE COURT: I didn't say that. They are free to call

him if they want to. I assume that is why they read this,

because they didn't want to call him in their case in chief.

I'm just speculating.

MR. FLYNN: The ruling is that they are still able to

call him as a witness?

THE COURT: yes.

MR. FLYNN: Secondly, I would like some idea, if I

could, Your Honor, when the plaintiff intends to rest so I

can have some witnesses here.

MR. HARRIS: We'll rest when we are done, Your Honor.

MR. FLYNN: If they can give me some idea, Your Honor.

THE COURT: What do you think is in store for us?

MR. HARRIS: It depends on the cross-examination, Your

Honor.

I would say we probably have four witnesses.

MR. LITT: Direct won't be more than a maximum of four

hours.

THE COURT: Maybe two days, if all were to go well.

You can renew the request Monday afternoon.

We'll see where we are Monday afternoon.

We are in recess until 9:30 Monday.

(At 4:12 p.m. an adjournment was taken,

until Monday, May 7,m 1984, at 9:30 a.m.)

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