12 March 1984
DEBRIEF - GERRY ARMSTRONG MEETING - 8 MARCH 84
I met with Gerry Armstrong on Thursday, 8 March 84
see if I could do any kind of a handling on him to get him to
knock off the war and back out of the suit or anything in this
I phoned him on Tuesday the 6th and told him that I
would like to meet with him as a friend to see if I could help
him in any way. He was agreeable to a meeting, I asked if he
was going to bring his wife and he said he would see if she
wanted to come and if she did then she would come, otherwise she
wouldn't. (He was in Apathy/Boredom)
On Thursday I met with him at 10:00 in the morning
at the Griffith Park Observatory. I arrived 20 minutes late.
They drove up behind me, but I found out they had waited waited 20
minutes and given up, they left but saw me coming coming the hill so
turned around and came back. So they definitely wanted the
meeting. His wife did come so I asked if she could wait for
us as I wanted to speak to him alone. They agreed to this.
From the point that he had gotten out of the car,
looked very hostile with a very stern face. His eyes and face
looked very insane.
He came over to me and we walked away to talk and I
just opened up with regular small talk but the first thing he
did was stick his notebook in my face and written on it was
"You said that you could help me, so how can you help me?"
Anytime I tried to say something to him, he would
put the notebook in front of me without saying a word, in other
words, he didn't want to give me any information or get into
anything other than hear what I had to say and how I could help.
I told him that I just wanted to see him uninvolved
from all this, I didn't think he needed to keep carrying on
this war and that he could end it just by getting out of the
suit before it got worse for him and before he ended up owing
even more money.
He started to rant and rave to me about how
and LRH had lost him 15 years of his life because it had done
him in and jerked him around and screwed him over and so on
and so on, ranting and raving insanely. He definitely wanted to get
out of the suit but has a $100 to $150,000.00 debt to his attorneys
which he absolutely must pay as they are his "friends" and he
"owes them his life for saving him from all this".
pointed out that he stole the documents and started
this whole thing himself, all he had to do was give back the
documents and he could end the whole thing. He disagreed of
course that he had stolen the documents and said that those
documents are vital to proving that he's been screwed around
and jerked around with for years. He wants his pc folders
very much so that he can regain his sanity by "sorting out
what Scientology did to him and unravel it". He kept hinting
at wanting some sort of an offer from the Church to help him
pay off the attorneys as he is not willing to step out of this
and be left economically busted for the rest of his life, as
he puts it. I pointed out that there is no way that the
Church is going to pay any of his attorney bills as he stole
the documents and started the whole thing - the best he can do
is to get out before it's worse.
I told him about the recent win in the LA case
judge ruled that Scientology is a religion etc., etc.... He
mentioned that he didn't know about this, but so what type of a
He would consistently rant and rave about how
Scientology is screwing the world and it's worse than the
government and this and that. He would flip into about 100
different valences all at once. He said that he still thinks I'm
over the litigation and who am I going to go back and report to
and did I get what I came for and here I am just jerking him
around like all the others. He saw Marty already and he got
jerked around by Marty and now he's getting jerked around by me.
I told him he was jerking me around as I came as a
friend to talk to him and he wasn't even willing to talk he
just ranted and raved about things that I don't even want to
hear, and he might think and believe those thing on
Scientology and LRH and that's fine but there's millions of
other people who don't and I don't and I didn't come here to
listen to him carry on about this bullshit. At this point he
would knock it off as he could see that I was willing to end
the meeting if he did continue. Then we would start having a
somewhat sane discussion for a few minutes before the ranting
and raving started up again. He compulsively had to rant and
rave about Scientology and LRH.
Then he started telling me about his little bird
has at home and how it speaks 100 different words and it's the
sanest part of his life. And then in the middle of this decent
conversation, he blurts out "And don't you send one of your
people around to kill him!".
He is constantly on the alert and look out for
in the bush that we have planted to kill him. While we were
up at Griffith Park he would constantly look around, in the
bushes and check everywhere in case I had set him up.
Somebody burst a balloon up there and he almost had a heart
attack thinking someone had fired a shot at him.
He said that Scientology has operations out on him
trying to kill him and someone (one of us) tried to run him
off the freeway and so on. Then he said that he would rather
be dead than fighting this way and maybe we would do him the
favor of killing him because then it would be all over and he
wouldn't have to worry about it anymore and he'd be dead. He
said how he can't have any friends because he's afraid of
getting close to anybody in case they're a spy for Scientology
or whatever. He brought up the SP declare and all the things
that are stated in it and how they were not true and they're
very out of hand. He again mentioned his pc folders and asked
me if I could pass on a message that he wanted his pc folders
back. He then asked me to take a message back - "Here I'll
give you something to take back to them ...If I delivered all
the documents to the Church, would they agree they could never
be made public under any circumstances, or barring that, under
what circumstances would they be made public?" He said "Ask
them that, I'd like to know that."
I then asked. him why he wanted to know the above
way he said it was very different from the way he had just been
carrying on - it was like a change in his insane ravings and it
didn't fit in with his other statements, so I asked him why did
he want to know this.
He didn't answer me for awhile (he was sort of
daydreaming) and then finally said he didn't know and didn't
care and he didn't really want the answer to the question
anyway, he just threw it out there and it wasn't really him
asking the question anyway. He didn't ask the question, he
didn't want to know, it was just during one of his moments of
insanity. He said that this whole case and procedure is
driving him insane.
I told him I was sorry I couldn't be of more help,
if in the future there was some way I could help him, he could
give me a call, he had my phone number already, so I left the
line open for the future. I recommended to him that he take a
vacation to get away from it all and just let himself
destimulate. He said he can't because he's got a trial coming
up on the 22nd of March. We started walking back towards the
cars and as I walked towards my car, he said "where are you
going?", I said "I'm going to my car", he said "Well,
(obviously stalling and wanting to still continue the
conversation but not really knowing what to say), he then said
"Well don't you want to talk to Jocelyn?" (his wife). I said
if you want me to I will. He said "Well I think she might want
to talk to you or I think it would be good if you talk to
her." We went over to where his wife was standing.
As soon as we got there he switched again to a
different valence and in a very 1.1 type comment he said "So
did you get what you came here for? Are you satisfied? Did
you get the data you wanted?" She caught on that something was
strange and said "Are you finished talking or do you want me
to leave while you continue your discussions?" He said "No,
that's fine, we're done." Then he said to me again, "Well did
you feel you accomplished much?" And I said, 'Well, I'd have
to ask you, because I came here to help you, so if you don't
feel I was any help, then obviously not." That shut him up and
he stopped attacking me. He asked his wife if she wanted to
speak to me and she said "I have nothing to say", so I didn't
speak with her. I just gave her a friendly smile and
indicated we could talk if she wanted to. She didn't. We
walked towards the cars and he asked me if my last name was
still Gamboa and I said it was. And then we bid each other
good-bye and drove away.
To sun it up, he was pretty nutso and very hard to
communicate with as he would be in the middle of a ranting
and raving insanity and I'd find that I mould have to constantly try
and communicate through this. I'd get him to knock it off for a
second so that I could actually communicate to him and this
would actually work, but then within the next couple of minutes
he'd be back into it again so it wouldn't last long.
I did at least establish a comm line with him and I
think it is something that I can build on in the future if we
want to. He is willing to meet with me and talk with me,
however, he trusts no one. He lives in a world of total fear
and paranoia of everything and everybody.
It is obvious to me and clear by his statements and
actions that he definitely wants out of this suit and he
definitely wants help. But he needs the money to pay off his
attorneys and that's what he's after - he's hoping that the
Church will give him an offer. He has no other way out in his
eyes and no way does he want to drop out of this with a debt
that will last him for the rest of his life.
He is very desperate for a way out and I feel he
be willing to talk to anybody who might have anything to
suggest, only because he'd be hoping that they're going to offer
him something that will actually help.
An important point for him was getting his pc
back as he feels that that's the solution to his future sanity.
He brought this up several times.
A line has been established with him and possibly this
can be built up from here and used again in the future. He is
desparate and he has no way out at this point.